Fogponics. As good or better than Hydro?

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Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Ran into this while looking for more information. I got alot out of it but take it for what it's worth.

"I wrote this in order to better understand it for everyone. I know it is long, but I hope you enjoy and learn as I did. For many people, brix is a word commonly associated with the wine industry. Brix is important to the sweetness of the grapes which makes all the difference in regards to the taste of the final product. However, we don’t eat or drink raw Cannabis, so why is brix important?

Adolph Brix developed this scale in the mid 1800s and it was popularized by Dr Carey Reams in the mid 1900s. Although brix had been used by citrus and grape growers for years, Dr Reams formulated a brix chart that covers most common fruits and vegetables, as well as forage crops.

THE ROLE OF BRIX VALUES IN TRADITIONAL AGRICULTURE

In a single sentence, high brix levels will improve the flavor, nutrition and shelf life of the produce as well as potential IPM (Integrated Pest Management) benefits.

Brix is a measurement of soluble solids in the sap of a plant. Most commonly, brix is thought of as sugars, but brix really is a measurement of sugars, vitamins, minerals, proteins and other solids. However, sugars are the most abundant soluble solid in many fruits and vegetable juices, therefore, brix values primarily represent estimates of sugars in fruits and vegetables. When used in the context of Cannabis, we are testing the leaf, and those results may also show salts in the dissolved solids.

Higher brix levels in food have been associated with elevated nutritional values as well as having a sweeter, more desirable taste. Field managers are able assess harvest readiness for grapes, melons and other crops using brix values.

Using the Poor, Average, Good, Excellent (P.A.G.E.) scale for brix levels in various fruits and vegetables, home gardeners can take the taste and nutritional quality of their crops to the next level. You can also easily and quickly determine who has the best produce at your local farmers market by using a hand-held refractometer. Interestingly, fruits and vegetables with high brix levels are superior for storage, as they will not rot or mold, the simply dehydrate.

To find the brix levels of any plant, fruit or vegetable, you can use a small refractometer. Prices range anywhere from $20-$200 for a unit and the majority of them are small enough to fit in your pocket and bring out into the field with you. To find the brix value, squeeze a few drops of plant sap into the refractometer. This tool will then shine a light at the liquid sample, where it bends or refracts the light in a predictable manner. The more soluble solids that are in the liquid sample, the larger the refraction will be, which indicates a higher brix value.

Higher brix levels have also been associated with plant health and potential IPM benefits. Field managers that regularly check plant brix levels are able to identify connections between brix values, crop health and conditions their crops experience. The brix value in a plant has a lot to do with nutrient availability and balance in the soil. Low brix values mean poor nutrition and this in-turn means weaker plants, which pests love. Plants with a brix value of over 12% are much less likely to have pest issues. Brix value alone cannot describe the overall health of a crop, soil or farm, but it can give you a glimpse.

HOW DO YOU INCREASE BRIX?

To the chagrin of those that do cross-fit…. I mean grow organically, seemingly that is one of the best ways to get plants to have higher brix levels. By focusing on soils that are rich in organic matter, beneficial bacteria and fungi, over time you can raise these levels naturally.

Before we get to soil, you can’t have high brix without proper sunlight, or in the case of indoor cultivation, proper intensity and DLI (Daily Light Interval). This is due to the lights role in producing sugars through photosynthesis. Before you go and build your dream, high brix soil, make sure you have adequate light.

As with all living soils, the road to high brix starts with plenty of beneficial soil microbes. Microbes are in the soil to make nutrients available to plants. They ingest one form of the nutrient and excrete a form of nutrient that is more bioavailable to the plants.

Once you have the microbes in place, you’ll want to ensure a good supply of Calcium to the plant. It takes good microbial activity to make calcium available in the soil. If calcium availability and uptake are optimized, other mineral uptake will be more balanced and effective. Calcium increases cellular structure in plants that keep the Xylem and Phloem moving freely. High brix foods are higher in calcium than low brix foods. A calcium deficiency in the plant will almost certainly effect brix levels, but it is important not to provide Calcium in excess. Too much calcium will lock-out several other important macronutrients like Phosphorus and Potassium as well as micronutrients like Boron.

Speaking of Phosphates, they also play an important part of the high brix equation. Phosphates are a catalyst that transports nutrients within the plant, they can act as the trucker moving nutrients within the plant. Dr Carey Reams once said “ Available phosphates determine sugar content in plants”. When he said that, he didn’t mean that high brix foods are necessarily high in phosphates; rather they are significantly higher in calcium, sugars and trace minerals, but phosphates are essential to get them to where they are needed. Phosphates also play a major role as the energy source in the Krebs cycle, which is a fancy way of saying that phosphates help the plant get more energy out of sunlight.

Having plant available iron in the soil helps with the efficiency of sugar production. During photosynthesis, chlorophyll manufactures sugars and the micronutrient, iron, acts as a catalyst. Humic and Fulvic acids are a great way to make iron in soil more plant available.

Organic matter provided by humates make nutrients more available to the plant. Technically, Folvic acid is refined Humic acid and all humates contain some fulvic acid. Both humic and fulvic acid make other nutrients available to the roots, fulvic acid also delivers nutrients directly into the plant and then operates as part of the internal delivery system. Being able to move sugars and nutrients around is vital for good brix levels in plants. Fulvic acid greatly assists in this.

