Grow Journal - A Noobie Diary.

Frankster · Oct 1, 2020

FourthCity said:
When you say "adjusted based on plant response" do you just mean visually and disregard any feedback that can be seen in ppms?

He just said not to check the runoff... or at least not the ppms. Im not sure what else to look at other than ph, are you saying dial down the ph or the nutrients? I can see why the op is getting confused here.

He said, not the PPM's because your going to half strength anyhow (so it will be lowered) and were not sure the PPM's are accurate in this case. pH is still very much relevant here.

Also, I was suggesting maybe "dialing down" the lighting a bit, (not a lot, just a little, for a short time) until the plants respond/recover and your back on track. Sorry If I wasn't very clear.

iTurniGrow · Oct 1, 2020

Actually love this forum. It's like a big family lol. All learning new things daily. Cheers guys it clears it up quite a bit. I know how to proceed from here, I'll keep you all updated :)

Frankster · Oct 1, 2020

iTurniGrow said:
Actually love this forum. It's like a big family lol. All learning new things daily. Cheers guys it clears it up quite a bit. I know how to proceed from here, I'll keep you all updated :)

Yea, I like it too, for the very same reason. It's like an encyclopedia of anything cannabis, and the moderators here are outstanding.

FourthCity · Oct 1, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Yep just check ph and pay attention to soil microbes and conditions as they are extremely important for organic grows.

Can use ppm to see which way its trending but not so much to tell the nutrient availability.

To accurately understand the feed in the soil you would need soil tests done like they do in farming

I never suggested the runoff ppms are an accurate source of the feed in the soil, I suggested considering the direction the runoff is trending to influence the amount of feed and identify possible lockout situations that might require flushing.

Frankster said:
He said, not the PPM's because your going to half strength anyhow (so it will be lowered) and were not sure the PPM's are accurate in this case. pH is still very much relevant here.

Also, I was suggesting maybe "dialing down" the lighting a bit, (not a lot, just a little, for a short time) until the plants respond/recover and your back on track. Sorry If I wasn't very clear.

Sorry, I meant to ask what you meant by half strength not the dial down bit. I think you are both really trying to say half dose not half strength since you are saying the ppms aren't an accurate way of measuring the strength. So if I am understanding correctly you don't want the op to cut their ppms in half you want them to cut the recommended dosage per liter in half?

I still think the ppms are a good baseline that can be used monitor general nutrient levels even if they don't give the whole picture with organics but I admit to not having much soil experience to stand on here. It just seems to me that having a very high nutrient concentration runoff from any medium will eventually cause issues even if the nutrients are organic.

Aqua Man · Oct 1, 2020

FourthCity said:
I never suggested the runoff ppms are an accurate source of the feed in the soil, I suggested considering the direction the runoff is trending to influence the amount of feed and identify possible lockout situations that might require flushing.

Sorry, I meant to ask what you meant by half strength not the dial down bit. I think you are both really trying to say half dose not half strength since you are saying the ppms aren't an accurate way of measuring the strength. So if I am understanding correctly you don't want the op to cut their ppms in half you want them to cut the recommended dosage per liter in half?

I still think the ppms are a good baseline that can be used monitor general nutrient levels even if they don't give the whole picture with organics but I admit to not having much soil experience to stand on here. It just seems to me that having a very high nutrient concentration runoff from any medium will eventually cause issues even if the nutrients are organic.

I agree with all of this and yes half recommended. I just feel its important for people growing with organics to understand the limited value of ppm. Like you say it can be used for trending and still provides that benefit. It's just important to understand its limitations. For organics its all about ph and health of the soil microbes. Personally i wouldn't bother with ppm but thats not to say its completely useless.

FourthCity · Oct 1, 2020

Aqua Man said:
I agree with all of this and yes half recommended. I just feel its important for people growing with organics to understand the limited value of ppm. Like you say it can be used for trending and still provides that benefit. It's just important to understand its limitations. For organics its all about ph and health of the soil microbes. Personally i wouldn't bother with ppm but thats not to say its completely useless.

