(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

[2broke2smoke]

Thank you very much for clearing that up for me crysmatic,

I will read through the above links as well to get a better handle on this. I am a hempy bucket grower, but I would prefer to mix my own nutrients if I just knew how. I have no interest in making Big Mike or any other nutrient manufacturer rich on something that can easily be mixed up at home. Plus I just like the idea of mixing my nutes from scratch, lol.

Kuz, i would like to thank you as well for your attempt to make this clear for me.

2b2s

 

[MeJuana]

You guys seen this downloadable nutrient calculator by Fernandez right? Man I feel so well armed with it, I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet but it is awesome. Gives warnings for bad mixes too!
http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/06/first-free-hydroponic-nutrient.html

 

[Crysmatic]

mixing your own nutes is as easy as making kool-aid...

i just found the annual water report for my town. the stock solution itself will use RO water, but how to I tweak the recipe for hard water? my tap water is just over the upper limit for needing RO water (200 ppm at 0.7 conversion?).

Ca 40 ppm
Mg 20 ppm
CaCO3 180 ppm
EC 0.34

I can easily compensate for calcium and magnesium, but what do I do about the calcium carbonate?? is this much even a concern?

the allhydroponics' calculator will eventually have a 'water quality' tab to deal with these issues.

 

[Crysmatic]

Mixing A B stock solution tutorial:
http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/06/preparing-and-b-solutions-using-my.html

adding 10-15% of nitrogen as ammonia and 20-40 ppm P is enough to keep pH stable...enough
http://allhydroponics.blogspot.com/2010/06/understanding-ph-in-hydroponics-part_04.html

 

[squarepusher]

yes the allhydroponics site is a great resource, the owner there Daniel is exceptionally knowledgeable too .

 

[Crysmatic]

I just mixed up 4L A/B solutions. I'm going to use it on my blueberry jam. fwiw, fatman's bloom works out to 3-1-4 (3-0-3 + 0-1-1). They are roughly 1.1 g/ml. If you use a bloom booster with 0-1-2 ratio you get 3-3-8, which is what Jalisko Kid recommends at full bloom.

As far as making a 200:1 solution; in hot water, everything dissolved in less than 2L of RO water. I can't say whether salts will precipitate once the water cools.

I got pretty much everything I needed from the DNF six pack to make 4L stock solutions. The only thing bothering me are the trace minerals. DNF has a trace mix in the six pack, but the ratios are way off Fatman's. They also mix the iron with the micros, whereas the iron should be in part A, and the micros in part B. Iron apparently doesn't mix with phosphates. Can I add DNF micro mix to part B?

After re-reading Fatman's thread, he uses 3x Lucas formula's micro conc, and 5x Zinc. If GH keeps plants healthy with their micro profile, why triple the concentration? Is it worth adding all chelated micros like AN con?

Lucas / Fatman / DNF
Iron 3.33 / 10.0 / 10.5
Boron 1.67 / 5.0 / 2.0
Manganese 1.67 / 5.0 / 3.0
Zinc 1.0 / 5.0 / 0.6
Copper 0.33 / 1.0 / 0.15
Molybdenum 0.03 / 0.09 / 1.0

I tried to fall between Fatman and Lucas, and I end up with 85% less copper and Zinc, and 1100% more Molybdenum. DNF says on the bottle that the conc of Mo that they use is 'toxic to ruminants'. Will that much Mo hurt plants?

the link to Grow More's Iron EDDHA is 6% iron. So if I want 10 ppm, in a 100:1 solution, I need 4L x 10 mg/L x 100 / 0.06 = 66.7 g. The iron EDTA in the calculator must be 12% because it only calls for 31.2g. Is that right?

 

[Crysmatic]

fyi, the botanist at crop king told me that edta is toxic to plants. i bought the iron dpta. the other micros are sulphates. i think you can get more micros available to the plant, cheaper, by going with sulphates, vs using fewer, more expensive (and harder to obtain) chelated micros. i think this is why fatman boosted micro values. both stock solutions cost me under $12 in minerals, and $1 for RO water. i can buy the macros in bulk too and further reduce cost.

dnf's 130g 'bloom fortifier' 0-50-30 cost me $20, and they have potassium phosphate (it's the same thing) on the shelf next to it for $7 per 500g! on a good note, their $6 micro mix has so much molybdenum, that it's a cheaper than crop king's molybdenum sulphate and it hardly affects the other micros! (i subtract 10% from the iron)

 

[MeJuana]

I don't have a lot to say but I am reading so please keep posting, gonna find the rep button for you.. :D Crysmatic that is

Edit: Ok I can't give you anymore rep until I find someone else deserving enough first LOL

 

[squarepusher]

whats DNF?

 

[budboy299]

Dutch nutrient formula.....brand of nutes put out by homegrown hydroponics I believe.
Thats what DNF is around my parts

 

[kuz]

I just mixed up 4L A/B solutions. I'm going to use it on my blueberry jam. fwiw, fatman's bloom works out to 3-1-4 (3-0-3 + 0-1-1). They are roughly 1.1 g/ml. If you use a bloom booster with 0-1-2 ratio you get 3-3-8, which is what Jalisko Kid recommends at full bloom.