Since we’re on the subject of acids, you’ll want to include some amino acids too. Amino acids are the building blocks of all life. Plants use amino acids to build proteins which are then used to build plant matter. By providing amino acids, the plant does not need to expend it’s sugar energy to make these proteins. Amino acids can also greatly increase the uptake of Calcium, which we know is important for strengthening the stem and vascular systems. L-Amino acids help the absorption and transport of minerals throughout the plant by chelating the minerals.

Kelp or seaweed extracts contain beneficial micronutrients, natural plant hormones and natural sugar in the form of Mannitol. Mannitol is a natural chelation agent for micronutrients and has been shown to be helpful in the plants transport system. Kelp / seaweed also helps in building root mass through stimulating cell division. When it comes to Cannabis, there is an old saying – “the bigger the roots, the bigger the fruits”. Which in my experience is certainly true.

Other items you may want to add into your soil mix include earthworm castings, mycorrhizal inoculants, compost teas, humus and rock dust. All of the above items can be added to your custom soil mix or a standard 1/3 compost, 1/3 peat or coco and 1/3 vermiculite mix.

FEEDING FOR BRIX

In regards to the traditional N-P-K, levels of higher brix in plants are often associated with lower levels of nitrates. Ammonium Nitrates (NH4+) burn carbohydrates and reduce the brix levels in plants.

Because microbes form an important part in the process of making nutrients plant available, in the effort to increase brix, the use of synthetic nutrients is discouraged. Salts tend to disrupt the soil parameters that the microbes prefer to dwell in.

If you would like to use a soil drench, there are a few carbohydrate additives that can be used on the root zone. A good carbohydrate additive will reduce the amount of sugars the plant transports down to feed the beneficial microbes. In some cases, roots will absorb sugars instead of shed them and this increase brix within the plant.

An excellent option for feeding your plants in an effort to boost brix levels would be foliar applications. A well made mix can have a tremendous impact on raising brix values in plants. Phosphates, calcium, boron and other micronutrients can be applied as foliar sprays. Increasing phosphates in the plant through foliar sprays allows the Krebs cycle to transfer more energy within the plants, which makes the plant more efficient in storing energy as sugar from the photosynthesis process.

When a foliar program is properly applied the mineral density as well as the carbohydrates or sugars within the plant is increased. Some of these additional sugars and minerals travel down to the roots and are excreted out as exudates, which feed the beneficial microbes. They in-turn make minerals more available to the plant, which are taken up through the roots and increases the total dissolved solids in the plant. This process explains how foliar applications can increase brix readings.

KEY QUESTIONS REGARDING YOUR NUTRIENTS AND HIGH BRIX

  • How much calcium is available for the plant to build healthy cells with?
  • Is Calcium in the correct ratio to Magnesium?
  • Does the soil have enough Phosphates to carry other nutrients into and provide energy transfer inside of the plant?
  • Is there a wide spectrum of trace minerals available to the plant, meaning, in bioavailable form?
  • How active is the soil biology (microbes)?
HOW DOES THIS EFFECT THE CANNABIS GROWER?

Brix testing gives you a good, general, overall look at plant health and soil nutrition. But by no means is it a definitive test that will show whether a specific nutrient is in excess or deficiency. One plant diagnostic assumption we can make though, is that if the brix values are low, there likely is a calcium deficiency. If there are more sugars and other beneficial components like minerals and amino acids (lives building blocks), the plant can build more coveted compounds like oils, flavors and resins.

On average, a brix value of 12% is excellent and anything below a 7 is poor in regards to brix and IPM. High brix is thought to deter insects for a few reasons, the first being that with elevated sugar levels, when insects take a bite, the sap ferments to alcohol inside of the insects body. The insects can’t digest the alcohol and they die. This appears to offer natural resistance with no artificial or toxic chemicals. I did not find Cannabis specific brix levels and correlations to health, but one website did toss their idea of ideal brix for Cannabis at 12-15%.

Dr. William Albrecht, whom is regarded as a premier soil scientist of his time has said, “Insects and disease are the symptoms of a failing crop, not the cause of it. It’s not the overpowering invader we must fear, but the weakend condition of the victim”. It was concluded that brix alone could not explain the lack of insect pressure, but the influence and combination of various nutrients and overall plant health carried more significance.



FINAL THOUGHTS

As ornamental growers, we aren’t very concerned with the taste of the raw buds. We are however concerned with the taste that the terpenes of the plant can offer. Wine grapes are known to carry many monoterpenes as well as a few sesquiterpenes although the direct connection to brix has not been established, that I am aware of.

As an overall guide to plant health, a Sap analysis would be more accurate and specific, but those are costly and not a likely option for the home grower. Performing a simple brix test at various stages of your plants growth can give you a window into the overall health and mineral uptake of the plant.

Trying to raise the levels of brix by what and how you feed the plant offers the grower an opportunity to try something new and outside of their comfort zone. Good growers are always looking for a new challenge. This also encourages the use of organics, which many people are gravitating to.

In the garden, the way you defoliate can have an impact on your plants brix levels. Young leaves suck more sugars, because they are still growing. Older leaves, they’re happy, they require much less sugars. Conversely, we all know that the leaves make sugars during photosynthesis and if you remove the majority of them, you can stall growth by stalling photosynthesis. Go sparingly when you defoliate and keep some of the top leaves, because they catch the most sunlight. Growing buds are going to be a constant draw on the plants sugar reserves, which may be another important reason that we are checking for brix.



Factoids –

The brix scale was created to measure sap at an ambient temperature of 68 degrees. Many refractometers today account for this and will do a conversion, but even if yours doesn’t, you can find a chart online to correlate your results and temperature to the main chart for accuracy.