Aqua Man said:
You can't (shouldn't) use ppm for organics. Its not the same.

Just because I mentioned getting an accurate ppm meter and using it to monitor runoff doesn't mean disregard ph and micro environment, of course those are important too. Dealing specifically with the op's plant's health issues would you or would you not think the runoff ppm might offer some insight? If the runoff ph is consistent for several waterings while the ppm rises would you not bother with with lowering it on future feedings? I mean it sounds like you are agreeing that ppms are useful for exactly what I was recommending but at the same time you went out of the way to say that you shouldn't use them.

Aqua Man · Oct 1, 2020

FourthCity said:
Just because I mentioned getting an accurate ppm meter and using it to monitor runoff doesn't mean disregard ph and micro environment, of course those are important too. Dealing specifically with the op's plant's health issues would you or would you not think the runoff ppm might offer some insight? If the runoff ph is consistent for several waterings while the ppm rises would you not bother with with lowering it on future feedings? I mean it sounds like you are agreeing that ppms are useful for exactly what I was recommending but at the same time you went out of the way to say that you shouldn't use them.

No ppms could be over 2000 and still be ok with organics. Im talking about lets say you have a particular soil and ferts and your normally seeing 1000ppm and all of a sudden it changes drastically then it can possibly give some indication. But you can't really say you need 600 ppm or runoff should be X amount with organics. Ph and plant reaponse will give you far more valuable info than ppm when it comes to organic grows.

FourthCity · Oct 1, 2020

Aqua Man said:
No ppms could be over 2000 and still be ok with organics. Im talking about lets say you have a particular soil and ferts and your normally seeing 1000ppm and all of a sudden it changes drastically then it can possibly give some indication. But you can't really say you need 600 ppm or runoff should be X amount with organics. Ph and plant reaponse will give you far more valuable info than ppm when it comes to organic grows.

So kind of exactly like what I said here:

FourthCity said:
You need to measure the ppm of the runoff to determine how much to feed and flush. If the ppm of the runoff is rising above what you are feeding the plant then it is a good indication that the plant needs to be flushed and/or the ppms of the feed need to be reduced. Likewise, if the ppm of the runoff is much lower than what you are feeding then there may be room to increase the nutrients.

Right before you said:

Aqua Man said:
You can't (shouldn't) use ppm for organics. Its not the same.

I'm really not trying to start an argument here, I don't think I ever mentioned the op's ppms should be X and I'm still not sure what difference you think there is between what I said and what you are saying.

Aqua Man · Oct 1, 2020

FourthCity said:
So kind of exactly like what I said here:

Right before you said:

I'm really not trying to start an argument here, I don't think I ever mentioned the op's ppms should be X and I'm still not sure what difference you think there is between what I said and what you are saying.

Ok you stated you need to test the runoff to determine how much to feed or when to flush. Can you explain what you meant by that? Its extremely rare to need to flush organics and again you can't or shouldn't really determine feed by ppm. Maybe im confusing what you are saying bit it seems like that your sayimg you can determine how mich to feed or when to flush by ppm or am I wrong?

Just to add for the OP nit saying you said to. when feeding organics you don't want runoff just water enough to saturate the media.

FourthCity · Oct 1, 2020

Aqua Man said:
Ok you stated you need to test the runoff to determine how much to feed or when to flush. Can you explain what you meant by that? Its extremely rare to need to flush organics and again you can't or shouldn't really determine feed by ppm. Maybe im confusing what you are saying bit it seems like that your sayimg you can determine how mich to feed or when to flush by ppm or am I wrong?

Just to add for the OP nit saying you said to. when feeding organics you don't want runoff just water enough to saturate the media.

