growing with LEDs, turning out to be not so economical...

[Frostie069]

Hi there,

I made the switch to LED lighting only recently and in general have been happy with them but as time goes on I am asking myself the question, how is this saving me money or how is this economical?

In winter I will probably have to run a heater, I'm already running a much bigger dehumidifier which will do some work through winter too.

LED light spread and penetration is far from fantastic which means I've just dumped some good coin into supplemental lighting and I'll still need to buy another two to sufficiently light the entire tent evenly.

I bought a LUX meter a little while ago, I know it's not the best way to test but im not dropping the coin on a PPF meter just yet.

I'm in the max LUX range(65,000) for flower in the centre of the tent and only running 50% off the main LEDs, now that's awesome, I will add a energy monitor soon to see what im pulling from the wall.
Outside edges are half that which puts them out of the range they should be in for flower. No good and you can see the deference in growth between centre and edges.

So by the end of it I'll be around the 3.5k in the hole to light a 5X5 evenly, running a 650w main light and 4x 100w supplemental lights. holy shit!!
then add the dehumidifier and heater.

Previous grows my MH or HPS would sufficiently warm and remove a good % of humidity. As for spread I never measured then, however I assume supplemental lighting would have been beneficial for outside edges.

As a summary while I'm only running my main LED at approx 50%, I need allot more lights and more equipment to make the LED grow work, and it comes with big buy in costs. My main led also needs heaps of space between light and canopy, means a more expensive tent. I can get setup for veg and flower from scratch with MH or HPS for $250-300 brand new bulbs inclusive, smaller tent, no heater and less running of the dehumidifier.

Anyway I'm committed now so I'm going all out on the LEDs but I feel a little bit "had" from the economical side of things.

anyone have similar thoughts or completely disagree?

Happy Growing and stay Frosty

 

[Paratwice]

Which led fixture did you purchase?

 

[RootsRuler]

Sounds like you have COB style lamps. Bar style will give you more even coverage wall to wall. I have COBs but will be upgrading to bar style soon.

 

[Frostie069]

Which led fixture did you purchase?

HLG 650R
on the way is lumatek 100W full spectrum supplemental bars

 

[mysticepipedon]

Hi there,

I made the switch to LED lighting only recently and in general have been happy with them but as time goes on I am asking myself the question, how is this saving me money or how is this economical?

In winter I will probably have to run a heater, I'm already running a much bigger dehumidifier which will do some work through winter too.

LED light spread and penetration is far from fantastic which means I've just dumped some good coin into supplemental lighting and I'll still need to buy another two to sufficiently light the entire tent evenly.

I bought a LUX meter a little while ago, I know it's not the best way to test but im not dropping the coin on a PPF meter just yet.

I'm in the max LUX range(65,000) for flower in the centre of the tent and only running 50% off the main LEDs, now that's awesome, I will add a energy monitor soon to see what im pulling from the wall.
Outside edges are half that which puts them out of the range they should be in for flower. No good and you can see the deference in growth between centre and edges.

So by the end of it I'll be around the 3.5k in the hole to light a 5X5 evenly, running a 650w main light and 4x 100w supplemental lights. holy shit!!
then add the dehumidifier and heater.

Previous grows my MH or HPS would sufficiently warm and remove a good % of humidity. As for spread I never measured then, however I assume supplemental lighting would have been beneficial for outside edges.

As a summary while I'm only running my main LED at approx 50%, I need allot more lights and more equipment to make the LED grow work, and it comes with big buy in costs. My main led also needs heaps of space between light and canopy, means a more expensive tent. I can get setup for veg and flower from scratch with MH or HPS for $250-300 brand new bulbs inclusive, smaller tent, no heater and less running of the dehumidifier.

Anyway I'm committed now so I'm going all out on the LEDs but I feel a little bit "had" from the economical side of things.

anyone have similar thoughts or completely disagree?

Happy Growing and stay Frosty

The light spread on the older HLGs has much to be desired. It's not quite as much of an issue for me, because I run different strains at the same time, with different tolerances, slightly different heights. But then I got a very nice bar-style light, because it was on sale, and I was going to be in need of another light. Light penetration and light spread is better than anything I've experienced before.

Heat is another story. If you need heat, you have to supplement. I've found the ceramic heat lamps, made for pet lizards, are excellent, but they add about 300W of electricity usage to keep my 5 x 5 72 F during lights off and 80 F during lights on.

It's a bit of a learning curve. The plants need more food or you can't bring the lights up much past 50%. You have to gradually ramp it up. They especially seem to need additional Mg and K at the right times.

After my first couple of runs with LEDs, I was seriously considering going back to HID. I'd never do that now.

