hmm yeah true enough on the ph. other than that one feeding of cal mag because of the assumed calcium deficiency I don't feed any nutrients. My soil mix is sunshine mix 4 , with ewc , and 1 cup of lime as my base. I added kelp, alfalfa, blood meal , guano (high in P) , Flower Power by welcome harvest which has a bunch of diff organic amendments. in regards to admendments I mixed a cup of each except 2 cups of flower harvest and 2 cups kelp meal into a container and mixed 2-3 cups of that mixture to the base (1 cf) and also added rock phosphate, green sand and 2 cups of each of those to 1 cf and than mixed it all up and added sub culture b and m about 2 weeks shy of a month, the soil mix itself has been "cooking" for about 2 months and abit now.

One thing I don't understand in regards to the perlite causing the problem is the fact hempy buckets grow 100% in perlite and I've done a hempy grow and had no problems or deficiencies I was experiencing with the start of this grow so i'm stumped in that regard. The plants seem to be doing well now that I transplanted them into the organic soil mix I made. The older leaves still show the original signs but those are the very bottom leaves all new growth is a good green and all leaves have been praying consistently

in regards to the dolomite lime rising the ph the main base is sunshine mix4 which is a peat mix so I added the lime to balance it out so I don't think my ph should be a huge issue in that sense. That's not saying my ph isn't a huge issue in general though.

my water source comes out at ph of 7. and I understand the concept of chloramines destroying all of my beneficial microbes but I've also heard that even adding ewc too the water will break the bond between the chloramines or any organic matter for that matter. So in theory yes the first inch or two of bennies will be killed but with how fast bennies die and reproduce I don't think it would make a HUGE impact on the beneficial population wth the occasional ACT added here and there.

greenthumb89 said:

I got rid of the perlite which I think may have been causing the stress on the plant and transplanted into bigger containers. I'm going to continue just feeding ph'd water. My question is my soil mix I added dolomite lime to it among other things so I would figure that the dolomite lime would balance out any ph problems would it not? I thought organics you didn't need to worry about ph.

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so why are you worrying? I think in relative terms pH is not important, if you understand plants and microbes and chemistry.
However, for the sake of clarity, There are elements in the world, all of these have a charge, positive or negative. Alongside this simple reality, there are systems and there is balance. There is a plant system, a water system a soil system and so on. These systems work independently, but they are interlinked, in so much as what happens in one, impacts the others. All of these systems seek a balance of charged ions in themselves
Our plant nutrients are listed in terms of their charge, eg Positive ions = cations and Negative ions, Anions.
Our plants, when feeding release corresponding ions in to the soil, around the roots, in exchange for a required ion. So lets say our plant eats some Phosphate, like a Pentoxide P2O5- (an anion, a negative ion) in exchange, the plant issues a H+ ion (a cation) in to the root zone in order to retain a balance. Each time our plants feed, this happens. cations lead to OH- ions and Anions lead to H+ ions, these are called free radicals, eg they arent required by our plants, but they stress out the system if we get too many.

Ok so now we have the soil, this system can hold on to all the elements which it will exchange with our plants in the right conditions. Soil depending on the base has a certain amount of charge it can hold. Beyond the capacity of our soils means problems. Soils are complex systems of all elements, balanced in ratios which change depending on where you are and the base content, water etc.

So go back to the feeding plant, I am going to pick one side to help explain, but this works in reverse of course....currently our plant is releasing H+ ions all day as it chomps your phosphates. Each time it spits a H+ in to the root zone. Over time these ions accumulate on the surface of the soils/ media, and it is this that changes the pH, but pH is a symptom not a root problem. Once we have loads of Cations by way of H+ ions on our clays for example, we have no room for other more useful cations, eg calcium, Potassium and so on. Our plants dont need the H+ so they build up and up, repelling all other + ions from anchoring to the soil, in turn our plant cant access them and problems begin. We as growers feed in more Potassium juice to resolve the problems, but this merely compounds the matter, remember, our soils are repelling additional cations and they are saturating the media unused as charged salts.
As we increase the + ions free ranging in the soils, our system begins to collapse. Soil is negative in most cases, so flooding it with positives fundamentally changes it and it collapses in on itself, driving out air and leading to increasing problems and plant death. Remember basic science from school, like poles repel, unlike poles attract.
Find out which elements our plants use are positive and which are negative. know what your adding 1st.
Soil as we say is a balance, there are some guides for how much of each element should be on/in our soils, eg location is different, some systems hold more calcium, for example.

I dont use Lime to control pH its not a sustainable solution, it causes soil compaction and has no long term restoration impact. it might be necessary if you simply have to plant, but i would restore the soil biology based on the target crop requirement and not add lime or sulfur.

