Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

Dr.Dutch · Jan 21, 2023

I have now looked a bit more myself.
The article by Dr. Fernandez is quite interesting.
https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2020/04/sugars-in-hydroponic-nutrient-solutions.html
The point about processing/uptake to the upper parts of the plant there.

Let us start with what we know about the subject. We know that plants exude very significant amount of sugars through their root systems and we also know that they can re-uptake some of these sugars through their roots (see here). From this paper it seems that maize plants could uptake up to 10% of the sugars they exude back into their root systems, which implies that some exogenous sugar application could find its way into plant roots. Even worse, transporting this sugar up to the shoots is extremely inefficient, with only 0.6% of the sugar making it up the plant. This tells us that most of the sugar is wasted in terms of plant usage, a large majority never makes it into the plant and the little amount that makes it actually never goes up the plant. Plants are simply not built to transport sugars in this manner, they evolved to transport sugars down to roots and to fruits.

Overall, though, there seems to be very little research in the field for hydro, he says.

Sadly there aren’t any peer reviewed papers – at least that I could find – investigating the effect of exogenous sugars on the yields of any plant specie in a hydroponic environment. Given our understanding of plant physiology, any positive effects related with anecdotal use of sugars are most likely related with positive effects in the rhizosphere that are linked with improved production of substances that elicit plant growth in the root zone by favorable microbes.

The last section regarding food for MOs is I think the more important part.

If you’re interested in the use of sugars in hydroponics, it is probably more fruitful to focus on microbe inoculations instead. Sugars themselves are bound to provide no benefit if they are not coupled with a proper microbe population and, even then, you might actually have all the benefits without any sugar applications as the microbes can be selected and fed by plant root exudates themselves in mature plants although sugars might provide some benefits in jump starting these populations, particularly in younger plants. Also, bear in mind that there is also a very high risk of stimulating bad microbes with the use of sugars, especially if oxygenation is not very high.

I use glucose myself, which so far is also only for my bacillus spp. as food. Unfortunately I have not found any scientific sources, but on manicbotanix there were several articles about food for MOs in hydroponic systems.
In my case, I have so far only been able to determine that the pH remains significantly more stable in conjunction with citric acid.

Would be interested in any case, how this affects in your case with your MOs. The problem with too little O2 you should not have in your system

Moe.Red · Jan 21, 2023

Dr.Dutch said:
I have now looked a bit more myself.
The article by Dr. Fernandez is quite interesting.
https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2020/04/sugars-in-hydroponic-nutrient-solutions.html
The point about processing/uptake to the upper parts of the plant there.

Overall, though, there seems to be very little research in the field for hydro, he says.

The last section regarding food for MOs is I think the more important part.

I use glucose myself, which so far is also only for my bacillus spp. as food. Unfortunately I have not found any scientific sources, but on manicbotanix there were several articles about food for MOs in hydroponic systems.
In my case, I have so far only been able to determine that the pH remains significantly more stable in conjunction with citric acid.

Would be interested in any case, how this affects in your case with your MOs. The problem with too little O2 you should not have in your system

Where did you come from Django?

I detect you listen a lot more than you speak. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel like I might have more to learn from you? Tell us about your grows. Doesn't seem like your average grower goes to the depth seem to.

I've got tomorrow AM set aside to read all these and get caught up. I need to go back on the exudates post too. Gonna take hours. Hardest part is weeding thru contradictory info.

Anthem · Jan 21, 2023

Dr.Dutch said:
I have now looked a bit more myself.
The article by Dr. Fernandez is quite interesting.
https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2020/04/sugars-in-hydroponic-nutrient-solutions.html
The point about processing/uptake to the upper parts of the plant there.

Overall, though, there seems to be very little research in the field for hydro, he says.

The last section regarding food for MOs is I think the more important part.

I use glucose myself, which so far is also only for my bacillus spp. as food. Unfortunately I have not found any scientific sources, but on manicbotanix there were several articles about food for MOs in hydroponic systems.
In my case, I have so far only been able to determine that the pH remains significantly more stable in conjunction with citric acid.

Would be interested in any case, how this affects in your case with your MOs. The problem with too little O2 you should not have in your system

I am going to take Dr. Fernandez's take on this one. He is a highly educated individual that specializes in Cannabis and hydroponics. He also made and published hydro buddy for everyone to use. Additionally for @GNick55 if you want to take a look at his archived blog's 2021 he has some information on organic WPM products but the kicker for me was good old sulphur being the most effective. Sulphur in Veg and a homemade product in bloom

Moe.Red · Jan 21, 2023

Anthem said:
I am going to take Dr. Fernandez's take on this one. He is a highly educated individual that specializes in Cannabis and hydroponics. He also made and published hydro buddy for everyone to use. Additionally for @GNick55 if you want to take a look at his archived blog's 2021 he has some information on organic WPM products but the kicker for me was good old sulphur being the most effective. Sulphur in Veg and a homemade product in bloom

Agreed he seems like a trustworthy source. I’ll comment more tomorrow when I’ve actually read all this stuff.