What are the ppm's.

N 120, p 37, k 130, Mg 44, Ca 118, S 55 base
N 120, p 54, k 167, Mg 44, Ca 118, S 71 week 1 flower
N 120, p 54, k 200, Mg 44, Ca 118, S 85 week 2 flower
N 120, p 71, k 222, mg 44, Ca 118, S 85 week 3 flower
N 120, p 88, k 244, Mg 44, Ca 118, S 85 week 4 flower


Thats the best I came up with using a two part base with DNF six pack. There is no potasium sulphate in the base. Add potasium sulphate and mkp to the base every week.

 

[Crysmatic]

sorry if i wasn't clear. the dutch nutrient formula (homegrown brand) six pack has:

#1 calcium nitrate
#2 potassium sulphate
#3 potassium nitrate
#4 potassium phosphate
#5 magnesium sulphate
#6 trace elements
ammonium nitrate

i use 10% ammonium to buffer the solution. if i run RO water, i would use 547g calcium nitrate (240 ppm) and no ammonium. calcium ppm goes to 235 ppm, and i increase Mg to 74 ppm (300g). this is still fatman's dtw bloom formula.

carbonates apparently are good buffers, while phosphorus isn't a good buffer (allhydro). i'm running dtw, so pH drift isn't a big concern.

i adjusted for my tap water, which has 40 ppm calcium, and 20 ppm magnesium. so 160 ppm calcium, plus 40 in the water, gives 200 ppm - which is between 0.8-1.0 of the nitrogen. i feed at 1.0 mS, so i'm not hitting these ppm anyway. incidentally, i watered my plants today with miracle grow 24-8-16 - good ratios, it doesn't dissolve well, and the blue dye makes it hard to use my pH test drops.

NO3 215 ppm
NH4 25
total N 240
P2O5 35
K2O 261
Ca 160
Mg 54

iron DPTA 10
Boron 5
Manganese 5
Zinc 3
Copper 1
Molybdenum 0.09

i'm buying all the trace elements from crop king, and i use dnf #6 to get my molybdenum. note that hydro buddy (calculator) uses the salts which can be bought from crop king.

Part A
Ca(NO3)2 378g
NH4NO3 143g
KNO3 225g
Fe DPTA 28.3g

Part B
KH2PO4 61.5g
MgSO4 219g
MnSO4 6.1g
H3BO4 11.4g
ZnSO4 5.3g
CuSO4 1.6g
Mo (from #6) 5.5g

to make 1L 100:1 solution to give me 85 ppm P and 265 ppm K, i would add 37.3g MKP and 35.3g K2SO4 to get 0-7-14 (about $1.15). what % EC increase should i aim for using the pk boost?

 

[kuz]

sorry if i wasn't clear. the dutch nutrient formula (homegrown brand) six pack has:

Your clear, i just dont get ratio's. Your npk is 240-35-261, i would just divide everything by 35.

I gathered up some ppm numbers, mostly from Jalisco Kid in his "fert formula" thread.

120-60-280-60-120 Jalisco Kid start
120-90-325-60-120 Jalisco Kid peak
240-74-261-84-235 Fatman
149-50-386-45-145 budboy299 six pack
164-75-205-48-28* AN 15 ml A and B.
164-116-360-48-161 above with big bud
106-92-154-53-106 10 ml floranova bloom
77-150-281-37-74 2.5ml hammerhead, 1 ml moab, 7 ml floranova bloom
130-106-183-73-130 lucas. 8 ml gh micro, 16 ml gh bloom
140-88-189-54-116 lucas floranova. 8ml bloom, 3 ml micro.
159-92-219-66 GH 3 part. 5 ml grow, 10 micro, 15 bloom
138-60-316-42 Canna Aqua flores. 3 ml/liter each of a and b.

Just 2.5 ml's of hammerhead and 1 ml of moab per gallon gives you 86 ppm P and 173 K by itself, so that might be a little much with 1/2 strength of the base.

Budboy299 gave a six pack recipe in his bloom additives thread. I like that recipe along with the moab and hammerhead. Its going to take some more work to figure where to start and how fast to increase EC to peak where you think you should and just how high to push P and K.

 

[MeJuana]

There seems to be several elemental salts you can use how did you guys know for sure you were getting the right ones? I believe I will be an A+B solution type.

Has anyone tried to just local source these elemental salts, is this something you would general find at a local fertilizer company or anything?

 

[kuz]

Hydro gardens has everything. I think its safe if you use the basic six pack ingredients. Hydro gardens has a commercial hydro tomato fertilizer and it has the same five as the dnf six pack as well as ammonium phosphate, its 4-18-38 and you add calcium nitrate separate, everything else is mixed together. So it might not be ideal to mix the iron with P, it seems that it works. I think I'll get away from the two part and just have a mix for every week. Except trace elements, mix those all up and use full strength through the grow.

Add Potassium Chloride to the mix and figure out what ppm's you want.

