I think that the 62s are a little too wet. Tried them a few harvests in a row and they actually fuck up the smells I get from a natural dry and cure. Going to give the 54s a try but I'm not expecting much better. Something about that 2 way membrane or just doesn't seem to do my nugs well. Please ALWAYS FLUSH 2 WEEKS and NEVER foliar in FLOWER if you aren't the only person smoking your flowers. There is no comparison to flushed nugs. Anyone who says otherwise is just being silly. period.:cool:

Heh heh silly rabbit TRIX are for kids! I think @baba G said it best, don't ask why, smoke buds dry

CBDEMON said:

I think that the 62s are a little too wet. Tried them a few harvests in a row and they actually fuck up the smells I get from a natural dry and cure. Going to give the 54s a try but I'm not expecting much better. Something about that 2 way membrane or just doesn't seem to do my nugs well. Please ALWAYS FLUSH 2 WEEKS and NEVER foliar in FLOWER if you aren't the only person smoking your flowers. There is no comparison to flushed nugs. Anyone who says otherwise is just being silly. period.:cool:

Click to expand...

@CBDEMON Ya I would have to agree with you on the boveda 62's. ?I tried ordering 54's today and their website said they are out of stock. I am also a little concerned that the 2 way membrane is actually poaching the terps right out of the stash. Next time you use one, if you do, take the packet out smell your bud jar and you will notice low odor compared to when you put it in. Then take the boveda and put your nose right on it and the dank is all in the packet. I noticed this today. Bud went in dank as %%%% and now has a much lower terp profile, but that packet is chock full. So what gives are we keeping our herb moist to sacrifice the terps???

Sorry bout the thread jack. Done

Maybe that much moisture for the burping but during and after the cure, I like dry weed but not dust either. It's an art really under rated and under appreciated!

CBDEMON said:

I think that the 62s are a little too wet. Tried them a few harvests in a row and they actually fuck up the smells I get from a natural dry and cure. Going to give the 54s a try but I'm not expecting much better. Something about that 2 way membrane or just doesn't seem to do my nugs well. Please ALWAYS FLUSH 2 WEEKS and NEVER foliar in FLOWER if you aren't the only person smoking your flowers. There is no comparison to flushed nugs. Anyone who says otherwise is just being silly. period.:cool:

Click to expand...

<cough>BS</cough>

:p

I have a side by side with the cvault and boneveda 60. I agree they change the taste 100% glass jars all day

Ahhhhhh Thanks for the chime in @Frostynugman I appreciate that. Now I know it isn't just me. I believe that somehow the terps and flavor profile end up in the Boveda packs. I am just not sure of the mechanisim or science that would cause this. Maybe we can rouse @squiggly to shed some light. Peace

Perhaps it might be because terpenes are volatile compounds.

I learn From poutporri, not exact same process but similar concepts!

Seamaiden said:

Perhaps it might be because terpenes are volatile compounds.

Click to expand...

That's were porosity comes in crucial.

Seamaiden said:

Perhaps it might be because terpenes are volatile compounds.

Click to expand...

@Seamaiden Can you elaborate a tad more. My interest is peaked!!

Or @phoenixfire

jumpincactus said:

@Seamaiden Can you elaborate a tad more. My interest is peaked!!

Or @phoenixfire

Click to expand...

Take this topic the way you have soil biology and you'll experience a completely eVolv3d primordial high!

CBDEMON said:

I think that the 62s are a little too wet. Tried them a few harvests in a row and they actually fuck up the smells I get from a natural dry and cure. Going to give the 54s a try but I'm not expecting much better. Something about that 2 way membrane or just doesn't seem to do my nugs well. Please ALWAYS FLUSH 2 WEEKS and NEVER foliar in FLOWER if you aren't the only person smoking your flowers. There is no comparison to flushed nugs. Anyone who says otherwise is just being silly. period.:cool:

Click to expand...

I don't like the 62s either. Seems like my smoke cured darker than I like.

ShroomKing said:

I don't like the 62s either. Seems like my smoke cured darker than I like.

Click to expand...

If I may add? Those grey ash are heavy and pull to the ground, gravity seems to effect my white ash from solar tokes differently in when solar toking a properly grown and cured bowl, the white ash will blow and float in a breeze and leaf down like leaves in autumn.

phoenixfire said:

That's were porosity comes in crucial.