I was suggesting using the runoff ppm to influence the ops feed or to see if there is excessive buildup of nutrients. The most simple way I can put it is that generally if the ppm keeps rising to back off the nutrients and if it keeps lowering there is room to increase nutrients. If you looked back in the thread the op stated they had used several times more than the recommended dosage of nutrients which to me seemed like it might have been the cause of the nutrient burn and lockout that appeared to be present on their plants.

My reasoning for suggesting to check the ppms was that if they had a baseline reading of runoff when they originally wet the soil they could monitor roughly how much of the additional nutrients added during watering was being left behind with future periodic runoff checks. I wasn't suggesting to always water until there is runoff I was saying to use the runoff and ppms as a diagnostic tool. With the excess nutrients that were being added I suspect the op would have started to see the runoff ppm spike just before the plants started to get brown spots everywhere. This information would have been a warning that too much nutrients had been used and could have allowed them an opportunity to flush the excess and lower future feedings to mitigate any damage.

I get that it is rare to need to flush organics but I think its important to remember that if someone has unhealthy plants and is reaching out for help that maybe something unexpected or unusual (to someone with experience) went wrong.

Aqua Man · Oct 1, 2020

FourthCity said:
I was suggesting using the runoff ppm to influence the ops feed or to see if there is excessive buildup of nutrients. The most simple way I can put it is that generally if the ppm keeps rising to back off the nutrients and if it keeps lowering there is room to increase nutrients. If you looked back in the thread the op stated they had used several times more than the recommended dosage of nutrients which to me seemed like it might have been the cause of the nutrient burn and lockout that appeared to be present on their plants.

My reasoning for suggesting to check the ppms was that if they had a baseline reading of runoff when they originally wet the soil they could monitor roughly how much of the additional nutrients added during watering was being left behind with future periodic runoff checks. I wasn't suggesting to always water until there is runoff I was saying to use the runoff and ppms as a diagnostic tool. With the excess nutrients that were being added I suspect the op would have started to see the runoff ppm spike just before the plants started to get brown spots everywhere. This information would have been a warning that too much nutrients had been used and could have allowed them an opportunity to flush the excess and lower future feedings to mitigate any damage.

I get that it is rare to need to flush organics but I think its important to remember that if someone has unhealthy plants and is reaching out for help that maybe something unexpected or unusual (to someone with experience) went wrong.

I understand what your saying and normally would be right there with ya but an increase or decrease in ppm will not tell you if there is an increase or decrease in available nutrients. I mean its likely if it increase there may be more available nutrients but there is just no way to know how much if at all without a soil analysis. Ppm really is not at all needed for organics, even with showing an increase or decrease you need to rely on other observations to verify if available nutrients are high or low.

See with inorganic nutrients we know the make up of the ppm and the available nutrients in it. With organic there is no way to tell what makeup of the ppm is available nutrients and what is not

FourthCity · Oct 1, 2020

Aqua Man said:
I understand what your saying and normally would be right there with ya but an increase or decrease in ppm will not tell you if there is an increase or decrease in available nutrients. I mean its likely if it increase there may be more available nutrients but there is just no way to know how much if at all without a soil analysis. Ppm really is not at all needed for organics, even with showing an increase or decrease you need to rely on other observations to verify if available nutrients are high or low.

See with inorganic nutrients we know the make up of the ppm and the available nutrients in it. With organic there is no way to tell what makeup of the ppm is available nutrients and what is not

PPM is less accurate than a soil analysis as an indicator of available nutrients, no doubt but ppm is still a good indicator of a general increase or decrease. The op's environment and ph were relatively consistent if I remember correctly, what do you think caused the damage that appeared on the plants and what other observations would have been useful to prevent it?

Frankster · Oct 1, 2020

FourthCity said:
I never suggested the runoff ppms are an accurate source of the feed in the soil, I suggested considering the direction the runoff is trending to influence the amount of feed and identify possible lockout situations that might require flushing.

Sorry, I meant to ask what you meant by half strength not the dial down bit. I think you are both really trying to say half dose not half strength since you are saying the ppms aren't an accurate way of measuring the strength. So if I am understanding correctly you don't want the op to cut their ppms in half you want them to cut the recommended dosage per liter in half?

