(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

[1971]

i wouldn't use the mixes that fatman came up with... they are flawed if you follow them as recommended. spurr has a much better formula

 

[dizzlekush]

Molybdenum is especially important for us as it's been shown that it is a cofactor of THC Synthase which is one of the proteins responsible for producing THC in cannabis.

I've seen Squiggly claim this as well. Do you have any evidence (e.g. peer-reviewed reference) to support this? I know Mo is used in the artificial synthesis of THC to gain steriocontrol over chirality. Other than that I can find no evidence of Mo being utilized in synthesis of THC in cannabis. As I understand it, its the basic CHNOPS that make up all the known cofactors of THC synthesis, meaning N, P and S r.e. fertilization.

 

[squarepusher]

Hi
i recently went out and bought trace elements premix from plant prod and all the salts to mix myh own Im a med grower for myself and fighting to get my canada dissability so money is a great concern. Ive been reading different recipes and forums and with my dystonia symptoms that worsen when my body is at rest it is next to impossible for me to sit and read and read through the forums You and crysmatic have so much out there on mixing your own and kodos to yas I wish I didnt have this damn disease because id be there with ya all and up to my ears in formulas and trials and tribulations however unfortunatly i can no longer do that. I was trying to figure out how to mix my own a and b of sensi or condisour with all the additves for which ever a and b stock solution for both veg and bloom. If you guys can hook a gal up with a easy to follow recipe and directions for a and b base for veg and grow and an easy directions for the additives for said base or email me the direct links its posted on as ive tried reading threw the forums psotings and my body simply wont allow me to sift through pages and pages without my symptoms getting in the way you would be helping a gal out more than you ll ever know

here is a pretty solid Grow/Veg formula, includes Silica

NO3 61500
NH4 8657
P 8728
K 41505
Mg 10000
Ca 46366
S 7521
Fe 1000
Zn 100
B 41
Mn 205
Cu 33
Mo 34
SiO2 7500


based on what products you have you will have to formulate it from those

 

[squiggly]

Molybdenum is especially important for us as it's been shown that it is a cofactor of THC Synthase which is one of the proteins responsible for producing THC in cannabis.

It is my understanding from reading the article (I believe there is only one) that the Mo is a cofactor for an enzyme which precedes the synthase enzyme in the chain. Which is to say that its a required element for production of precursor molecules--or more specifically substrates for THC-a synthase.

 

[dizzlekush]

It is my understanding from reading the article (I believe there is only one)

I've missed the mentioning of this article, can you tell me what article you're speaking of ( i.e. link or article title)? thanks

 

[squiggly]

I've missed the mentioning of this article, can you tell me what article you're speaking of ( i.e. link or article title)? thanks

Sorry the assumption comes from the fact that terpenophenolic synthesis depends on Molybdenum cofactors (common knowledge from biochemistry).

Since it was demonstrated that THC is derived from CBGA in the chain via THCA synthase, it became a foregone conclusion that Mo was very important. My search turned up several articles out there to that effect so I'll refrain from quoting one specifically.

 

[dizzlekush]

Sorry the assumption comes from the fact that terpenophenolic synthesis depends on Molybdenum cofactors (common knowledge from biochemistry).

If it's such common knowledge than Im sure you'll be able to produce a legitimate citation for your claims. I've read several 'biochemistry' reviews r.e. the uses of molybdenum in plants and have never heard of such a mention so I'm seriously doubting its as common knowledge as you're making it appear.

e.g.

Molybdenum cofactor biosynthesis and molybdenum enzymes.
Schwarz G, Mendel RR.

The molybdenum cofactor (Moco) forms the active site of all eukaryotic molybdenum (Mo) enzymes. Moco consists of molybdenum covalently bound to two sulfur atoms of a unique tricyclic pterin moiety referred to as molybdopterin. Moco is synthesized from GTP by an ancient and conserved biosynthetic pathway that can be divided into four steps involving the biosynthetic intermediates cyclic pyranopterin monophosphate, molybdopterin, and adenylated molybdopterin. In a fifth step, sulfuration or bond formation between Mo and a protein cysteine result in two different catalytic Mo centers. There are four Mo enzymes in plants: (1) nitrate reductase catalyzes the first and rate-limiting step in nitrate assimilation and is structurally similar to the recently identified, (2) peroxisomal sulfite oxidase that detoxifies excessive sulfite. (3) Aldehyde oxidase catalyzes the last step of abscisic acid biosynthesis, and (4) xanthine dehydrogenase is essential for purine degradation and stress response.

Cell biology of molybdenum in plants.
Mendel RR.