Click to expand...

Porosity, or perhaps the pack's ability to adsorb/absorb molecules other than water? I'm not saying this *is* what they do, I'm musing.

jumpincactus said:

@Seamaiden Can you elaborate a tad more. My interest is peaked!!

Or @phoenixfire

Click to expand...

Well, terpenes are, if I recall, something called aromatic volatile compounds. So if they're like other volatile compounds, that suggests that there are many factors that can cause them to... be disturbed if you will. I really don't know much about how these Boveda packs work, but if I recall they, on a molecular level, absorb or shed water when the molecule hits a particular weight. The question becomes, Can they absorb/adsorb any other compounds, or can other compounds tail along with the water molecules? This is something I can't answer, but maybe someone like, say... @squiggly can.

Doncha love getting dragged into threads you're not following, squigs? :D

Lol

phoenixfire said:

If I may add? Those grey ash are heavy and pull to the ground, gravity seems to effect my white ash from solar tokes differently in when solar toking a properly grown and cured bowl, the white ash will blow and float in a breeze and leaf down like leaves in autumn.

Click to expand...

AtmospherIc pressure is key aswell, I'm guessing. I love glass for that reason, I even burp a specific way at a specific time and rh to ensure that if my cured nuggs get left out on the counter too long they WILL NOT Re absorb moisture or dry out further due to my curing process not being complete until a specific porosity is achieved, which is a low porosity. Through out the curing you will notice the changes in how quickly moisture is absorbed and released at certain temps and ages, this porosity fluctuates for different plants in different circumstances. Curing and changes throughout the process is my muse!

I want to bump this without going through 21 pages. There should be a post in here somewhere with a good explanation of the fermentation/curing/chemical process involved to some extent in both drying and curing. I think also there is a post that also has a process pasted in it describing how flooded roots flushing works, as it is used in certain old school apple orchards in the South.

Fermentation happens whether it's been grown mainly organic or synthetically. The fermentation is a very complicated process and with quick drying can be ended with a result very different than if it was allowed to ferment/cure longer. An acquaintance that owns a dispensary lets his dry as quickly as possible thereby negating much of the positive results from fermentation of Chlorophyll and other compounds. I am using that as an example of my personal drying basically allowing for a prolonged dry in moderate humidity, much like tobacco.

Taste and burn testing seems to show some subjectivity and I think everyone can agree with that. I don't smoke so I can't judge but I know enough who do, some can tell, some cannot. I think that might be because they can taste an improperly cured buds metallic cations perhaps? The whole organic/inorganic classification is kind of loose goose unless properly defined because even if you grow a plant on just fish fertilizer and kelp extract it will have inorganic substances in it since it cannot grow without them, such as Ca, Mg, Mn, Zn....etc. From what I know you cannot tell a calcium ion whether derived from bone meal, CaCO3, Kelp, EWC, Insect Frass, Ca(NO3)2, once it's in the plant it's first in ionic form and can be stored as a cation maintained in unstimulated cells that will be used as needed to counterbalance a ph flush, or it will form protein complexes or serve as .....blather blather......

So, I do believe in some flushing, but definitely not when the plant is putting on weight almost exponentially. I think flushing agents are crap and I simply prefer, since my customers prefer, to maintain my focus on a three day flush with fermented plant extracts and colloidal minerals added in minute quantity as a ph buffer, and a longer drying and curing time.

I know that allowing a plant to dry here in Colorado at 30% humidity is pure ignorance of peoples lungs no matter if it was fertilized with the Holy Mother's tears or AN's complete "expert" lineup.

Here's something that might seem off-topic but it's not. Think about just calcium again, once it enters a plant and follows it's journey it can end up as a part of chlorophyll. Look at all that chlorophyll contains
1. Zinc
2. Selenium
3. Vitamin E
4. Vitamin C
5. Vitamin A
6. Protein
7. Biotin
8. Folic acid
9. Pantothenic Acid
10. Calcium
11. Chromium
12. Phosphorus
13. Potassium
14. Magnesium
15. Iron

So, since the fermentation process gets rid of chlorophyll, as I remember, it would seem like a good idea to let it run it's course and this can be measured with an inexpensive Brix meter.

That's my 2 pennies worth. Well except that everyone has their own way and if they like it, I like it as long as they are not endangering the customers lungs.

