(Fatman's) DIY nutrient mixing guide

  • Thread starter squarepusher
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
Lurkin4yrs

Lurkin4yrs

I mix as I go, so I'm normally mixing about 7 grams per gal total (all salts in a qt mason jar about 180grams total) but when I was tring to use the sop52 it would be the only thing sitting at the bottom. I use hot water out of a coffee maker to mix my salts, by the time the other salts (epsom,pot nit,mkp,map) would dissolve(part a mix) the sop52 would just sit there so I worked around it lol. I'll try it again tho

I didn't mean to jack his question

Thanks

-lurkin
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

I'm using K sulfate @10 grams per liter. It's the first thing I add to my stock solutions and the last thing to dissolve! After I make stock solutions I keep a high powered pump in the bottom of my tank that continues to agitate the mix for a few days before I use it. IME K sulfate always leaves undissolved salts behind- mostly dark impurities. My stock tanks are not blackened and I could improve light penetrating them.
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

What is the pH of the stock tank?

Get the stock tanks as dark as you can and seal them up as tight as you can.
 
N

NitroD

2
0
1
This thread is a copy paste to begin with from Fatman's posts on another forum where he is currently banned. This will be a continuation of the discussion and information to those parties who are interested. This is by and large someone elses work that I am opening here for discussion and contribution.

This is a guide for mixing basically any nutrient formula, although there are some specific examples given for Lucas Formula, which is 5-10-9

Resources:
Nutrient Calculator
closed thread


The basis for mixing your own nutrient formulation is rather easy. All nutrients formulas essentially have the same micro/trace nutrients. These are :
Manganese
Boron
Zinc
Copper
Molybdate
Sulfur

in addition to these above trace nutrients, which are found in veerry small amounts, we have the meat and potatoes of nutrient formulas, which is NPK-Ca-Mg
Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Potassium
Calcium
Magnesium

using the following chart, we can construct any nutrient formula using base ingredients
View attachment 87171

for example, doing a "Lucas" Formula, which by the way isn't considered that great of a formula for Cannabis growers, rather a formula that "works," NPK =5-10-9
N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
i.e the Lucas Formula

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014


This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed together in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.

This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.


Reasons for mixing?

There are already hundreds of other manufacturers producing nutrients at much cheaper costs than those sold by AN or GH.

I am saying that given the true analysis of any fertilizer product that the same nutrient of the same quality can be mixed in y a home. The problem lies in that only a few states require that manufacturers supply a completer guaranteed analysis on the fertilizer products. Those states will not allow fertilizer sells in their states without this full disclosure. However these states do not have laws requiring the supplements have a guaranteed analysis on any of the ingredients except the fertilizers they contain. These states presently are trying to pass legislation to require that supplements all have full guaranteed analysis on their packaging. Until that time, it is not practical to try to l keep up with all the game playing companies go through to prevent the information be known.

As far as AN I have the complete analysis on 22 fertilizers produced by them. The others eight formulations contain supplements that they have not willing disclosed. I have the chemical analyisis on the fertilizers but not the analysis of the supplments. As a result those products can not be sold in those states requring c disclosure. However with most of those it is just humic and fulvic acids that have been added. Their supplments I have no information on other than the few that the universtity analyzed. That is not public information so I can not release that info. Just about every manafcturer except AN readily releases full analysis data freely even on their supplements.

Here is the Washington state site for fertilizers. http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilize...iewTable&ltr=G As you will see there are many hundres of fertilizer gurantedd analysis give. All you need to formulate any know n fertilzer is the guranateed anaysis. You will notice though that there are no AN analysis on the Washington State site. AN goes out of its way to make as much maney as it can while it can. Washington state just wont play the AN games so the AN products can not be sold there. It is really as simple as if the U.S. legalized growing pot to morrow AN would probably shut their doors tomorrow. The only thing special about AN products is that they do not release to the the public freely any inforation they can withhold legally or illegally. Its really comical as there are no secrets in the industry. Everyone knows exactly what every one is doing or selling. It's all just a money making scam with AN.

I can send you a mixing recipe for any of the main line AN products or any other mnafacturers products for which you can provide the analysis. I also have many guranteed analysis for formulations (such as AN) that are not on that site.