Hope this helps

yeah I kinda understand I think. I get the part of the plant letting nutrients it doesn't use build up as salt and adding anymore is just compounding the problem itself. I guess I was just stumped as to why I was having the deficiency right off the bat with no feeding. As stated before having done hempy buckets with perlite being inert I didn't think it could have been the culprit but who knows. I have changed my watering technique this grow in that I'm not completely watering my plants in the sense of watering to run off I water every day or two but only a little bit at a time and my plants have always been praying now as to compared before where they would pray I would water and than they wouldn't be praying for a day and than pray now they're always sticking up so I think that's what I will stick with.

Perlite had nothing to do with it sometimes it just takes a couple weeks for microbes and everything to establish and ph to stabilize

I would not go adding anything else but unless new growth is fading
Usually after making a soil, one should do a slurry test .
Just to know what the soil is standing at as in ph and ppm.
being ahead of any curve in plant growth is better then being behind the curve and guessing ..

My toughts is ph is out and soil is on the higher side of nutrients from what you added but as weeks progress microlife is establishing and ph will fall in sink and that nice balance well lets hope
transplant that thing already

greenthumb89 said:

yeah I kinda understand I think. I get the part of the plant letting nutrients it doesn't use build up as salt and adding anymore is just compounding the problem itself. I guess I was just stumped as to why I was having the deficiency right off the bat with no feeding. As stated before having done hempy buckets with perlite being inert I didn't think it could have been the culprit but who knows. I have changed my watering technique this grow in that I'm not completely watering my plants in the sense of watering to run off I water every day or two but only a little bit at a time and my plants have always been praying now as to compared before where they would pray I would water and than they wouldn't be praying for a day and than pray now they're always sticking up so I think that's what I will stick with.

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sometimes we can make our plant leaves lift by being just under the number on N. :-)

Perlite contains compounds and single elements of course, yes it gives up stuff freely since the charge it holds is very light, but it is made of earth stuff which can be extracted by microbes, dissolved by humates, acids and root exudates etc :-) and therefore not truly inert because it does interact, albeit not on the same level as a particle of clay. it is very nonreactive this is true, but does contain Sodium (base cation) and Aluminum (acid cation) for example, other elements also see above. In excess sodium and or other elements can cause some problems with other nutrients and soil pH.
Soil cations that affect soil pH

• Sodium
• Aluminum
• Hydrogen

The plant manages its own system, it dioesnot care if the soil already has too many Na+, Al+++ H+/OH- ions, it merely balances itself buddy. So if you have a base cation overload, an acid cation overload and now a bunch of Hydrogen in the mix, you have a sure fire mix for pH spiking

Typically in areas of high Na and Al, i use a urea based product. This link might help you get the whole nutrients and balance thing
http://www.canna-uk.com/interactions_between_nutrients

this also
http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/mauisoil/c_relationship.aspx

Hope this helps

NightsWatch said:

Perlite had nothing to do with it sometimes it just takes a couple weeks for microbes and everything to establish and ph to stabilize

I would not go adding anything else but unless new growth is fading
Usually after making a soil, one should do a slurry test .
Just to know what the soil is standing at as in ph and ppm.
being ahead of any curve in plant growth is better then being behind the curve and guessing ..

My toughts is ph is out and soil is on the higher side of nutrients from what you added but as weeks progress microlife is establishing and ph will fall in sink and that nice balance well lets hope
transplant that thing already

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disagree but there you go, perlite is rich in pH altering elements, if you over use it, you destroy media balance, no microbe worth its inclusion is going to help your plant in these conditions. Certainly if the media is taking time to dry out, this might be an indicator of the media going base. Sodium is perlite, ergo perlite is a base cation, perlite is also aluminum, ergo perlite is an acid cation. Add the hydrogen ions from the plant as it feeds and you have 3 elements know to screw pH.

You should make soil when you understand that its a tricky thing to repeat. Balancing the CEC i mean. if you buy soil, and you have liquid nutes, why are you amending it with anything before you know what the constituent make up of the shop broguht is? What the C/N is, what microflora you have natively, a slurry test is a bare minimum, understanding is the first step.

note also with regards to microbes and pH.
Bacteria equals pH 7.0+
Fungi equals pH 6.5 and less

Understanding how microbes react to conditions, media types, etc can help you understand how the nutrients you buy and use, and the conditions within your growing spaces may also be contributing to a swinging pH by favoring one microbe type over another.
Where we have an abundance of sugars, simple carbons, we have an abundance of bacteria, these microbes secrete a bio film which is itself pH 7.0 and above. It is necessary for certain bacteria to produce this film, not only as a form of protection and transport, but as a way of fixing Nitrogen.
Fungi on the other hand can eat the sugars our bacterial friends like, but much prefer a diet of lignin, cellulose and more complex carbohydrates in order to source carbon. These tightly bound organic sources require a mighty force to prise apart the cells and get in to the elements within for the purposes of recycling. So fungi tend to secrete acids.