As night gets closer, the plant will send sugar down to the roots to feed the beneficial organisms. This will cause brix levels to fall. It is important that you check your brix levels at the same time everyday to create an accurate graph of your true levels.

If you grow outdoors, shade will also cause brix levels to drop temporarily, due to reduced photosynthesis.

A 100g sample of a solution that measures a 50 brix value, has 50g of sugars and other dissolved solids and it also has 50g of water. This should give you an idea for how actual sugar content relates to brix value.

#ChadWestport #HighScience"
Thanks man that’s a lot to unpack and digest. There are some challenges there to current wisdom like roots taking up external carbs that I need to research further.

Good read.
 
PerfecTrader

PerfecTrader

1,743
263
Thanks man that’s a lot to unpack and digest. There are some challenges there to current wisdom like roots taking up external carbs that I need to research further.

Good read.
I hear that brotha and when I read it, I copied and pasted but didn't realized how thick it was hah my bad brotha. Seemed to be from a fellow grower out there so didn't get that "sellin me on something" feeling. I'm done with it meow and feel educated enough to know at least know how to use it and why, thanks to you. Make it a great day over there and enjoy the weekend
 
PipeCarver

PipeCarver

Supporter
5,643
313
Ran into this while looking for more information. I got alot out of it but take it for what it's worth.

"I wrote this in order to better understand it for everyone. I know it is long, but I hope you enjoy and learn as I did. For many people, brix is a word commonly associated with the wine industry. Brix is important to the sweetness of the grapes which makes all the difference in regards to the taste of the final product. However, we don’t eat or drink raw Cannabis, so why is brix important?

Adolph Brix developed this scale in the mid 1800s and it was popularized by Dr Carey Reams in the mid 1900s. Although brix had been used by citrus and grape growers for years, Dr Reams formulated a brix chart that covers most common fruits and vegetables, as well as forage crops.

THE ROLE OF BRIX VALUES IN TRADITIONAL AGRICULTURE

In a single sentence, high brix levels will improve the flavor, nutrition and shelf life of the produce as well as potential IPM (Integrated Pest Management) benefits.

Brix is a measurement of soluble solids in the sap of a plant. Most commonly, brix is thought of as sugars, but brix really is a measurement of sugars, vitamins, minerals, proteins and other solids. However, sugars are the most abundant soluble solid in many fruits and vegetable juices, therefore, brix values primarily represent estimates of sugars in fruits and vegetables. When used in the context of Cannabis, we are testing the leaf, and those results may also show salts in the dissolved solids.

Higher brix levels in food have been associated with elevated nutritional values as well as having a sweeter, more desirable taste. Field managers are able assess harvest readiness for grapes, melons and other crops using brix values.

Using the Poor, Average, Good, Excellent (P.A.G.E.) scale for brix levels in various fruits and vegetables, home gardeners can take the taste and nutritional quality of their crops to the next level. You can also easily and quickly determine who has the best produce at your local farmers market by using a hand-held refractometer. Interestingly, fruits and vegetables with high brix levels are superior for storage, as they will not rot or mold, the simply dehydrate.

To find the brix levels of any plant, fruit or vegetable, you can use a small refractometer. Prices range anywhere from $20-$200 for a unit and the majority of them are small enough to fit in your pocket and bring out into the field with you. To find the brix value, squeeze a few drops of plant sap into the refractometer. This tool will then shine a light at the liquid sample, where it bends or refracts the light in a predictable manner. The more soluble solids that are in the liquid sample, the larger the refraction will be, which indicates a higher brix value.

Higher brix levels have also been associated with plant health and potential IPM benefits. Field managers that regularly check plant brix levels are able to identify connections between brix values, crop health and conditions their crops experience. The brix value in a plant has a lot to do with nutrient availability and balance in the soil. Low brix values mean poor nutrition and this in-turn means weaker plants, which pests love. Plants with a brix value of over 12% are much less likely to have pest issues. Brix value alone cannot describe the overall health of a crop, soil or farm, but it can give you a glimpse.

HOW DO YOU INCREASE BRIX?

To the chagrin of those that do cross-fit…. I mean grow organically, seemingly that is one of the best ways to get plants to have higher brix levels. By focusing on soils that are rich in organic matter, beneficial bacteria and fungi, over time you can raise these levels naturally.

Before we get to soil, you can’t have high brix without proper sunlight, or in the case of indoor cultivation, proper intensity and DLI (Daily Light Interval). This is due to the lights role in producing sugars through photosynthesis. Before you go and build your dream, high brix soil, make sure you have adequate light.

As with all living soils, the road to high brix starts with plenty of beneficial soil microbes. Microbes are in the soil to make nutrients available to plants. They ingest one form of the nutrient and excrete a form of nutrient that is more bioavailable to the plants.

Once you have the microbes in place, you’ll want to ensure a good supply of Calcium to the plant. It takes good microbial activity to make calcium available in the soil. If calcium availability and uptake are optimized, other mineral uptake will be more balanced and effective. Calcium increases cellular structure in plants that keep the Xylem and Phloem moving freely. High brix foods are higher in calcium than low brix foods. A calcium deficiency in the plant will almost certainly effect brix levels, but it is important not to provide Calcium in excess. Too much calcium will lock-out several other important macronutrients like Phosphorus and Potassium as well as micronutrients like Boron.

Speaking of Phosphates, they also play an important part of the high brix equation. Phosphates are a catalyst that transports nutrients within the plant, they can act as the trucker moving nutrients within the plant. Dr Carey Reams once said “ Available phosphates determine sugar content in plants”. When he said that, he didn’t mean that high brix foods are necessarily high in phosphates; rather they are significantly higher in calcium, sugars and trace minerals, but phosphates are essential to get them to where they are needed. Phosphates also play a major role as the energy source in the Krebs cycle, which is a fancy way of saying that phosphates help the plant get more energy out of sunlight.