For a PK booster simply buy monopottassium phosphate. It is used in about 95% of all the competitor two or three part formulas.
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
MKP
(0-52-34)


The closet to a MJ plant is the "hemp" plants grown through out the U.S.. during WW II and just after that time. They found that the plants grow best when fertilized as if they were tobacco, corn silage or fodder when field grown and as foliage plants when green house grown. One does have to consider all the early research geared mainly around growing plant in the vegetative state until the plants started diverting its energy into reproduction. Then the testing went into importing ruderalis and hash strains so as to shorten and bush out the plants as the combines could not handle the ntaural sativa plants which were to tall. It wasn't until the 60's that much research was geared towards improving its possible medicinal qualities.

Consider Green peppers or chiles are 3:1:3, fodder is 3:1:3, spinach is 3:1:4, herbs are 2:1:1.5 while tomatoes are 4:1:5 and very high in calcium. The hydroponic grows in the 50's and 60's showed that MJ responded best to the simple 3:1:2 ratios used for green house foliage type plants. Even AN, low and be hold, who say they are at the forefront of the MJ nutrient field are now putting out Sensi formulas that are nearing the old traditional 3:1:2 formulas of old. Why do I use a near 3:1:2 ratio etc, because over the years I have found it to work the best and have mixed and sold it to dozens of large growers who also swear by it. I also know many commercial growers who mix their own fertilizers and in general they always seem to return to a formula near the standard old 3:1:2 ratio. Recently (the last year or a bit more) has brought about better nutrient delivery systems and therefore allowing increases in the other parameters meaning a k higher potash than from the 3:1:2 ratio.

Lucas is not really a good mix, it is just a fair and simple mix that works. It is a 0.42, 0.83, 1.0 ratio. Nothing like what is really recommended. I really do not know why it made it to the Fad level. I really find it hard to believe that GH even came up with the Flora Bloom formula which is Lucas with humus. It is simply a matter of a manufacturer providing what people want even when it is not a better product. If you actually look at the analysis of GH FloraBloom and Flora micro you would see that Lucas was back ass back wards when he came up with his formula. He advised two parts Bloom to one part Micro. If he would have gone with two parts micro and one part bloom he would have gotten a ratio of 3.3, 1.6, 2 but it would have a mess of calcium at 333 ppm. That high calcium would mean that the reservoir s would likely have to be changed out weekly rather than going for weeks or a full grow by just adding water and more nutrients.

IMHO neither GH or AN make a really good mj nutrient product for hydroponics, especially not for a good aero system with large tubes or chambers. I really doubt they will ever make a good formulation for good intermittent mists systems such as high pressure chamber or atomized chamber. They do not make formulations for commercial growers just hobbyists and it is doubtful enough hobbyists will ever spend the energy, time or money to move up to the better more expensive systems. The more efficient the system is the greater the difference ratios, and balanced pH's mean. Carbonate chemistry is much harder to deal with when TDS levels low right from the beginning as they are with efficient systems. Consider this: the actual recommended calcium to nitrogen ratio for MJ is 0.8-1. How many retailed nutrients out there do you see where the calcium to nitrogen ratio is that high unless the nitrogen level is very low. That is why the retail manufacturers are selling low nitrogen formulas. They sell low nitrogen so they can use lower levels of calcium. Low level calcium formulations make growers happy as they can go longer times between reservoir change outs and so they have to adjust the pH less and worry about magnesium deficiency less.

Basically it means poorer quality nutrients, potency and yields for a given growing time in order to allow for easier maintenance and less grower knowledge. It has become quiet common in the last few years for people to say the use plain tap water without problems. That says a lot about too low calcium levels supplied by manufacturers and that is usually an indication that their Nitrogen levels are really low also. Lately the trends has been high phosphorus and high potash, then throw in high calcium and magnesium at blooming. That is strange as balanced nutrients near or about 3:1:2, calcium of at least half to 1.5 to 3 and magnesium about half on the nitrogen or calcium through out still produce the best results. Calcium is really a very good way to control nutrient up take in efficient systems. As long as the ratio of calcium to magnesium is about 2:1 the calciums high EC means it has a lot of control over the amount of other nutrients that are available.