I still think the ppms are a good baseline that can be used monitor general nutrient levels even if they don't give the whole picture with organics but I admit to not having much soil experience to stand on here. It just seems to me that having a very high nutrient concentration runoff from any medium will eventually cause issues even if the nutrients are organic.

Agreed, it's another piece of information that can be utilized, even though it's not an "accurate" indicator per say, it can help in indicating which direction your heading for sure.

I think what aqua was saying it's of limited value, and I agree with that very much also. Look to other indicators, and that's always a good advice to give anyhow, because it all needs to be taken in context for the bigger picture.

So many things can look the same sometimes is just so difficult to narrow it down to one issue, I think. Even if you see someone, and they got something that looked like what you had, the situation is always slightly different, or even more so.

I think that's why it really needs to be up to the person on point to have a good understanding of the various factors at play, and understand some of the deeper concepts, but I agree that can have it's own set of problem, (confusing) and can make things seem overwhelming or much too complex, when it's often not. It can be, but not generally not so. But I do think it's good to have balanced understanding, and continually grow, just like the plant we love.

People can (and do) spend there entire lives learning new things about this plant. I think the more you get into all the different ways to do things, you really begin to understand the complexity of it all, Growing cannabis isn't like many other kinds of plants, it's almost a culture in and of itself. It's just so friggin huge, and a lifetimes worth of learning the different things, not just learning, but doing them.

Innovations in hydroponics has largely evolved itself as a science based upon this one single plant. Pot growers everywhere have taken hydro to new epic levels with things like C02 and whatnot that no other farmers even would consider, or even dream about.

The science is simply huge in cannabis.
That's not even counting genetics, breeding, chemistry, biochemistry,pharmaceutical analysis as subjects (probably a few left out). It's just mind boggling.

Frankster · Oct 2, 2020

FourthCity said:
PPM is less accurate than a soil analysis as an indicator of available nutrients, no doubt but ppm is still a good indicator of a general increase or decrease. The op's environment and ph were relatively consistent if I remember correctly, what do you think caused the damage that appeared on the plants and what other observations would have been useful to prevent it?

I suspect it was probably either too high concentration (ppm) or a slightly off ph or both, then it slid down a notch and wasn't transpiring as well as it once was during happier times, it just needed to be brought down a notch and rebooted.

Once things are really dialed in and your hitting it with big rays, it's easy for it to get off kilter, it's a really critical and highly dynamic time in the life cycle. Flower is generally (at least for me) the point were diagnosis get's blurry and it's more difficult to tell exactly what's happening, if it's genetic, if it's disease, or nutrient/light related. The plants regenerative properties are eclipsed toward the end, because it's channeling it's energy into flowering.

Oldmanbud50 · Oct 2, 2020

Dam ppm this ppm that. This info is mind blowing for a newbie. Lol.

iTurniGrow · Oct 2, 2020

Oldmanbud50 said:
Dam ppm this ppm that. This info is mind blowing for a newbie. Lol.

it's alright, I know what it is now. Was one of the things I originally thought. It's a good read, goes from me stressing to everyone leaning something

iTurniGrow · Oct 3, 2020

Quick question in the bud of one plant we found multiple of these. Is this plant doomed ¿

iTurniGrow · Oct 3, 2020

Also found this on one

X

iTurniGrow · Oct 3, 2020

Ahh finding a few on some plantos..

iTurniGrow · Oct 3, 2020

We got careless. How to proceed from here ?.

Grow Journal - A Noobie Diary.

Grow Journal - A Noobie Diary.

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

iTurniGrow

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Oldmanbud50

iTurniGrow

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Grow Journal - A Noobie Diary.

Grow Journal - A Noobie Diary.

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

iTurniGrow

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Aqua Man

FourthCity

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Frankster

Never trust a doctor who's plants have died.

Oldmanbud50

iTurniGrow

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