Having plant available iron in the soil helps with the efficiency of sugar production. During photosynthesis, chlorophyll manufactures sugars and the micronutrient, iron, acts as a catalyst. Humic and Fulvic acids are a great way to make iron in soil more plant available.

Organic matter provided by humates make nutrients more available to the plant. Technically, Folvic acid is refined Humic acid and all humates contain some fulvic acid. Both humic and fulvic acid make other nutrients available to the roots, fulvic acid also delivers nutrients directly into the plant and then operates as part of the internal delivery system. Being able to move sugars and nutrients around is vital for good brix levels in plants. Fulvic acid greatly assists in this.

Since we’re on the subject of acids, you’ll want to include some amino acids too. Amino acids are the building blocks of all life. Plants use amino acids to build proteins which are then used to build plant matter. By providing amino acids, the plant does not need to expend it’s sugar energy to make these proteins. Amino acids can also greatly increase the uptake of Calcium, which we know is important for strengthening the stem and vascular systems. L-Amino acids help the absorption and transport of minerals throughout the plant by chelating the minerals.

Kelp or seaweed extracts contain beneficial micronutrients, natural plant hormones and natural sugar in the form of Mannitol. Mannitol is a natural chelation agent for micronutrients and has been shown to be helpful in the plants transport system. Kelp / seaweed also helps in building root mass through stimulating cell division. When it comes to Cannabis, there is an old saying – “the bigger the roots, the bigger the fruits”. Which in my experience is certainly true.

Other items you may want to add into your soil mix include earthworm castings, mycorrhizal inoculants, compost teas, humus and rock dust. All of the above items can be added to your custom soil mix or a standard 1/3 compost, 1/3 peat or coco and 1/3 vermiculite mix.

FEEDING FOR BRIX

In regards to the traditional N-P-K, levels of higher brix in plants are often associated with lower levels of nitrates. Ammonium Nitrates (NH4+) burn carbohydrates and reduce the brix levels in plants.

Because microbes form an important part in the process of making nutrients plant available, in the effort to increase brix, the use of synthetic nutrients is discouraged. Salts tend to disrupt the soil parameters that the microbes prefer to dwell in.

If you would like to use a soil drench, there are a few carbohydrate additives that can be used on the root zone. A good carbohydrate additive will reduce the amount of sugars the plant transports down to feed the beneficial microbes. In some cases, roots will absorb sugars instead of shed them and this increase brix within the plant.

An excellent option for feeding your plants in an effort to boost brix levels would be foliar applications. A well made mix can have a tremendous impact on raising brix values in plants. Phosphates, calcium, boron and other micronutrients can be applied as foliar sprays. Increasing phosphates in the plant through foliar sprays allows the Krebs cycle to transfer more energy within the plants, which makes the plant more efficient in storing energy as sugar from the photosynthesis process.

When a foliar program is properly applied the mineral density as well as the carbohydrates or sugars within the plant is increased. Some of these additional sugars and minerals travel down to the roots and are excreted out as exudates, which feed the beneficial microbes. They in-turn make minerals more available to the plant, which are taken up through the roots and increases the total dissolved solids in the plant. This process explains how foliar applications can increase brix readings.

KEY QUESTIONS REGARDING YOUR NUTRIENTS AND HIGH BRIX

  • How much calcium is available for the plant to build healthy cells with?
  • Is Calcium in the correct ratio to Magnesium?
  • Does the soil have enough Phosphates to carry other nutrients into and provide energy transfer inside of the plant?
  • Is there a wide spectrum of trace minerals available to the plant, meaning, in bioavailable form?
  • How active is the soil biology (microbes)?
HOW DOES THIS EFFECT THE CANNABIS GROWER?

Brix testing gives you a good, general, overall look at plant health and soil nutrition. But by no means is it a definitive test that will show whether a specific nutrient is in excess or deficiency. One plant diagnostic assumption we can make though, is that if the brix values are low, there likely is a calcium deficiency. If there are more sugars and other beneficial components like minerals and amino acids (lives building blocks), the plant can build more coveted compounds like oils, flavors and resins.

On average, a brix value of 12% is excellent and anything below a 7 is poor in regards to brix and IPM. High brix is thought to deter insects for a few reasons, the first being that with elevated sugar levels, when insects take a bite, the sap ferments to alcohol inside of the insects body. The insects can’t digest the alcohol and they die. This appears to offer natural resistance with no artificial or toxic chemicals. I did not find Cannabis specific brix levels and correlations to health, but one website did toss their idea of ideal brix for Cannabis at 12-15%.

Dr. William Albrecht, whom is regarded as a premier soil scientist of his time has said, “Insects and disease are the symptoms of a failing crop, not the cause of it. It’s not the overpowering invader we must fear, but the weakend condition of the victim”. It was concluded that brix alone could not explain the lack of insect pressure, but the influence and combination of various nutrients and overall plant health carried more significance.



FINAL THOUGHTS

As ornamental growers, we aren’t very concerned with the taste of the raw buds. We are however concerned with the taste that the terpenes of the plant can offer. Wine grapes are known to carry many monoterpenes as well as a few sesquiterpenes although the direct connection to brix has not been established, that I am aware of.