It is easy to experiment and see that increasing the ratio of calcium lowers uptake and lowering the ratio increases uptake when feeding low ppm nutrients. Kinda mind boggling though. With a captured drain to waste nutrient system allowing tds measurement you would find something like input TDS 600 ppm (with high calcium), drain at 450 ppm. 650 ppm input (low calcium), drain at 350 ppm. That means not only did the plants take up a higher ppm of nutrients but the percentage was also higher in nutrients other than calcium. To gain by this you have to be able to bring your self to almost daily read a nutrient deficiency and antagonist chart though.

I just checked out an add for FloraNova grow and it is 1.75 to 1 to 2.5. So it is swinging closer to 3:1:2 than the original Micro and grow mixed to 3.5:0.5:3.5. The FloraNovaBloom is 4:8:7, and there old Micro and bloom was 2.5:2.5:2.5. Sure seems strange that they only added humic and fulvic acids made from lenoraddite coal but now list the products as organic. I just in the last day or so added humus to the nutrient thread. For those curious, leonardite coal is the brown coal often found mixed in with soft black lignite coal. Some say it is almost coal and almost peat moss. They dissolve the coal with potassium hydroxide, they then add a little phosphoric acid. This form s mushy mass (humic substance) and fulvic acids (the solution). If the just want the humic acid, they pour off the fulvic acid and add water. The water contains humic acids. Usually most manufacturers use/combine the fulvic and humic acids and just call it humus. The new Fad.

For what it is worth for the set ups I use I run formulations of veg 3.26, 1, 3.55 and Bloom of 2.81, 1, 4.4 I am running closer to 3:1:4 rather than 3:1:2. My use of higher potassium is due to the use of tight SOG grows with growing temps around 88 to 92 degrees, very high transpiration due to low ppm nutrients and dehumidification down to around 35 to 40 during veg and 25 to 30 during budding, and lots of CO2.

The general horticultural description of potash as a nutrient: Potassium is a key activator of many enzymes, especially those involved with carbohydrate metabolism. Potassium is also responsible for the control of ion movement through membranes and water status of stomatal apertures. Potassium therefore has a role in controlling plant transpiration and turgor. It is generally associated with plant 'quality' and is necessary for successful initiation of flower buds. As a result the levels of potassium in nutrient solutions are increased as plants enter a 'reproductive' phase, and as crops grow into lower light levels, in order to maintain nutrient balance in solution.


So is the 3:1:2 ratio perfect. No it just seems to be one of the better choices of those nutrient formulas that are available for those who are growing at more common temperatures and humidities. Would added potassium make the formulation better. If you growing parameters are above average, then yes increasing the potash ppm would likely be helpful. If not you will very likely just be adding potassium hydroxide every day anyway so you might as well add it initially instead of adding so much every day by using pH up during budding.



(continued)
This thread is a copy paste to begin with from Fatman's posts on another forum where he is currently banned. This will be a continuation of the discussion and information to those parties who are interested. This is by and large someone elses work that I am opening here for discussion and contribution.

This is a guide for mixing basically any nutrient formula, although there are some specific examples given for Lucas Formula, which is 5-10-9

Resources:
Nutrient Calculator
closed thread


The basis for mixing your own nutrient formulation is rather easy. All nutrients formulas essentially have the same micro/trace nutrients. These are :
Manganese
Boron
Zinc
Copper
Molybdate
Sulfur

in addition to these above trace nutrients, which are found in veerry small amounts, we have the meat and potatoes of nutrient formulas, which is NPK-Ca-Mg
Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Potassium
Calcium
Magnesium

using the following chart, we can construct any nutrient formula using base ingredients
View attachment 87171

for example, doing a "Lucas" Formula, which by the way isn't considered that great of a formula for Cannabis growers, rather a formula that "works," NPK =5-10-9
N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
i.e the Lucas Formula

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014


This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed together in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.

This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.


Reasons for mixing?

There are already hundreds of other manufacturers producing nutrients at much cheaper costs than those sold by AN or GH.