 

[Madmax]

I’d question that light meter .at 65k lux at 50% they must b pretty close.can you provide pics of the plants and your light distance.turning the light up will help quite abit in fixing some of your problems ..

 

[Cirroji]

I will never turn back to HPS/MH after this LED grow. I also have my room environment in check though.

when i hear someone has to have 850w of LED's just to get to a baseline in a 5x5 - you're doing something wrong/super inefficiently

 

[Frostie069]

I’d question that light meter .at 65k lux at 50% they must b pretty close.can you provide pics of the plants and your light distance.turning the light up will help quite abit in fixing some of your problems ..

I'll respond properly later when I have more time. Most recent photo, LEDs are topped out to top of tent and stay there the entire grow through veg and flower never moved. At the moment stretch got me so I have to work with what ive got, and currently im getting 65K middle, half that edges. Been like that the entire grow(high in middle half in edges), even through veg, the HLG losses lots of power quickly as soon as you come out of the core 3x3 zone of light. bumping up intensity will just throw up the core to high in the middle.

 

[2Bad]

I'm sure we've all spent at least 3K to get started. Don't sweat it.

 

[PipeCarver]

I'll respond properly later when I have more time. Most recent photo, LEDs are topped out to top of tent and stay there the entire grow through veg and flower never moved. At the moment stretch got me so I have to work with what ive got, and currently im getting 65K middle, half that edges. Been like that the entire grow(high in middle half in edges), even through veg, the HLG losses lots of power quickly as soon as you come out of the core 3x3 zone of light. bumping up intensity will just throw up the core to high in the middle.
View attachment 1340505

I grew with a 1000w until I got a 300w SF SE3000 I was so impressed with the buds I grew with it I bought another. I now have 3 I'm using 2 in my 5x5 and 1 in a 3x3 I also need to add heat and humidity in my basement grow my 5x5 has a 1250w fined heater and I use a 75w reptile lamp in the 3x3 with blankets on top.

I've mixed feelings, I started using them because 1000w costs a lot to run but 3 led's and heaters costs the same or more. I grow well with hps and led's are still fking me up so ????/ give me a few more years with the led's and I get the kinks out....

.I'm sold on them I just have to figure them out... I can always fall back to my hps if they piss me off....

 

[Frostie069]

The light spread on the older HLGs has much to be desired. It's not quite as much of an issue for me, because I run different strains at the same time, with different tolerances, slightly different heights. But then I got a very nice bar-style light, because it was on sale, and I was going to be in need of another light. Light penetration and light spread is better than anything I've experienced before.

Heat is another story. If you need heat, you have to supplement. I've found the ceramic heat lamps, made for pet lizards, are excellent, but they add about 300W of electricity usage to keep my 5 x 5 72 F during lights off and 80 F during lights on.

It's a bit of a learning curve. The plants need more food or you can't bring the lights up much past 50%. You have to gradually ramp it up. They especially seem to need additional Mg and K at the right times.

After my first couple of runs with LEDs, I was seriously considering going back to HID. I'd never do that now.

thanks for the comment mate.,

as far as I am aware, I have one of the newer models, still much to be desired regarding spread.

yes I am feeling like its a bit of a buyers issue with the spread problems, I should have gone bar style!

That's my point I'm trying to make here (maybe). LEDs are generally at first thought meant to be economical, but I am not finding that at all, its much to much if not more expensive than HID. Ive worked out that what Ive spent on LEDs will cover my entire electricity bill for a year. That's for an entire house and family with a grow room. economical? then add extra equipment and running costs.

when you say best spread and penetration, is that compared to other LEDs or HID inclusive?

yes I am still learning with LEDs but lets consider this, I raise the HLG to 80% to receive massive numbers in the 3x3 range then to have them half on the outside edges, nothing in my grow room has anything to do with spread other than the light. Previous grows I have been more active on raising light intensity and have run higher than 50%, I also was running a higher EC at the time. So I understand what you're saying and you're right but I don't think it's correlated to average light spread by a light.

happy growing

 

[Frostie069]

Sounds like you have COB style lamps. Bar style will give you more even coverage wall to wall. I have COBs but will be upgrading to bar style soon.

yes I feel I stuffed up on purchase

 

[Frostie069]

I'm sure we've all spent at least 3K to get started. Don't sweat it.

3.5k on just lights? that's expensive bro for something meant to be economical, when you could setup HIDs for a few hundred, which is the point of the post.
then add extra equipment that's working harder in an LED setup.

Also cost is cost, if I didn't want to buy it, I wouldn't, I'm just throwing it out there that LEDs are probably more expensive to purchase and to run than HIDs.

 

[2Bad]

3.5k on just lights? that's expensive bro for something meant to be economical, when you could setup HIDs for a few hundred, which is the point of the post.
then add extra equipment that's working harder in an LED setup.