As an overall guide to plant health, a Sap analysis would be more accurate and specific, but those are costly and not a likely option for the home grower. Performing a simple brix test at various stages of your plants growth can give you a window into the overall health and mineral uptake of the plant.

Trying to raise the levels of brix by what and how you feed the plant offers the grower an opportunity to try something new and outside of their comfort zone. Good growers are always looking for a new challenge. This also encourages the use of organics, which many people are gravitating to.

In the garden, the way you defoliate can have an impact on your plants brix levels. Young leaves suck more sugars, because they are still growing. Older leaves, they’re happy, they require much less sugars. Conversely, we all know that the leaves make sugars during photosynthesis and if you remove the majority of them, you can stall growth by stalling photosynthesis. Go sparingly when you defoliate and keep some of the top leaves, because they catch the most sunlight. Growing buds are going to be a constant draw on the plants sugar reserves, which may be another important reason that we are checking for brix.



Factoids –

The brix scale was created to measure sap at an ambient temperature of 68 degrees. Many refractometers today account for this and will do a conversion, but even if yours doesn’t, you can find a chart online to correlate your results and temperature to the main chart for accuracy.

As night gets closer, the plant will send sugar down to the roots to feed the beneficial organisms. This will cause brix levels to fall. It is important that you check your brix levels at the same time everyday to create an accurate graph of your true levels.

If you grow outdoors, shade will also cause brix levels to drop temporarily, due to reduced photosynthesis.

A 100g sample of a solution that measures a 50 brix value, has 50g of sugars and other dissolved solids and it also has 50g of water. This should give you an idea for how actual sugar content relates to brix value.

#ChadWestport #HighScience"
"
If you would like to use a soil drench, there are a few carbohydrate additives that can be used on the root zone."
Does this mean there's .....another product to look for?

"When a foliar program is properly applied the mineral density as well as the carbohydrates or sugars within the plant is increased."

more stuff to get to get a better Brix........lol......i'm going to need a bigger boat!!!
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
"

Does this mean there's .....another product to look for?

"When a foliar program is properly applied the mineral density as well as the carbohydrates or sugars within the plant is increased."

more stuff to get to get a better Brix........lol......i'm going to need a bigger boat!!!

I'm of 2 minds on this brix thing.

Implicit in the idea of chasing Brix is that the higher numbers result in better harvests. Define better.

@Dr.Green55 made mention of using Brix to tune nutrients on another thread. That is where I started this journey. They are cheap, so why not see what's what? Problem is I am like a dog that chases the garbage truck, now that I have caught it, what the hell do I do with it?

I don't find any cannabis specific literature on brix, other than blog posts and magazine articles. Cannabis fruit is pretty different than something like grapes where the sweetness directly impacts the taste, or the fermentation if making wine. Comparisons can be made, but I can't answer @PipeCarver 's question about why yellow leaves are higher brix than healthy ones.

Does higher brix = more THC? More harvest mass? More terpenes? Or does it not translate into the fruit like it does with cantaloupe?

All I can do is try to figure it out on my own at this point. I'll get to work on that but I am months out from any meaningful conclusions.


I'm not buying anything new to throw at this personally. Gonna work with what I have and see whats what.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
A small white paper about carb uptake. Credit to @N1ghtL1ght
Thank you.

Really found this interesting

For example, Arabidopsis thaliana is widely used in scientific research as a model for plant development. In the agricultural sciences, this humble plant plays the role that mice and Drosophila flies play in animal biology. Arabidopsis is typically cultivated in an artificial medium, such as agar. For over a century, scientists have observed that adding carbs to agar enhances growth and “modulates adventitious rooting” in Arabidopsis. In other words, carbohydrates promote strong root development.

Numerous other studies have demonstrated that carbohydrates influence ion uptake by the roots and other developmental processes (e.g., Bechtold, et al., 2000; Kobayashi, K., et al., 2003). All this points clearly to carbohydrate uptake by plants.

Scientists have confirmed the existence of carbohydrate transporters in roots. Indeed, the mechanism of carbohydrate absorption by plants has been discovered: Roots have special transporter proteins that recognize carbohydrate molecules, bind to them, and translocate them into the roots (Saglio and Xia, 1988).

Researchers believe the primary function of these transporters is to capture root exudates—i.e., to prevent carbohydrates from leaching from the roots. However, these transporters will take up all carbs made available. For example, in natural soils, transporters take up carbohydrates resulting from plant decay. It should be noted that the process of carbohydrate transport is costly for plants. Carb absorption does require energy. However, the energy gained from ready-made carbohydrate molecules far exceeds the energy expended on transport. Karadjov / CARBOHYDRATES AND BIGGER YIELDS 5 The mere existence of an active transport system suggests that the active uptake of carbohydrates has a net positive benefit for plants. Spectacular examples include carrots and sugar beets. Their roots, already rich in carbohydrates, avidly absorb more carbs whenever given the opportunity. Your plants do too.


Pretty much a big wow for me.

I'll be pulling those supporting papers and reading them all this weekend. Cheers.

BTW haven't seen @N1ghtL1ght in a while, hope all is well.


EDIT: @Aqua Man @Anthem check this out. Sure is different than what we have been preaching.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
OK the more I read into that I realized it was a position paper to sell bud candy from Advanced Nutrients. But these sources still hold promise.

References

Bechtold, N., et al., 2000. Monosaccharide/proton symporter AtSTP1 plays a major role in uptake and response of Arabidopsis seeds and seedlings to sugars. Plant Journal, 24 (6), pp. 849–57.

Beevers, H. and Grant, B. R., 1964. Absorption of sugars by plant tissues. Plant Physiology, 39 (1), pp. 78–85.