Great post, click. I have been following this thread, but I don't recall any previous mention of fermentation. If you don't mind, could you expand on that thought a little bit?

Oh wow. Yeah, let me go find it. It's on one of the (many) threads about curing and flushing.

I'm sorry but my older Mac (that I had all my separate research with proper creds to individuals listed) is down, for months :/ ......and I haven't had it fixed.

I found an old post and please remember there were many contributors to this and it has been passed between forums and added to so if anyone reads their own stuff on here sorry I could give you creds. It's huge but if you have time and have room for information about the flush/some flush/fuck a flush debate then there is plenty here.

Starting from here to bottom. I don't know if the links will paste or not and I am about to blow my house up if I don't get off of here :) ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.


Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."



Now with an actual botanical understanding of how this works we move on to yet another botanical proven fact that if plants are drowned, which occurs in nature in the form of floods they go into a survival fermentaion mode converting sugars into alcohol I am reposting my ditty on harvesting and curing so you can see the evidence of this,,,,,,,,,,,,

Harvesting, Drying and Curing, A Research Study
The first word we used for this research was Oxidation, the second word is Fermentation as the fermentation process is what makes "the cure" work so understanding the fermentation process is very important.

Here at RIU there is a thread that includes a cut and paste from a book by Mel and Ed you all know I like Mels book I am not gonna paste it here as it is fairly long and this will be long enough as it is, but this same info appears on most every MJ forum and seems to be the basis for how we all cure today. It seems from my research that this was originally based on how tobaco is cured and we will get into that later, here is the RIU link to this info I advise you go read it then come back,,,,,,,,

Harvesting Curing Drying - Take Back the Knowledge

There is an old hippie growers myth that says to soak the roots in water for 3 to 10 days before harvest this is not to be confused with the flush that everyone talks about (you all know I don't flush before harvest, I flush always) the tip/myth is supposed to improve the quality of our smoke. I have to admit that I never paid it much attention until now because I have now proven it is not a myth and has some scientific validation.

What it amounts to is a way to start the cure prior to harvest while the plant is still alive. This is an incredible find as far as I am concerned and I can not wait to try it. what it amounts to is starving the plant of oxygen by drowning it, if in hydro take away the bubbles or spray fill the tank with water and wait, if in a pot either continuously water it (keep it wet/soaked) or stick the pot in a bigger bucket of water.

I need to add some background info as I'm getting ahead of myself, most of you know that if you add sugar and yeast together it ferments into alcohol giving off CO2. The basic definition of Fermentation is the act of breaking down sugars into alcohol and our plants do this internally thru a natural process even while growing. The act of fermentation is a oxidation/reduction process (explained in prior post) just as most plant functions seem to be. Also please be aware that N is needed for proper fermintation to take place.

Here is the info I found verifying that this old hippie myth is real,,,,,

Plants use photosynthesis to make sugars out of water, CO2 and sunlight. But a plant cell (like any other cell) cannot use sugars for their cellular processes, it needs to break down the sugars and make ATP. Basically, the only difference between humans and plants in this chapter is that plants make their own sugars, while we get ours from food. But we still both need to use those sugars, and we do that through cellular respiration.

Fermentation is strictly defined as any way of anaerobically degrade pyruvic acid and recycle NAD+ to keep glycolysis going. You can then categorize this process as lactic acid fermentation (where pyruvate accepts electrons from NADH directly and becomes lactate), alcoholic fermentation (where pyruvate is first decarboxylated to acetaldehyde which then accepts electrons from NADH to become ethanol) and others (which are much more obscure). So technically, human cells are able to carry out lactic acid fermentation. Liver cells also have the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase (responsible for ethanol formation in yeast and other fungi), but we use it in the reverse direction so to speak to get rid of any alcohol which we consume by converting it to pyruvate.
Plants however, can carry out alcoholic fermatation. They don't normally do it, because plants are usually in contact with oxygen. However, if you flood the root of a plant for about a week the cells are starved of oxygen, and because of this they will start carrying out alcoholic fermentation to survive.