I am saying that given the true analysis of any fertilizer product that the same nutrient of the same quality can be mixed in y a home. The problem lies in that only a few states require that manufacturers supply a completer guaranteed analysis on the fertilizer products. Those states will not allow fertilizer sells in their states without this full disclosure. However these states do not have laws requiring the supplements have a guaranteed analysis on any of the ingredients except the fertilizers they contain. These states presently are trying to pass legislation to require that supplements all have full guaranteed analysis on their packaging. Until that time, it is not practical to try to l keep up with all the game playing companies go through to prevent the information be known.

As far as AN I have the complete analysis on 22 fertilizers produced by them. The others eight formulations contain supplements that they have not willing disclosed. I have the chemical analyisis on the fertilizers but not the analysis of the supplments. As a result those products can not be sold in those states requring c disclosure. However with most of those it is just humic and fulvic acids that have been added. Their supplments I have no information on other than the few that the universtity analyzed. That is not public information so I can not release that info. Just about every manafcturer except AN readily releases full analysis data freely even on their supplements.

Here is the Washington state site for fertilizers. http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilize...iewTable&ltr=G As you will see there are many hundres of fertilizer gurantedd analysis give. All you need to formulate any know n fertilzer is the guranateed anaysis. You will notice though that there are no AN analysis on the Washington State site. AN goes out of its way to make as much maney as it can while it can. Washington state just wont play the AN games so the AN products can not be sold there. It is really as simple as if the U.S. legalized growing pot to morrow AN would probably shut their doors tomorrow. The only thing special about AN products is that they do not release to the the public freely any inforation they can withhold legally or illegally. Its really comical as there are no secrets in the industry. Everyone knows exactly what every one is doing or selling. It's all just a money making scam with AN.

I can send you a mixing recipe for any of the main line AN products or any other mnafacturers products for which you can provide the analysis. I also have many guranteed analysis for formulations (such as AN) that are not on that site.

For a PK booster simply buy monopottassium phosphate. It is used in about 95% of all the competitor two or three part formulas.
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
MKP
(0-52-34)


The closet to a MJ plant is the "hemp" plants grown through out the U.S.. during WW II and just after that time. They found that the plants grow best when fertilized as if they were tobacco, corn silage or fodder when field grown and as foliage plants when green house grown. One does have to consider all the early research geared mainly around growing plant in the vegetative state until the plants started diverting its energy into reproduction. Then the testing went into importing ruderalis and hash strains so as to shorten and bush out the plants as the combines could not handle the ntaural sativa plants which were to tall. It wasn't until the 60's that much research was geared towards improving its possible medicinal qualities.

Consider Green peppers or chiles are 3:1:3, fodder is 3:1:3, spinach is 3:1:4, herbs are 2:1:1.5 while tomatoes are 4:1:5 and very high in calcium. The hydroponic grows in the 50's and 60's showed that MJ responded best to the simple 3:1:2 ratios used for green house foliage type plants. Even AN, low and be hold, who say they are at the forefront of the MJ nutrient field are now putting out Sensi formulas that are nearing the old traditional 3:1:2 formulas of old. Why do I use a near 3:1:2 ratio etc, because over the years I have found it to work the best and have mixed and sold it to dozens of large growers who also swear by it. I also know many commercial growers who mix their own fertilizers and in general they always seem to return to a formula near the standard old 3:1:2 ratio. Recently (the last year or a bit more) has brought about better nutrient delivery systems and therefore allowing increases in the other parameters meaning a k higher potash than from the 3:1:2 ratio.

Lucas is not really a good mix, it is just a fair and simple mix that works. It is a 0.42, 0.83, 1.0 ratio. Nothing like what is really recommended. I really do not know why it made it to the Fad level. I really find it hard to believe that GH even came up with the Flora Bloom formula which is Lucas with humus. It is simply a matter of a manufacturer providing what people want even when it is not a better product. If you actually look at the analysis of GH FloraBloom and Flora micro you would see that Lucas was back ass back wards when he came up with his formula. He advised two parts Bloom to one part Micro. If he would have gone with two parts micro and one part bloom he would have gotten a ratio of 3.3, 1.6, 2 but it would have a mess of calcium at 333 ppm. That high calcium would mean that the reservoir s would likely have to be changed out weekly rather than going for weeks or a full grow by just adding water and more nutrients.