Jones, D.L. and Kuzyakov, Y., 2006. Glucose uptake by maize roots and its transformation in the rhizosphere. Soil Biology and Biochemistry, 38 (5), pp. 851–60.

Kanayama, Y., Ofosu-Anim, J., and Yamaki, S., 1998. Changes in sugar uptake by excised discs and its stimulation by abscisic and indoleacetic acids during melon fruit development. Journal of the Japanese Society for Horticultural Science, 67 (2), pp. 170–5.

Knudson, L., 1917. The toxicity of galactose and mannose for green plants and the antagonistic action of other sugars toward these. American Journal of Botany, July issue, 4 (7), pp. 430–7.

Kobayashi, K., et al., 2003. Sugar-induced adventitious roots in Arabidopsis seedlings. Journal of Plant Research, 116 (2), pp. 83–91.

Saglio, P.H. and Xia, Jian-Hua, 1988. Characterization of the hexose transport system in maize root tips. Plant Physiology, 88 (4), pp. 1015–20.

Thomas, D.R. and Weir, N.R., 1967. A note on sucrose and glucose uptake by apical segments of tomato roots. New Phytologist, 66 (1), pp. 125–9.

Wyse, R., 1979. Sucrose uptake by sugar beet tap root tissue. Plant Physiology, 64 (5), pp. 837– 41.

Edit

I’m going to try to document some of the interesting points here as I read. But I’m saying if pubmed is to be believed plants including corn and tomatoes uptakes several forms of sugar


A second system was specific for glucose and its analogs (2-deoxy-d-glucose and 3-O-methyl-d-glucose), and a third one, more complex, had a high affinity for glucose and its analogs but could transport fructose when glucose was not present in the external solution.
 
Last edited:
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
3 3D printers in production mode. Breathing life back into the fog system this weekend. Looking forward to getting seeds wet.

I’m gonna do a speed run on these seeds and see how far I can push them. I should have good control over every setpoint now and a much better understanding of timings, nute levels, lighting and less O2 leaks.

Still hunting that elusive 90% O2 concentration in the root zone.

 
PipeCarver

PipeCarver

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Thank you.

Really found this interesting

For example, Arabidopsis thaliana is widely used in scientific research as a model for plant development. In the agricultural sciences, this humble plant plays the role that mice and Drosophila flies play in animal biology. Arabidopsis is typically cultivated in an artificial medium, such as agar. For over a century, scientists have observed that adding carbs to agar enhances growth and “modulates adventitious rooting” in Arabidopsis. In other words, carbohydrates promote strong root development.

Numerous other studies have demonstrated that carbohydrates influence ion uptake by the roots and other developmental processes (e.g., Bechtold, et al., 2000; Kobayashi, K., et al., 2003). All this points clearly to carbohydrate uptake by plants.

Scientists have confirmed the existence of carbohydrate transporters in roots. Indeed, the mechanism of carbohydrate absorption by plants has been discovered: Roots have special transporter proteins that recognize carbohydrate molecules, bind to them, and translocate them into the roots (Saglio and Xia, 1988).

Researchers believe the primary function of these transporters is to capture root exudates—i.e., to prevent carbohydrates from leaching from the roots. However, these transporters will take up all carbs made available. For example, in natural soils, transporters take up carbohydrates resulting from plant decay. It should be noted that the process of carbohydrate transport is costly for plants. Carb absorption does require energy. However, the energy gained from ready-made carbohydrate molecules far exceeds the energy expended on transport. Karadjov / CARBOHYDRATES AND BIGGER YIELDS 5 The mere existence of an active transport system suggests that the active uptake of carbohydrates has a net positive benefit for plants. Spectacular examples include carrots and sugar beets. Their roots, already rich in carbohydrates, avidly absorb more carbs whenever given the opportunity. Your plants do too.


Pretty much a big wow for me.

I'll be pulling those supporting papers and reading them all this weekend. Cheers.

BTW haven't seen @N1ghtL1ght in a while, hope all is well.


EDIT: @Aqua Man @Anthem check this out. Sure is different than what we have been preaching.
Doesn't Fulvic and Humic acid accomplishing this? in breaking down the compounds helping the roots absorb the ions....is this not chasing our tail?

I also took a reading with red sap...almost impossible for me to see any thing. it took my bad eyes a while to recognize the different colors of red....if I read it right it was at 10%... off upper leaves full of red sap from the QCblue I just hung today....
 
PipeCarver

PipeCarver

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OK the more I read into that I realized it was a position paper to sell bud candy from Advanced Nutrients. But these sources still hold promise.

References

Bechtold, N., et al., 2000. Monosaccharide/proton symporter AtSTP1 plays a major role in uptake and response of Arabidopsis seeds and seedlings to sugars. Plant Journal, 24 (6), pp. 849–57.

Beevers, H. and Grant, B. R., 1964. Absorption of sugars by plant tissues. Plant Physiology, 39 (1), pp. 78–85.

Jones, D.L. and Kuzyakov, Y., 2006. Glucose uptake by maize roots and its transformation in the rhizosphere. Soil Biology and Biochemistry, 38 (5), pp. 851–60.

Kanayama, Y., Ofosu-Anim, J., and Yamaki, S., 1998. Changes in sugar uptake by excised discs and its stimulation by abscisic and indoleacetic acids during melon fruit development. Journal of the Japanese Society for Horticultural Science, 67 (2), pp. 170–5.

Knudson, L., 1917. The toxicity of galactose and mannose for green plants and the antagonistic action of other sugars toward these. American Journal of Botany, July issue, 4 (7), pp. 430–7.