Anthem · Jan 21, 2023

Moe.Red said:
Agreed he seems like a trustworthy source. I’ll comment more tomorrow when I’ve actually read all this stuff.

You are saving me the time. I have a hypothesis of your findings but I will leave to myself.

steamroller · Jan 21, 2023

The Fernandez article read to me like you need the proper Plant Growth Promoting Microbes [PGPM] more than additional carbohydrates?
Or at least you needed proper microbes to use additional carbs properly.
Found this on that;

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Plant-microbe interactions have been the subject of several biotechnological studies, seeking sustainable development and environmental conservation. The ino...

www.frontiersin.org

You sucked me into this somehow?

Moe.Red · Jan 22, 2023

steamroller said:
The Fernandez article read to me like you need the proper Plant Growth Promoting Microbes [PGPM] more than additional carbohydrates?
Or at least you needed proper microbes to use additional carbs properly.
Found this on that;

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Plant-microbe interactions have been the subject of several biotechnological studies, seeking sustainable development and environmental conservation. The ino...

www.frontiersin.org

You sucked me into this somehow?

Well I’m way down the rabbit hole big time.

The problem is that this would be a full college course on just this topic. The interdependencies and depth of this is more than I have been able to wrap my brain around yet.

Here is what I think I know:

Roots in some plants do take up sugars.

What I am still studying to learn is if it is a good thing? Can this fact be used to hack the plant in any way like providing excess CO2 does?

The answer seems to require an advanced understanding of the interactions in the rhizosphere especially as it pertains to exudates.

This is going to take me more than a Sunday morning to sort thru this to a point I can explain it in a single paragraph. It’s also going to need some observations which I am planning for this next grow.

Even then there is plenty of room to reach the wrong conclusions based on limited data. There are several conflicting pieces of info I am reading, so that requires a dive into the source which leads to different sources and pretty soon I have 1000 papers to read.

I’ll do my very best to condense this all down but it’s gonna take time. I’ve decided that the best way to eat this elephant is to print it all out so I can mark it up and have it all laid out in front of me because doing this on the iPad is not effective. Too complex to make links that way.

Starting to feel a bit like this

Harpua88 · Jan 22, 2023

I've of course checked this out. The concept of maximizing every aspect, creating an environment that gives plants everything they need at every moment, maximizing space, time, and yielding results that bring the final product to the absolute best each plant can offer.......what could be better than that?

The remaining questions would be how much cost would be involved in this? Efficiencies, economies of scale will all apply, but still.......if it's a home grower it could be cost prohibitive.......unless cost isn't a factor, and that's absolutely fine. Or, this could be a system that's produced and sold FOR the home grower. That would be great, except it would still require a certain amount of technical prowess, and/or learning how to use the technology, maintaining it, making repairs, etc.

Or, it could be done on a large scale, with the people who have the knowledge to be available and run and maintain the system on a large scale.....

Moe.Red · Jan 22, 2023

Twistlocks going in. This is the RDWC system that I just finished harvesting. Hoping to put a couple of @Trustfall ‘s clones in here if he has some ready. If not a couple of fem seeds I think.

This is what h2o2 in a live res looks like. Sterilized between runs this time because I need a baseline for a little test I’m doing. That crap on top is foam from the peroxide killing off all the beneficial bacteria

Your browser is not able to display this video.

Dr.Dutch · Jan 22, 2023

Moe.Red said:
Where did you come from Django?

I detect you listen a lot more than you speak. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel like I might have more to learn from you? Tell us about your grows. Doesn't seem like your average grower goes to the depth seem to.

Django = @Jay13.aka.DutchStuff - just a new acc, old name looked stupid with the ff in the second line

I will start a detailed report here in the next few days. I had actually already promised you that last time. I'm only in the first week, so nothing missed yet.
Currently I am still trying to find out how my MOs behave with the organics (kelp, amino/peptide fertilizer, fulvic, some organic acids).
As you say, it's a damn rabbit hole.
And yes, definitely not like the 0815 grower. Nerd, passion and time probably lead to the great interest

steamroller said:
Found this on that;

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Plant-microbe interactions have been the subject of several biotechnological studies, seeking sustainable development and environmental conservation. The ino...

www.frontiersin.org

You sucked me into this somehow?