IMHO neither GH or AN make a really good mj nutrient product for hydroponics, especially not for a good aero system with large tubes or chambers. I really doubt they will ever make a good formulation for good intermittent mists systems such as high pressure chamber or atomized chamber. They do not make formulations for commercial growers just hobbyists and it is doubtful enough hobbyists will ever spend the energy, time or money to move up to the better more expensive systems. The more efficient the system is the greater the difference ratios, and balanced pH's mean. Carbonate chemistry is much harder to deal with when TDS levels low right from the beginning as they are with efficient systems. Consider this: the actual recommended calcium to nitrogen ratio for MJ is 0.8-1. How many retailed nutrients out there do you see where the calcium to nitrogen ratio is that high unless the nitrogen level is very low. That is why the retail manufacturers are selling low nitrogen formulas. They sell low nitrogen so they can use lower levels of calcium. Low level calcium formulations make growers happy as they can go longer times between reservoir change outs and so they have to adjust the pH less and worry about magnesium deficiency less.

Basically it means poorer quality nutrients, potency and yields for a given growing time in order to allow for easier maintenance and less grower knowledge. It has become quiet common in the last few years for people to say the use plain tap water without problems. That says a lot about too low calcium levels supplied by manufacturers and that is usually an indication that their Nitrogen levels are really low also. Lately the trends has been high phosphorus and high potash, then throw in high calcium and magnesium at blooming. That is strange as balanced nutrients near or about 3:1:2, calcium of at least half to 1.5 to 3 and magnesium about half on the nitrogen or calcium through out still produce the best results. Calcium is really a very good way to control nutrient up take in efficient systems. As long as the ratio of calcium to magnesium is about 2:1 the calciums high EC means it has a lot of control over the amount of other nutrients that are available.

It is easy to experiment and see that increasing the ratio of calcium lowers uptake and lowering the ratio increases uptake when feeding low ppm nutrients. Kinda mind boggling though. With a captured drain to waste nutrient system allowing tds measurement you would find something like input TDS 600 ppm (with high calcium), drain at 450 ppm. 650 ppm input (low calcium), drain at 350 ppm. That means not only did the plants take up a higher ppm of nutrients but the percentage was also higher in nutrients other than calcium. To gain by this you have to be able to bring your self to almost daily read a nutrient deficiency and antagonist chart though.

I just checked out an add for FloraNova grow and it is 1.75 to 1 to 2.5. So it is swinging closer to 3:1:2 than the original Micro and grow mixed to 3.5:0.5:3.5. The FloraNovaBloom is 4:8:7, and there old Micro and bloom was 2.5:2.5:2.5. Sure seems strange that they only added humic and fulvic acids made from lenoraddite coal but now list the products as organic. I just in the last day or so added humus to the nutrient thread. For those curious, leonardite coal is the brown coal often found mixed in with soft black lignite coal. Some say it is almost coal and almost peat moss. They dissolve the coal with potassium hydroxide, they then add a little phosphoric acid. This form s mushy mass (humic substance) and fulvic acids (the solution). If the just want the humic acid, they pour off the fulvic acid and add water. The water contains humic acids. Usually most manufacturers use/combine the fulvic and humic acids and just call it humus. The new Fad.

For what it is worth for the set ups I use I run formulations of veg 3.26, 1, 3.55 and Bloom of 2.81, 1, 4.4 I am running closer to 3:1:4 rather than 3:1:2. My use of higher potassium is due to the use of tight SOG grows with growing temps around 88 to 92 degrees, very high transpiration due to low ppm nutrients and dehumidification down to around 35 to 40 during veg and 25 to 30 during budding, and lots of CO2.

The general horticultural description of potash as a nutrient: Potassium is a key activator of many enzymes, especially those involved with carbohydrate metabolism. Potassium is also responsible for the control of ion movement through membranes and water status of stomatal apertures. Potassium therefore has a role in controlling plant transpiration and turgor. It is generally associated with plant 'quality' and is necessary for successful initiation of flower buds. As a result the levels of potassium in nutrient solutions are increased as plants enter a 'reproductive' phase, and as crops grow into lower light levels, in order to maintain nutrient balance in solution.