Kobayashi, K., et al., 2003. Sugar-induced adventitious roots in Arabidopsis seedlings. Journal of Plant Research, 116 (2), pp. 83–91.

Saglio, P.H. and Xia, Jian-Hua, 1988. Characterization of the hexose transport system in maize root tips. Plant Physiology, 88 (4), pp. 1015–20.

Thomas, D.R. and Weir, N.R., 1967. A note on sucrose and glucose uptake by apical segments of tomato roots. New Phytologist, 66 (1), pp. 125–9.

Wyse, R., 1979. Sucrose uptake by sugar beet tap root tissue. Plant Physiology, 64 (5), pp. 837– 41.
Just the facts Jack....lol....Cliffs notes please,,,,😁
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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313
Curious if it's worth my time to show you gromies how I do tissue culture? It'll be a pain in the ass to film it but I'm doing TC on each of these 8 finalists so I can make exact copies for future comparison, and to get around the issue of unexpected results and no way to reproduce it. Maybe one of these 8 girls has THCP? But only 1? I'm fucked if I don't make a backup of those genetics. I could reverse these 8 but I want a clean stress free grow to see capabilities. So TC it is.

Article about Tissue Culture <<<Click

That also means I'll have clones on ice to share.

I doubt anyone really cares, but I'll post it up if you want. Otherwise it's easier to just show the end result in the fridge.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
Doesn't Fulvic and Humic acid accomplishing this? in breaking down the compounds helping the roots absorb the ions....is this not chasing our tail?

I also took a reading with red sap...almost impossible for me to see any thing. it took my bad eyes a while to recognize the different colors of red....if I read it right it was at 10%... off upper leaves full of red sap from the QCblue I just hung today....
So yes Humic acid (and fulvic which is essentially refined humic - does the same thing) are not actually adding a sugar to the root zone.

To see what is truth here as best I can I will put sugars in one of the 4 supplies on the next grow and compare brix and plant vitality against their 6 sisters.

So if I put sugar on the roots does it come out the leaves in a measurable way? That's the cliff notes lol.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
I also took a reading with red sap...almost impossible for me to see any thing. it took my bad eyes a while to recognize the different colors of red....if I read it right it was at 10%... off upper leaves full of red sap from the QCblue I just hung today....
My best guess on the sap being higher brix is that

1 - The sugar is trapped and becoming more simple, smaller chains
2 - The measurement is tainted because of the red color adding more solids to the sap

#1 is like a banana sweeting up at the end:

During ripening, there is an increase in the breakdown of starch inside the fruit, and a corresponding increase in the amount of simple sugars which taste sweet, such as sucrose, glucose, and fructose. This process is particularly obvious in bananas as they ripen.

But I need more time to gain personal experience to feel more comfortable which one, or potentially something else.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
Thank you.
No problem. Got this from him a few months ago after saying the same about carbs, that they can't be absorbed 😉
BTW haven't seen @N1ghtL1ght in a while, hope all is well.
Unfortunately, he has disappeared for almost three months.
I had contact with him in two other forums, but no sign of life from him there either. Also hope that he is doing well and he will eventually show up again
OK the more I read into that I realized it was a position paper to sell bud candy from Advanced Nutrients. But these sources still hold promise.
That also struck me at the end, its of course not an independent study, but the sources there, which you yourself have already noted, make a good impression. And n1ght probably didn't see a problem with it either.

N1ght has also posted some more stuff on this with some notes, I'll throw that in here with translated text from him.

Many simple sugars are absorbed and then utilized, this is mainly to reabsorb the sugars of their own rejected cells. In strong competition with bacteria. The plant excretes beyond that still different sugars to attract bacteria to the root proximity, and can then fall back certain positive effects and this about the sugar release also somewhat regulated.
Night1

Night2

Schubert divides these into secretions or excretions, taking into account resorbability.

Charge dextrose performs best:
Night3

Special transporters channel some types of sugar more quickly:
Night4

Bacteria bloat can have many consequences. Can act like an extra dose of fertilizer.

The importance of the right type of sugar:
Night41

Effect in the artificially-generated extreme example:
Night5


He also linked the paper. But I still have to read it myself, just for the sake of completeness.
*Don't see the link when posting, it should only be there once - but also can't see/delete it when editing^^
 
View attachment Clearing up the Carb Controversy Do Carbohydrate Supplements Really Produce Bigger Yields and ...pdf View attachment Clearing up the Carb Controversy Do Carbohydrate Supplements Really Produce Bigger Yields and ...pdf View attachment Clearing up the Carb Controversy Do Carbohydrate Supplements Really Produce Bigger Yields and ...pdf
Anthem

Anthem

4,155
263
Well all I can say is that evidence is piling up that we (me) are wrong, and plants do uptake carbs.

Very, very interesting.

I'll put this to the test very soon. I'm from Missouri, you gotta show me l
Thank you.

Really found this interesting

For example, Arabidopsis thaliana is widely used in scientific research as a model for plant development. In the agricultural sciences, this humble plant plays the role that mice and Drosophila flies play in animal biology. Arabidopsis is typically cultivated in an artificial medium, such as agar. For over a century, scientists have observed that adding carbs to agar enhances growth and “modulates adventitious rooting” in Arabidopsis. In other words, carbohydrates promote strong root development.

Numerous other studies have demonstrated that carbohydrates influence ion uptake by the roots and other developmental processes (e.g., Bechtold, et al., 2000; Kobayashi, K., et al., 2003). All this points clearly to carbohydrate uptake by plants.