More info on Alcoholic pathway ethanol waste while the lactate formed in the lactate pathway can be broken down further. that is what leads to the oxygen debt
found here,
http://www.biology-online.org/biolog...bout16671.html




Alcoholic Fermentation In Plants

By the following, which we find in the London Gardener's Chronicle, it will be seen that the discovery is somewhat akin to those of Prof. Burrill and others in this country:
"When plants are deprived of oxygen gas it appears that alcohol is formed in all their tissues without the aid of any ferment. If a vegetable cell containing sugar be cut off from its supply of oxygen - be suffocated, in fact - the sugar it contains becomes broken up or changed into carbonic acid, alcohol, and other products. Moreover, the various alcoholic ferments only produce their effects under the same conditions. Alcoholic fermentation, then, depends solely on the suffocation of a living cell containing sugar. Starting from these ascertained facts, M. Van Tieghem, in a recent number of the Annales Agronomiques, alludes to a peculiar disease in apple trees due to a suffocation of the roots, followed by the production of alcohol in their tissues. On microscopic examination the tissues were found healthy, except the medullary rays, the cells of which, instead of containing starch or sugar, contained brown oily globules, the residue left after the formation of the alcohol, which latter is diffused throughout the root, tinging the cells of a characteristic brown color, and giving rise to an easily detected alcoholic odor.
Judging from these appearances what was the nature of the disease, M. Van Tieghem made inquiries as to the character of the soil, and from this, as well as the fact that the season had been extremely wet, his diagnosis was confirmed, and he in consequence prescribed efficient drainage as the remedy for the disease, and with good effect.



found here,
http://chestofbooks.com/gardening-ho...In-Plants.html

one more
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_gui...eId-23703.html

I am giving you this info first as it relates to doing something prior to the actual harvest chop. The rest of what I found will bring everything that we find already posted in the harvest forum to a hopefully better understanding.

We as MJ growers have modified/refined the basic knowledge of curing and fermentation of other plants due to the fact that our buds are not leaves and are therefore more subceptable to mold but the basic premise is the same, we don't add to much heat because it is known to degrade THC. We don't maintain higher humidity levels to avoid mold. The piling of the plants to induce fermentation is the same concept that makes composting work and for us home growers this is why we use a paper bag or cardboard box because it creates a scaled down compost/fermentation chamber, with this in mind pay great attention to why it is necessary to check often and rotate/rearrange the buds during this part of the process. Also know that this process will also continue once you put your buds into jars.

I also want to point out that while it is easier to trim your buds before drying that leaving the leafs on and hanging the plant allows the leafs to dry formed around the bud to protect it from various things most importantly oxidation which we know degrades the THC. It also allows the buds to dry more slowly which is what we truely want to happen.
(Gases permeate almost any plant matter with any open spaces so I call BS on this one -Click 80 (I fill my drying room with CO2 after a certain point anyway)

Please remember that patience is a virtue the slower they dry the better they will be period. To many growers are in a hurry and as a result speed things up once you read all of the info I am about to present you will see what I am saying is true as I have (yes I have read all of it)

Next I am going to share several MJ specific links about harvesting & curing as more heads are always better than one and the whole of all of them put together creates a pretty solid picture for us to consider as we try to improve our techniques. a couple of them even explain how to add flavors in case anyone wants to experiment a bit.

Here they are in no particular order
http://www.wietmeneer.nl/growing/haze.html

http://forum.grasscity.com/harvestin...uana-more.html

http://www.sky.org/data/grow/c21.html

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/foru...p-Ed-Rosenthal

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/ha...ng-curing.html

http://forum.sensiseeds.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5836

http://www.seedbankupdate.com/cure.htm

I am including the following links because they explain how other plants are cured in various different ways for color and taste this info will not only help us to better understand the various processes but may offer ideas for future experiments that might create a better end product. what you will see is while the techniques vary a bit they are all very similar.

Cacao (chocolate)
http://www.allchocolate.com/understa...o_factory.aspx

Tea
http://www.wtea.com/about-tea_growth.aspx

http://the-leaf.org/issue%202/wp-con...age-layout.pdf

Tobacco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco#Curing

http://books.google.com/books?id=9c8...curing&f=false

http://www.cigars4dummies.com/tobacc...ng/drying.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4so...curing&f=false

http://chestofbooks.com/health/mater...Tinctures.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=A1I...curing&f=false

lots of other plants
http://bookshop.cabi.org/Uploads/Boo...1845933562.pdf


Happy Harvesting