So is the 3:1:2 ratio perfect. No it just seems to be one of the better choices of those nutrient formulas that are available for those who are growing at more common temperatures and humidities. Would added potassium make the formulation better. If you growing parameters are above average, then yes increasing the potash ppm would likely be helpful. If not you will very likely just be adding potassium hydroxide every day anyway so you might as well add it initially instead of adding so much every day by using pH up during budding.



(continued)
Hey Square Pusher, I am new here and don't have messenger. I have a Aeroponic system and am looking for a good veg and flower formulas that I can mix myself, any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
O

outre99

3
1
3
That is strange as balanced nutrients near or about 3:1:2, calcium of at least half to 1.5 to 3 and magnesium about half on the nitrogen or calcium through out still produce the best results. Calcium is really a very good way to control nutrient up take in efficient systems. As long as the ratio of calcium to magnesium is about 2:1 the calciums high EC means it has a lot of control over the amount of other nutrients that are available.

For what it is worth for the set ups I use I run formulations of veg 3.26, 1, 3.55 and Bloom of 2.81, 1, 4.4 I am running closer to 3:1:4 rather than 3:1:2. My use of higher potassium is due to the use of tight SOG grows with growing temps around 88 to 92 degrees, very high transpiration due to low ppm nutrients and dehumidification down to around 35 to 40 during veg and 25 to 30 during budding, and lots of CO2.

(continued)
If Fatman is keeping an eye on this thread and i sincerely hope so, would you please add more detail to the paragraphs above from your original post.

I live in a place where premixed nutes are not available, and after reading your post, it seems to be less of an issue now. So I was forced to start mixing my own from the very beginning. I've downloaded a nutrient calculator program called Hydrobuddy and has been using it extensively to figure out my formulas. I'm running a recirculating deep water culture system under LED lights. Lately i've been getting unsatisfactory results and realized that i need to change my formulas.

Your discussion of the different ratios in addition to the standard NPK was very illuminating but not quite clear. Especially the first sentence in the first paragraph quoted above. Would you please clarify you recommendation for the calcium ratio.
I'm also a bit confused about the best way to translate 3:1:2 ratio into actual formula. It seems that at some places NPK refers to the weight of the desired element in a bag of fertilizer, while elsewhere it refers to the ratio of ppm in the final solution. Would you please clarify which one you mean?

Also i keep reading that in DWC EC should be adjusted to the half of the recommended by manufacturer, which is rather unhelpful if one is mixing own nutes. Could you share some thoughts about the EC levels during the lifecycle?

Thanks in advance.
 
O

outre99

3
1
3
If Fatman is keeping an eye on this thread and i sincerely hope so, would you please add more detail to the paragraphs above from your original post.

I live in a place where premixed nutes are not available, and after reading your post, it seems to be less of an issue now. So I was forced to start mixing my own from the very beginning. I've downloaded a nutrient calculator program called Hydrobuddy and has been using it extensively to figure out my formulas. I'm running a recirculating deep water culture system under LED lights. Lately i've been getting unsatisfactory results and realized that i need to change my formulas.

Your discussion of the different ratios in addition to the standard NPK was very illuminating but not quite clear. Especially the first sentence in the first paragraph quoted above. Would you please clarify you recommendation for the calcium ratio.
I'm also a bit confused about the best way to translate 3:1:2 ratio into actual formula. It seems that at some places NPK refers to the weight of the desired element in a bag of fertilizer, while elsewhere it refers to the ratio of ppm in the final solution. Would you please clarify which one you mean?

Also i keep reading that in DWC EC should be adjusted to the half of the recommended by manufacturer, which is rather unhelpful if one is mixing own nutes. Could you share some thoughts about the EC levels during the lifecycle?

Thanks in advance.

And lastly do you mean the actual N-P-K or N-P2O5-K2O?
Thanks
 
O

outre99

3
1
3
Thanks ShaggyBalls,
although i feel pretty funny writing that name.

Anyway, after additional reading of this thread and doing more research i've come up with the formula.
Accounting for Fatman's ratios and his reason for increasing K (more efficient delivery system and higher temps) i've come up with the formula that's pretty close and would like to share it for the community for review.

Also i'd like to give props to HydroBuddy as this nifty little program saved me countless hours of manual calculations and trying to gain deeper understanding of the underlying chemistry. I strongly recommend it to anybody who is running any kind of hydroponic system.
Disclosure: I'm not involved with HydroBuddy in any way, shape, or form. Just a happy user.