Very nice to have something more to read today

I have already read the first few sections, which again list all the advantages of PGPMs.
BudCandy (sorry that I have to mention this) is actually labeled as a microbial food, which I think makes more sense when using sugars.
As far as I'm now in theory, adding sugars to the plant can save energy because it itself uses less sugar through the roots to feed the microorganisms and that one directly promotes the MOs in the nutrient solution.
In my case I suspect that the Bacillus can also feed on some of the organics that are actually meant for the plant, which I try to prevent somewhat with the glucose. Last part is more of a hyphotosis though, which I'm kind of trying to explore further now
Nice quote, which I heard just yesterday:
"Ah, science. Always figuring stuff out. But never quite figuring stuff out all the way"

SweetLeafGrow · Jan 22, 2023

Moe.Red said:
This is what h2o2 in a live res looks like. Sterilized between runs this time because I need a baseline for a little test I’m doing. That crap on top is foam from the peroxide killing off all the beneficial bacteria

Just curious here about a couple of things-

Is that old res water still in the system, it looks like there are nutes in there? Are you killing off all the bacteria and then starting off fresh in the same water to preserve the nutrients?

I'm a bit confused on what exactly you are doing here. Perhaps this is an exercise just to show us what it looks like and how to clean between grows?

I found that same brand of 12% on ebay for $20 shipped.

Moe.Red · Jan 22, 2023

SweetLeafGrow said:
Just curious here about a couple of things-

Is that old res water still in the system, it looks like there are nutes in there? Are you killing off all the bacteria and then starting off fresh in the same water to preserve the nutrients?

I'm a bit confused on what exactly you are doing here. Perhaps this is an exercise just to show us what it looks like and how to clean between grows?

I found that same brand of 12% on ebay for $20 shipped.

Yeah that was the water left over after the plants got pulled out. Dumped in the 12% and a couple minutes later the nasty whiteish sludge on the top was the result.

Just showing there was significant life in the water.

Yes killing off and starting over. I would still dump out the water and refill if I had another plant ready to drop in and not kill off the colony. But at the moment I have nothing to put in there and I want to start over for other reasons. I’m starting this back up with a small amount of carbs, a little ammonia, and some great white no plants. Then I’ll do some microscopy to see what grows.

Moe.Red · Jan 23, 2023

steamroller said:
The Fernandez article read to me like you need the proper Plant Growth Promoting Microbes [PGPM] more than additional carbohydrates?
Or at least you needed proper microbes to use additional carbs properly.
Found this on that;

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Plant-microbe interactions have been the subject of several biotechnological studies, seeking sustainable development and environmental conservation. The ino...

www.frontiersin.org

You sucked me into this somehow?

I’m learning so much about microbes right now.

I am more convinced than ever that a live res is the preferred way to grow if you attempting to hack into some process to steer the growth of the plant.

If there are any sterile growers out there that require convincing I’m ready to debate any portion of that live vs sterile debate.

I can see myself growing my own cultures in qty going forward. I’m envisioning a very low level of carbs and a full dose of cultures in each of the nutrient supply tanks giving a constant supply of colonies in the right proportions.

I can’t do it this run because these are going to be sisters not clones, but I like the idea of doing 1 res h2o2, 1 res nothing, 1 res full spectrum great white, and one with Bacillus amyloliquefaciens only. Run the same nutes and all other conditions equal.

@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system. I think taking clones from one of those incoming plants might be a good way to test this out. Those are well known genetics with several pictures on the farm in many grow conditions.

So, there is the setup to help me get thru this college course. We’ll call this the required lab for “understanding root zone interactions in the presence of sugars and symbiotic organisms 101. “

And for my good buddy Pipecarver who wishes my posts were 2 sentences long max:

TLDR: I’m gonna observe the plant response to sugars, beneficial bacteria, and fungus in the root zone against a set of controls. I’ll grow 8 clones in the same system and treat them differently to do this.

Bluebuddha · Jan 23, 2023

So, I'll go out on a limb here..I would bet the further you research the more you'll find that the bacteria and fungus in the root zone would be analogous to the bacteria and fungi in our own digestive tracts.

Yup..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3536091/

Anthem · Jan 23, 2023

Moe.Red said:
I’m learning so much about microbes right now.

I am more convinced than ever that a live res is the preferred way to grow if you attempting to hack into some process to steer the growth of the plant.

If there are any sterile growers out there that require convincing I’m ready to debate any portion of that live vs sterile debate.

I can see myself growing my own cultures in qty going forward. I’m envisioning a very low level of carbs and a full dose of cultures in each of the nutrient supply tanks giving a constant supply of colonies in the right proportions.

I can’t do it this run because these are going to be sisters not clones, but I like the idea of doing 1 res h2o2, 1 res nothing, 1 res full spectrum great white, and one with Bacillus amyloliquefaciens only. Run the same nutes and all other conditions equal.