I used the cannastats calc to get the ppms for AN sensi, and its different than what is posted on the first page of this thread. AN feeding chart shows week 2 of bloom at 1000 ppm, that is what DD's did also, using cannastats I get 211-452-789-30-148-85, run that for weeks 2,3, and 4. Switch to overdrive and run 232-138-421-49-148-85 for two weeks, flush last week.

Jackmayoffer would be another good one to copy but I cant find anything about Canna Aqua guaranteed analysis.

 

[MeJuana]

Thx kuz I appreciate it. I guess at the prices of these fets if something doesn't work out, not a huge loss anyway.

 

[Crysmatic]

Your clear, i just dont get ratio's. Your npk is 240-35-261, i would just divide everything by 35.

Its going to take some more work to figure where to start and how fast to increase EC to peak where you think you should and just how high to push P and K.

NPK ratios don't translate to ppm. it gives total N, P2O5 (43.6% P) and K2O (83% K).

i can pump up nutes until tip burn, subract 25%, and add the PK to come to the same total ppm. soil complicates things because you can't perfectly manage nutrients in the root zone.

fatman said that companies purposely have low calcium, and force you to buy calmag. the problem with that is calmag uses calcium nitrate, and skews the nitrogen ratio. my recipe is 3-1-4, a complete two part, adjusted for my local water.

There seems to be several elemental salts you can use how did you guys know for sure you were getting the right ones? I believe I will be an A+B solution type.

Has anyone tried to just local source these elemental salts, is this something you would general find at a local fertilizer company or anything?

calcium nitrate is calcium nitrate, regardless of where you buy it. the only difference might be impurities. hydro buddy calculator bases its recipes on salts available at cropking...but you can find equivalent salts anywhere.

thanks to kuz for the hydro garden link! i've been looking feverishly for someone local...or even in canada. next time i need 25 kg of pot nitrate...

I think I'll get away from the two part and just have a mix for every week. Except trace elements, mix those all up and use full strength through the grow.

I used the cannastats calc to get the ppms for AN sensi, and its different than what is posted on the first page of this thread. AN feeding chart shows week 2 of bloom at 1000 ppm, that is what DD's did also, using cannastats I get 211-452-789-30-148-85, run that for weeks 2,3, and 4. Switch to overdrive and run 232-138-421-49-148-85 for two weeks, flush last week.

2.6-13-12 the first few weeks, then it drops to 3-3.5-8 in full bloom...? AN sensi grow is 3.1-1.1-2.9 - very good per fatman - and add big bud (0-2-4) in weeks 3-6 (per jk).

count on doing several runs to fine tune a different mixture every week! i couldn't tell you how much benefit vs a simple a + b, plus pk. i still have to read jalisco kid's thread.

 

[MeJuana]

Crysmatic thanks to you too.

 

[Crysmatic]

my pleasure mejuana.

this blew my mind. AN released the phosphorusmyth.pdf. stay with me...
hashplant had tissue NPK-CaMg levels of 41000N 9500P 4400K 13000Ca 5000Mg in bloom. If you normalise all the values to P (divide by 9500) you get 4.3-1.0-4.6-1.4-0.5; this is relative ppm values. if you start with 55ppm P, it follows: 237-55-253-77-28. it may be coincidence, but the NPK is very close to fatman's bloom formula. i don't understand the deal with calcium reducing uptake of the other nutrients, or exterior ion concentration need to drive internal concentration. NPK-CaMg values are 4.3-2.3-5.5 1.5-0.5. during veg, the NPK works out to 7-1-7.

AN grow is 6.2-2.2-5.7; bloom is 5.8-6.1-8.8 (CaMg 2.5-1). it's equal to 2.8-1-2.6 grow, 1-1-1.4 bloom (JK recommended a 1-1-2.7 in bloom). ppm works out to 236-108-297-102-41. i'll take a closer look at the full complement of supplements later.

 

[kuz]

100 ppm's

I was looking at AN sensi plus big bud, a lot of people going DoubleD's mpb style. Week 2 of flower DD's was 1000 ppm with sensi and big bud. AN feed schedule; ml per liter; 4 each A and B and 2 big bud, and 2 voodoo juice on week two; ppm 1000. I dont think DD used voodoo juice. I compared the math to cannastats calculator, this time the numbers look right.

4-0-4 part A
1-5-6 part B
5-5-10 combined

4x.05x1000=200.0 N
4x.05x1000=200.0 P
4x.1x1000=400 K

0-1-3 big bud
2x.01x1000=20.0 P
2x.03x1000=60.0 K

Total npk 200-220-460 #'s to use if we want to compare ratio's
Adjust pk 220x.44=96.8 460x.83=381.8
Total npk ppm 200-97-381 #'s adjusted for absolute p and k ppm's.
Fatman bloom 240-74-261

Sensi two part: Ca 140 and mg only 28, that doesnt seem like much Mg. The boost from big bud is fairly mild compared to other supplements. The base is supplying most the nutes. How much does N, P and K go up with every 100 ppm?