My setup is Recirculating Deep Water Culture under LED lights at 25C and 50-60% humidity with injected CO2.

I usually do direct addition to the system but the same formula can be used for stock solution as well.
This one is for 100L direct addition. All units are in grams. The ingredients were sourced from a farm supply company.

Calcium Nitrate (Tetrahydrate) 173.5
Magnesium Sulfate (Heptahydrate) 167
Potassium Nitrate 60
Potassium Monobasic Phosphate 22
Iron-EDTA 3.8
Mn-EDTA 1.5
Zn-EDTA 0.2
Solubor 0.34
Cu-EDTA 0.05
Sodium Molybdate (Dihydrate) 0.01

Here are the ratios
N : P2O5 : K2O - 1 : 0.33 : 1.02 (N:P:K)
Ca : N - 1 : 1.1
Ca : Mg - 1 : 0.48
N : Mg - 1 : 0.43

My temps are lower and my knowledge is definitely lacking comparing to that of Fatman's so i figured that the 3:1:3 ratio is probably more potent than 3:1:2 but less aggressive than 3:1:4.

I'm always open to ideas, suggestions and musings.
 
S

sidewing

Don't forget your sulfur needs to be about 1.5x P. Didn't see you reference it. Ive been running about the same ratios with good success, except I go double k to n/ca.. I set my ppm goals to:
N: 100
P: 50
K: 200
Ca: 100
Mg: 50
S: 75

I could probably drop the p slightly, but I'm not having any issues so I don't see any reason. I run this through veg and flower in dwc.
I recently got rid of my 1k hps so I'm using a 400w t5 in controlled conditions. Working absolutely great.
 
A

agent dank

New here and having issues with a stock tank.

Im using a 5-11-26 mix from hydro-gardens and made a 100:1 stock solution. I put about 5lbs of the mix per 11gal of distilled water.

This is kept in a blue hdpe food grade container kept in a 65F room in the dark.

Its been about a month and Im noticing after I shake up the mix I have solids floating around. Im not sure if something is growing or not.

Is it even possible for something to live in this salty water?

The person who got me started on using these nutes does 55gal batches that sit for a while and he said hes never had this happen but told me to add pH down to get the stock to 4-4.5 pH
 
connoisseurde420

connoisseurde420

Hi there @agent dank , Did you use RO or distilled water for making your stock solution? Tap should not be used and i never have solids after mixing up. You probably contaminated it somewhere, there shouldn't be fallout.
 
A

agent dank

Hi there @agent dank , Did you use RO or distilled water for making your stock solution? Tap should not be used and i never have solids after mixing up. You probably contaminated it somewhere, there shouldn't be fallout.
I used distilled water after I washed and rinsed the container.

So what am I to do now with 10gal of contaminated nutrients? Im sure its not good for the environment to chuck it down the drain. Im also not sure how it got contaminated to correct my actions.

I use a stick to mix it and a cup to scoop out. Perhaps thats where contamination occured as I use the same cup.
 
connoisseurde420

connoisseurde420

@agent dank idk what to do with all those contaminated nutes :( but you would be best to do a new concentrate in smaller batches until you get it. maybe even half and half old and new batches would probably work fine.
 
A

agent dank

@agent dank idk what to do with all those contaminated nutes :( but you would be best to do a new concentrate in smaller batches until you get it. maybe even half and half old and new batches would probably work fine.
What about this sodium benzoate that @Fresh Starts was talking about?

I checked the tank today before shaking it and there were all these particles suspended in the solution that sank when I opened the air tight lid.

The reason I was doing a big batch was because its a mix and I wanted to get close to the analysis as possible.

Taking 200g out at a time out of a 25lb bag would leave me with less accurate results as taking 5lbs out. And even less accurate as mixing the whole bag.

I only use 150gal every 2 weeks so even at 5lbs it would last 20+ weeks.