The transition element molybdenum (Mo) is of essential importance for (nearly) all biological systems as it is required by enzymes catalyzing important reactions within the cell. The metal itself is biologically inactive unless it is complexed by a special cofactor. With the exception of bacterial nitrogenase, where Mo is a constituent of the FeMo-cofactor, Mo is bound to a pterin, thus forming the molybdenum cofactor (Moco) which is the active compound at the catalytic site of all other Mo-enzymes. In plants, the most prominent Mo-enzymes are nitrate reductase, sulfite oxidase, xanthine dehydrogenase, aldehyde oxidase, and the mitochondrial amidoxime reductase. The biosynthesis of Moco involves the complex interaction of six proteins and is a process of four steps, which also includes iron as well as copper in an indispensable way. After its synthesis, Moco is distributed to the apoproteins of Mo-enzymes by Moco-carrier/binding proteins that also participate in Moco-insertion into the cognate apoproteins. Xanthine dehydrogenase and aldehyde oxidase, but not the other Mo-enzymes, require a final step of posttranslational activation of their catalytic Mo-center for becoming active.

Molybdoenzymes and molybdenum cofactor in plants.
Mendel RR, Hänsch R.

The transition element molybdenum (Mo) is essential for (nearly) all organisms and occurs in more than 40 enzymes catalysing diverse redox reactions, however, only four of them have been found in plants. (1) Nitrate reductase catalyses the key step in inorganic nitrogen assimilation, (2) aldehyde oxidase(s) have been shown to catalyse the last step in the biosynthesis of the phytohormone abscisic acid, (3) xanthine dehydrogenase is involved in purine catabolism and stress reactions, and (4) sulphite oxidase is probably involved in detoxifying excess sulphite. Among Mo-enzymes, the alignment of amino acid sequences permits domains that are well conserved to be defined. With the exception of bacterial nitrogenase, Mo-enzymes share a similar pterin compound at their catalytic sites, the molybdenum cofactor. Mo itself seems to be biologically inactive unless it is complexed by the cofactor. This molybdenum cofactor combines with diverse apoproteins where it is responsible for the correct anchoring and positioning of the Mo-centre within the holo-enzyme so that the Mo-centre can interact with other components of the enzyme's electron transport chain. A model for the three-step biosynthesis of Moco involving the complex interaction of six proteins will be described. A putative Moco-storage protein distributing Moco to the apoproteins of Mo-enzymes will be discussed. After insertion, xanthine dehydrogenase and aldehyde oxidase, but not nitrate reductase and sulphite oxidase, require the addition of a terminal sulphur ligand to their Mo-site, which is catalysed by the sulphur transferase ABA3.

Im not cherry-picking reviews here. There's literally at least a dozen dating up to 2012 that have no mention of what you're speaking of.

 

[squiggly]

If its such common knowledge than im sure you'll be able to produce a citation for your claims. I've read several 'biochemistry' reviews r.e. the use of molybdenum in plants and have never heard of such a mention so im seriously doubting its as common knowledge as you're making it appear.

Molybdenum is a common cofactor in carbon cycles. It provides oxidative power to many such cycles. This includes isoprene biosynthesis which is an absolute requirement for tepenophenolic synthesis to progress.

Sorry dude I don't have a citation for you. I suppose if you want to go back and look through my professors biochemistry lectures from my undergrad you'd find what you're looking for there.

Many things such as this are often left out of discussion on the larger scale (ie: plants, larger biological systems, etc) and are instead presented as a basis for the greater understanding of those types of systems. Which is to say that you won't see a discussion about amino acids and their various permutations every time we talk about a protein, nor will we talk about the whole of transcription/translation every time we discuss protein synthesis.

This Mo thing wasn't intended to be inserted into the weed bible. It was just a quip coming from my own personal knowledge. I felt comfortable saying this once CBGA was isolated as a substrate for THCA synthase (still looking for the specific article--there are now many where there used to be one).

 

[squiggly]

I am, however, coming up with similar info as you upon searching around and so I'll have to go check my undergrad notes to be sure I'm not blowing smoke.

 

[squiggly]

I do believe you are correct after some digging. I think I may have intended to refer to manganese instead. Whoopsie :)

 

[dizzlekush]

Molybdenum is a common cofactor in carbon cycles. It provides oxidative power to many such cycles. This includes isoprene biosynthesis which is an absolute requirement for tepenophenolic synthesis to progress.

Sorry dude I don't have a citation for you. I suppose if you want to go back and look through my professors biochemistry lectures from my undergrad you'd find what you're looking for there.