Scientists have confirmed the existence of carbohydrate transporters in roots. Indeed, the mechanism of carbohydrate absorption by plants has been discovered: Roots have special transporter proteins that recognize carbohydrate molecules, bind to them, and translocate them into the roots (Saglio and Xia, 1988).

Researchers believe the primary function of these transporters is to capture root exudates—i.e., to prevent carbohydrates from leaching from the roots. However, these transporters will take up all carbs made available. For example, in natural soils, transporters take up carbohydrates resulting from plant decay. It should be noted that the process of carbohydrate transport is costly for plants. Carb absorption does require energy. However, the energy gained from ready-made carbohydrate molecules far exceeds the energy expended on transport. Karadjov / CARBOHYDRATES AND BIGGER YIELDS 5 The mere existence of an active transport system suggests that the active uptake of carbohydrates has a net positive benefit for plants. Spectacular examples include carrots and sugar beets. Their roots, already rich in carbohydrates, avidly absorb more carbs whenever given the opportunity. Your plants do too.


Pretty much a big wow for me.

I'll be pulling those supporting papers and reading them all this weekend. Cheers.

BTW haven't seen @N1ghtL1ght in a while, hope all is well.


EDIT: @Aqua Man @Anthem check this out. Sure is different than what we have been preaching.
This is a tuff one to explain for me. While I read the paper several times I am not actually seeing the science stating any where in the paper that the plant is uptake sugars. To me it seems like the paper is wrote in a manner to say something without saying it at all. Meaning on the surface the paper is stating yes plants uptake carbohydrates but the part I do not see is the how and why. I see things like the plant has a system for carrying and storing carbs, but the plant also secretes carbs to feed the microbes. He is trying to say this system can work both for secreting and up taking carbs. Where is the proof in this? If you take a look at the physical pictures of the 1917 study on wheat and sugars used in the paper take a look at example 3 exactly the same make up as example #4 but looks worse than example #5 with no sugars. IN my head looking at the date of that data used in the wheat and sugar example. 1917 what sort of controls did they have in place at that time for accurate data collection. To use his thinking in the paper in the same way as he uses it. Are wheat farmers today adding supplemental carbs to the soil to increase yield? I could not find this in practice today. For myself the nail in the coffin for this white paper are as follows.
#1. There is no real hypothesis. Where is the experiment showing Sample A and Sample B indicating the difference in performance of the plant. The paper dances around but never really addresses the subject. Sure there is the agar thing but how does that translate to a mature plant using carbs from outside the plant? He goes so far at to associate carb loading for athletes as the same as carb loading a plant.
#2. HIs research facility is funded by Advanced Nutrients, they pay the bill for the research.
#3. Bud Candy is specifically the only correct form of carbohydrates to feed the plant.
I have heard about these sort of white papers coming out of advanced in the past and they typically try to use old and odd findings to substantiate their claims. Add to this the fact that I just went to the Advanced site and I punched in Mirco Veg advanced grower and I have a total of 10 bottle to buy to run their formula. Advanced is well knowns as taking advantage of the consumer and based on the number of additional inputs required to run their line up the information speaks for itself.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

5,044
313
This is a tuff one to explain for me. While I read the paper several times I am not actually seeing the science stating any where in the paper that the plant is uptake sugars. To me it seems like the paper is wrote in a manner to say something without saying it at all. Meaning on the surface the paper is stating yes plants uptake carbohydrates but the part I do not see is the how and why. I see things like the plant has a system for carrying and storing carbs, but the plant also secretes carbs to feed the microbes. He is trying to say this system can work both for secreting and up taking carbs. Where is the proof in this? If you take a look at the physical pictures of the 1917 study on wheat and sugars used in the paper take a look at example 3 exactly the same make up as example #4 but looks worse than example #5 with no sugars. IN my head looking at the date of that data used in the wheat and sugar example. 1917 what sort of controls did they have in place at that time for accurate data collection. To use his thinking in the paper in the same way as he uses it. Are wheat farmers today adding supplemental carbs to the soil to increase yield? I could not find this in practice today. For myself the nail in the coffin for this white paper are as follows.
#1. There is no real hypothesis. Where is the experiment showing Sample A and Sample B indicating the difference in performance of the plant. The paper dances around but never really addresses the subject. Sure there is the agar thing but how does that translate to a mature plant using carbs from outside the plant? He goes so far at to associate carb loading for athletes as the same as carb loading a plant.
#2. HIs research facility is funded by Advanced Nutrients, they pay the bill for the research.
#3. Bud Candy is specifically the only correct form of carbohydrates to feed the plant.
I have heard about these sort of white papers coming out of advanced in the past and they typically try to use old and odd findings to substantiate their claims. Add to this the fact that I just went to the Advanced site and I punched in Mirco Veg advanced grower and I have a total of 10 bottle to buy to run their formula. Advanced is well knowns as taking advantage of the consumer and based on the number of additional inputs required to run their line up the information speaks for itself.
You missed the point. I'm beyond the bud candy paper having dismissed it because of the source and am into the sources it lists. I put them all above, there is some interesting reading there, and I am not done. Those are on pubmed and are in real science journals. If you look you will see the same clear evidence I do.

It's hard to let go of a closely held belief. Turns out evidence suggests we are wrong and plants do take in carbs and it is impactful in the plants in a number of ways.

I'd like to see for myself and intend to on my next grow as I described above. I'll share results regardless of outcome. I know you of all people appreciate the scientific method.

I couldn't care less about bud candy fwiw.
 
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