Since I dont know how to dispose of this concentrate im going to use it and hope that whatever bacteria will survive that brine wont survive in mostly fresh water. And I use bennies anyways. If I knew a way to get rid of it is take the $20 hit and dump it.
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

I've run concentrated stock solutions of Jacks 5-12-26 and used a similar dilution rate as you did @agent dank and from my experience I had white salt precipitation in the bottom of my stock solution. I never had bacterial formation even when I did not use FCC/USP Sodium Benzoate. I think the salt precipitation is potassium or calcium but I have never tested it. What I would recommend is making a reservoir using the stock solution with particulate and send off a sample to a lab for analysis for $40 (like JR Peters). That way you would know what is missing from the fertilizer if it is indeed salt and you can adjust if needed-that is a lot of stock solution to throw away. If it was bacterial I would not worry to much as long as you are hand watering and using your own beneficials to out populate the bad ones.
 
A

agent dank

I've run concentrated stock solutions of Jacks 5-12-26 and used a similar dilution rate as you did @agent dank and from my experience I had white salt precipitation in the bottom of my stock solution. I never had bacterial formation even when I did not use FCC/USP Sodium Benzoate. I think the salt precipitation is potassium or calcium but I have never tested it. What I would recommend is making a reservoir using the stock solution with particulate and send off a sample to a lab for analysis for $40 (like JR Peters). That way you would know what is missing from the fertilizer if it is indeed salt and you can adjust if needed-that is a lot of stock solution to throw away. If it was bacterial I would not worry to much as long as you are hand watering and using your own beneficials to out populate the bad ones.
Im not sure what it is. There isnt a smell at all. But there is definitely white floaters. Plants getting the mix seem to be fine.

Did the sodium benzoate work for you?

I read something on scienceinhydroponics that the bacteria are attracted to the amino acids in the iron copper and zinc chelates EDTA and DPTA and feed on those leading to a decreased absorption of those nutrients since they are chelated for better uptake.

So youre saying take a sample of my stock and try to get some of those particulates in the vial and send it for an analysis? Or make a new sample stock?

Theres a person who uses the same mix in 55gal barrels who claims hes never gotten results like I have.

I know the hydro gardens catalog says not to concentrate some mixes that contain Mg, P & Ca. But my mix has no Ca and isnt one of those. But perhaps maybe thats why yours precipitated? It usually turns to calcium phosphate and calcium sulfate which sit as undissolvable white solids at the bottom. But since the ratios were similar to mine I imagine it didnt have any Ca.

Mine rise up to the top when there is a vaccuum when the lid is sealed and sink when the lid is opened.

By the way your setup looks badass. *thumbs up*
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

Yeah I would send in a sample of what you are watering your plants when you use the said stock solution with issues. That way you can pinpoint an issue from salt precipitation by comparing the lab results with your manufacturers nutrient profile description. If one or two of the N-P-K levels are off you will have a better idea of what is falling out of solution and will be able to add more of one or the other to compensate. Its just an option so you don't have to throw the stock solution away- but it may prove more work than its worth.

Sodium Benzoate does work nicely. It's best to keep stock solutions free from light. Even though I use the Sodium Benzoate I still see bacterial development in my stock solutions because I do not have light proof containers. Albeit it takes weeks to months for them to develop in the presence of Sodium Benzoate. I speculate that in a dark container they might not ever develop. I use it @.2 grams per liter of stock solution FWIW.

Thanks for the complement
 
A

agent dank

So you think nutrients are falling out and thats what the white floaters are? I heard the Sodium Benzoate only works under 5.0pH and 4.0-4.5pH is ideal.

I would like to do the testing even though its more money than chucking it which would be a PITA to do responsibly. I wanted to do my tap water testing for a while now, so i'll just do both. The tap is 10.3pH and .2EC. My old house the tap was 6.7pH at .12EC. That was some great water to grow in.

My barrel is dark blue food grade plastic. The lid on the other hand is white and semi translucent, but I never had it in light until these past few days doing renovations. Its like 10ft. from a T5HO fixture. I mixed it a month ago.
 
Last edited:
T

tanan

6
3
1
Hi. I am also in an area where I cant get all the ready made mixes. What I could find was Vitax's soluble fertilizer 301. Which is 36-0-12 and a mix of trace. I also have KH2PO4. Since I keep planted tanks, I have CSM+B too which is also a trace mix. So any help with how can I use it to get a 3-1-2 for veg fert. Also how to dose it. I am using coco coir hempy style.
 
Top Bottom