Many things such as this are often left out of discussion on the larger scale (ie: plants, larger biological systems, etc) and are instead presented as a basis for the greater understanding of those types of systems. Which is to say that you won't see a discussion about amino acids and their various permutations every time we talk about a protein, nor will we talk about the whole of transcription/translation every time we discuss protein synthesis.

This Mo thing wasn't intended to be inserted into the weed bible. It was just a quip coming from my own personal knowledge. I felt comfortable saying this once CBGA was isolated as a substrate for THCA synthase (still looking for the specific article--there are now many where there used to be one).

Isoprene biosysynthesis, the Melavonate and Non-melavonate pathways and the Octadecanoid pathways are the only metabolic pathways I've studied in significant detail and again, I've NEVER seen mention of molybdenum in this. Please, all it takes is one decent citation to back your claims. Literally there's at least a dozen reviews that say molybdenum has only 4-5 processes in plants, and they go into great detail of these processes, such as its nuances in nitrogen and sulfur cycles in plants but it never mentions its significance in the formation of any of the metabolites of the MVA or MEP/DOXY pathways. These aren't the kind of reviews to leave out such details.

 

[dizzlekush]

Sorry about the last post. Thanks for the clarification. Well there's at least one study that shows inverse relationships with THC and Mn, so I doubt it has much relevance, if correct, which I believe it is IIRC.

 

[squiggly]

Sorry about the last post. Thanks for the clarification. Well there's at least one study that shows inverse relationships with THC and Mn, so I doubt it has much relevance, if correct, which I believe it is IIRC.

As I'm sure you know some substrates/cofactors have the ability to participate in feedback inhibition such that at optimal levels they accelerate a process and at higher/lower levels they depress it (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16666235). I'm not saying that's the case here but its something to be aware of. It could be about having the right balance rather than simply less or more.

I'll dig deeper and see what I come up with. I have a full plate this summer, but I feel like I said this initially for a reason. I don't typically say chemistry stuff without a pretty solid footing--but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong if I am. Time will tell. Definitely Mo is not what I meant to say.

 

[Seamaiden]

I do believe you are correct after some digging. I think I may have intended to refer to manganese instead. Whoopsie :)

Since this thread is so heavy on the knowledge, if you want anything edited please let me know and I'll be happy to oblige. :) Just shoot me links.

 

[cottonfarmer]

Thanks all you contributors ---- a really enjoyable read except that back-n-forth bit a few pages back between the Desertsquirrel and Crysmatic. With all these different profiles offered up it would seem that the work done by that fellow(s) at CannaStats bears out --- the plant does well across a wide range of nutrient mixes. Of course, us ag farmers learned this early on --- just provide the crop with sufficient amounts and let the roots choose what it needs.

Again, thanks folks......

 

[cottonfarmer]

So...I thought I'd try my hand at HydroBuddy and formulate some Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus.....

....according to Canna Stats nutrient profile calculator the stuff comes out to the following ppms: 37-22-59-1.85 (N-Mg-Ca-Fe) all derived from Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Nitrate, Iron EDTA. I substituted the DPTA for the EDTA. HydroBuddy gives me this --- 49.207-8.02-49.47-1.85.

So...what's wrong here?

 

[squarepusher]

So...I thought I'd try my hand at HydroBuddy and formulate some Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus.....

....according to Canna Stats nutrient profile calculator the stuff comes out to the following ppms: 37-22-59-1.85 (N-Mg-Ca-Fe) all derived from Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Nitrate, Iron EDTA. I substituted the DPTA for the EDTA. HydroBuddy gives me this --- 49.207-8.02-49.47-1.85.

So...what's wrong here?

The formula for 1 Quart of Cal Mag is
168g CaNO3
126 Magnesium Nitrate
8 grams Iron EDTA



Their label numbers don't match up, but remember its guaranteed minimum analysis, their actual formula has about double the nitrogen listen from my guesses.

The Hydro Buddy error you mentioned may just be a programming error, changing Iron sources should not effect Nitrogen or Calcium levels.

 

[cottonfarmer]

squarepusher, thanks for that ---- did you work those numbers out in 'longhand' or from a spreadsheet and what is the dilution rate?

 

[squarepusher]

squarepusher, thanks for that ---- did you work those numbers out in 'longhand' or from a spreadsheet and what is the dilution rate?

spreadsheet, its should be the very similar formula as Botanicare, so you can use their dosage recommendations
1-2 tsp per 4L
Or thats like 1-2 grams salt per 4l

remember that makes 1L size (1 quart), so your total volume of water + salts mixed would be 1L.

 

[cottonfarmer]

Hmmm....with my longhand calcs I come up with these to make 1 liter direct:

310.52mg CaNit
229.17mg MgNit
84mg Fe

I can't match this up to yours --- what am I doing wrong?