@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system. I think taking clones from one of those incoming plants might be a good way to test this out. Those are well known genetics with several pictures on the farm in many grow conditions.

So, there is the setup to help me get thru this college course. We’ll call this the required lab for “understanding root zone interactions in the presence of sugars and symbiotic organisms 101. “

And for my good buddy Pipecarver who wishes my posts were 2 sentences long max:

TLDR: I’m gonna observe the plant response to sugars, beneficial bacteria, and fungus in the root zone against a set of controls. I’ll grow 8 clones in the same system and treat them differently to do this.

That is one of the benefits of running the fog or DWC. 6 months ago I would have doubted their being any benefit.I ran sterile for years and I switch to live as well. Only challenge with going live might be with Rockwell. Never tried it but I understand algae is a problem growing on top. wonder if anyone does live in RW with success.

Moe.Red · Jan 23, 2023

Anthem said:
That is one of the benefits of running the fog or DWC. 6 months ago I would have doubted their being any benefit.I ran sterile for years and I switch to live as well. Only challenge with going live might be with Rockwell. Never tried it but I understand algae is a problem growing on top. wonder if anyone does live in RW with success.

@Dirtbag in the crystal palace?

Dirtbag · Jan 23, 2023

Moe.Red said:
@Dirtbag in the crystal palace?

Not in rockwool. In wool i was "sterile" using 29% peroxide and UV treating and reusing the runoff nutrient solution. Sterile I could make weeks of nutrient and keep the res full from a main holding tank. Almost no water was wasted or dumped. Made life easy. I ran live res with coco and promix several times.

Dirtbag · Jan 23, 2023

Actually come to think of it... no... I did do a rockwool grow using RAW microbes and great white. I think. Maybe. Lol, but I I'd have to look back through my grow diaries to confirm. I do know that I settled on growing sterile in rockwool. Easiest ease of use, and excellent quality..

Dirtbag · Jan 24, 2023

Moe.Red said:
I’m learning so much about microbes right now.

I am more convinced than ever that a live res is the preferred way to grow if you attempting to hack into some process to steer the growth of the plant.

If there are any sterile growers out there that require convincing I’m ready to debate any portion of that live vs sterile debate.

I can see myself growing my own cultures in qty going forward. I’m envisioning a very low level of carbs and a full dose of cultures in each of the nutrient supply tanks giving a constant supply of colonies in the right proportions.

I can’t do it this run because these are going to be sisters not clones, but I like the idea of doing 1 res h2o2, 1 res nothing, 1 res full spectrum great white, and one with Bacillus amyloliquefaciens only. Run the same nutes and all other conditions equal.

@Trustfall is coming thru with genetics for the RDWC system. I think taking clones from one of those incoming plants might be a good way to test this out. Those are well known genetics with several pictures on the farm in many grow conditions.

So, there is the setup to help me get thru this college course. We’ll call this the required lab for “understanding root zone interactions in the presence of sugars and symbiotic organisms 101. “

And for my good buddy Pipecarver who wishes my posts were 2 sentences long max:

TLDR: I’m gonna observe the plant response to sugars, beneficial bacteria, and fungus in the root zone against a set of controls. I’ll grow 8 clones in the same system and treat them differently to do this.

I went deep down the microbe and enzyme rabbit hole for a few cycles, convinced that it was the catalyst for success. In the end i got better results in sterile rockwool, and had great control of crop steering just using water content and drybacks, along with adjusting nutrient load and ratios as well as temperature drops at key times.

I'm curious to see what kinda results you come up with though. We growers like to science the shit out of this stuff, but every grower does things a little different and thrives in different environments. So my results may not match yours.

Moe.Red · Jan 24, 2023

Dirtbag said:
I went deep down the microbe and enzyme rabbit hole for a few cycles, convinced that it was the catalyst for success. In the end i got better results in sterile rockwool, and had great control of crop steering just using water content and drybacks, along with adjusting nutrient load and ratios as well as temperature drops at key times.

I'm curious to see what kinda results you come up with though. We growers like to science the shit out of this stuff, but every grower does things a little different and thrives in different environments. So my results may not match yours.

You bet man. Even our definition of success may be different.

My imagination may be more than reality about what microbes provide. I'm certainly open to that result being true. I'll let the results inform me on this. I appreciate your experience tho.

Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

Dr.Dutch

Moe.Red

Anthem

Moe.Red

Anthem

steamroller

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Moe.Red

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Harpua88

Moe.Red

Dr.Dutch

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

SweetLeafGrow

Moe.Red

Moe.Red

Frontiers | Successful Plant Growth-Promoting Microbes: Inoculation Methods and Abiotic Factors

Bluebuddha

Anthem

Moe.Red

Dirtbag

Dirtbag

Dirtbag

Moe.Red

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