Also cost is cost, if I didn't want to buy it, I wouldn't, I'm just throwing it out there that LEDs are probably more expensive to purchase and to run than HIDs.

Na not just lights, but for a grow it’s about 2K and then it just keeps adding up when u get more into it

 

[Frostie069]

I’d question that light meter .at 65k lux at 50% they must b pretty close.can you provide pics of the plants and your light distance.turning the light up will help quite abit in fixing some of your problems ..

Light meter is pretty new and I have been using it since the start of the grow. It has been pretty consistent from the get go and I was surprised at the LUX loss from middle to edges from the first time I used it during seedling stages.

I didn't spend massive bucks on it, it's a middle range with good reviews. I will invest in a better PPF meter in the near future.

as for distance, Ive fixed the HLG to the top of the tent which is a gorilla with the extension so she's up there and never gets lowered.

That's another issue I've found with the HLG, you need a massive tent to accomodate its lighting distances.

 

[Frostie069]

Na not just lights, but for a grow it’s about 2K and then it just keeps adding up when u get more into it

im 3.5 down the hole just in lights brother, add another 1k(almost) tent and we haven't touched the sides, chillers, pumps, NFT tubes etc, I don't even count the expenses anymore.....I've just put them into the necessities list of expenses, right next to the bread and milk.

 

[mysticepipedon]

when you say best spread and penetration, is that compared to other LEDs or HID inclusive?

HID too. I'm guessing it's because the plants get hit from multiple angles. The bars on the side are only about 20 cm from the sides of the tent, so sides and corners get good coverage.

 

[Frostie069]

I grew with a 1000w until I got a 300w SF SE3000 I was so impressed with the buds I grew with it I bought another. I now have 3 I'm using 2 in my 5x5 and 1 in a 3x3 I also need to add heat and humidity in my basement grow my 5x5 has a 1250w fined heater and I use a 75w reptile lamp in the 3x3 with blankets on top.

I've mixed feelings, I started using them because 1000w costs a lot to run but 3 led's and heaters costs the same or more. I grow well with hps and led's are still fking me up so ????/ give me a few more years with the led's and I get the kinks out....

.I'm sold on them I just have to figure them out... I can always fall back to my hps if they piss me off....

Someone gets it!!

that's all I'm saying, In all honesty id say they're MUCH more expensive.

We also need to take into consideration, LEDs have a long way yet to go, so advances in technology should be rather quick, So while our lights may be usable in a couple or few years, you'll find yourself purchasing new ones as there will be more efficient, adjustable and higher output while running cooler, but at a cost!

So when you take it all into consideration, I haven't crunched the actual numbers, but at a glance, Id say you save not a penny getting into LEDs and in fact start putting your hand in your pocket much more, to setup and run.

 

[Frostie069]

I will never turn back to HPS/MH after this LED grow. I also have my room environment in check though.

when i hear someone has to have 850w of LED's just to get to a baseline in a 5x5 - you're doing something wrong/super inefficiently

Thanks for the reply.

I personally wouldn't turn back either, buts that's not the point here.

Quote from Lumatek manual on supplemental lights just delivered.
"the 100w bar can be used for the propagation of seedlings and clones in a 120X25cm area or as supplemental grow lights to fill in areas around exisiting LED systems or even boost yield in HID systems".

They're not filling in spots in HID systems. There are people running well over 1000w in 4x4's of various lighting to get outstanding end results.
So I don't understand your comment about how much light people run in a 5x5? Are you testing for LUX or PFF or you just get a good end result so that's ok? because things seem to be fine in my tent too, but is it optimal? No

Ive been into grow room LEDs for less than a year but have been involved in saltwater aquarium LEDs for over 8 years growing corals. Spread and penetration have always been the downfall of LEDs, they actually have made different lenses for LEDs to get a better spread, while you may have a good grow going, you'll probably find you'll benefit from more lighting. even if you get a good spread with a bar style, then you have penetration to deal with.

interest to hear what numbers your getting over there?

 

[RootsRuler]

yes I feel I stuffed up on purchase

Not at all. The light you currently have will do the job. A bar style will just give you more consistency over the canopy. I do think that the type of light you use can be indicative of the style of grow you're doing. If you grow plants without netting them then a COB would certainly fit the bill.

I think bar lights are better suited for SCROG or SOG where you have a vast expanse and can lower the light closer to the canopy and still get good light energy on the edges whereas a COB can be centered over your traditionally grown plant and give it all the light energy it needs to produce.

COB's in SOGs or SCROGs aren't as suitable simply because if you lower them you effectively lower the light fan of the light meaning the center gets brighter and the edges get dimmer.