The way of the soil jedi is to balance not only all of the elements, the C/N and water/ air, root temps but to balance the ratios of microbes also.

good luck

Ecompost said:

disagree but there you go, perlite is rich in pH altering elements, if you over use it, you destroy media balance, no microbe worth its inclusion is going to help your plant in these conditions. Certainly if the media is taking time to dry out, this might be an indicator of the media going base. Sodium is perlite, ergo perlite is a base cation, perlite is also aluminum, ergo perlite is an acid cation. Add the hydrogen ions from the plant as it feeds and you have 3 elements know to screw pH.

You should make soil when you understand that its a tricky thing to repeat. Balancing the CEC i mean. if you buy soil, and you have liquid nutes, why are you amending it with anything before you know what the constituent make up of the shop broguht is? What the C/N is, what microflora you have natively, a slurry test is a bare minimum, understanding is the first step.

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Sorry but i would have to disagree

Soil pH is often an important consideration in soil mixes. Both Per lite and vermiculite are pH neutral, not altering the pH of the soil mix. They differ in their ability to buffer pH changes. Per lite is rated as low in its capacity for pH buffering, and vermiculite is rated as high. Although both can hold plant nutrients such as those in soluble fertilizers, perlite has a low rating and vermiculite is rated as high. Perlite contributes no chemicals or substances to the soil mix, but vermiculite can add potassium and magnesium.

hmm interesting points from the both of you. I whole heartedly agree that this is my first attempt at organic soil and i'm not doing the best atm. They "seem" to be doing fine from what Ive considered fine was with past grows. I usually grow in coco or just straight sunshine 4 and add nutes as needed but wanted to give a shot at the organic side of growing with the whole water only (besides ocassional act obviously). The recipe I used was a stickied beginner recipe. I know how to do a slurry test with the distilled water I get using distilled so you start with zero ppm pretty much so it doesn't taint the results is it possible to use rainwater or even tap and check the ppms before adding the soil and subtracting the diff or will the elements in the tap water fuck with the reading of the soil and make it greater or less than it really is?

I've learned, the hard way, that you can't just ignore pH, even in organic soil cultivation, and especially if you're growing in pots. So, now I pay attention to pH.

NightsWatch said:

Sorry but i would have to disagree

Soil pH is often an important consideration in soil mixes. Both Per lite and vermiculite are pH neutral, not altering the pH of the soil mix. They differ in their ability to buffer pH changes. Per lite is rated as low in its capacity for pH buffering, and vermiculite is rated as high. Although both can hold plant nutrients such as those in soluble fertilizers, perlite has a low rating and vermiculite is rated as high. Perlite contributes no chemicals or substances to the soil mix, but vermiculite can add potassium and magnesium.

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My understanding has been that perlite is almost inert. I haven't been using vermiculite but was seriously considering adding it to any soil mixes because I need water-holding capacity, in a big way (if I don't go with aquaponics). When I used perlite as the grow medium, I treated it like a hydroponic grow with regard to pH levels.

Why it is so well used in organic growing is it allows oxygen which microbes and Root systems need .
More the better to stop the possible anaerobic bacteria from taking hold .
I do not use per lite in my organic grows i prefer using other materials such as straw, leafs and rinsed road crush right off the street in spring :) branches etc

Important thing about organic growing is being able to walk out your back yard, and use what ever you can find . carbon based
Grass clippings branches that have fallen onto the ground.

We have made more difficult as per organic growing when all a person really needs is manures and greens they have all about enough to take a plant from start to finish

Organic growing is all about the ease not the difficulty of trying to make it.

Why people are having so much issues is there placing there plants in there new mix well before the microbes have established there ph range its all natural
but we again speed up the process in adding limes
Let nature take care of it there is no need for us to do it just takes time and planning ..

only time i check ph of soil is after i make it to see what is what i do not add nothing .
If ph is in range i plant if not i wait couple weeks keeping soil moist ..

and sure enough ph stabilizes in the mean time microbes have made imediate food for my new transplant then

hmm good points from the both of you guys and I appreciate the feedback. I originaly wanted to try organic because I liked the idea of growing a plant in organic media as it would "almost" normally minus artificial environment and lighting and some amendments that wouldn't be found in my local ecosystem. I also like the idea of water only even though I'm always trying to find a reason to look in and check on the girls.

Organics is great, even better is "True living organics". Feed the soil...not the plant.
The key to a successful TLO grow is that you use a pure water source. RO water is best...no tap
That you have a proper soil mix recipe and that it has cooked.
That you don't add anything that has EDTA chelates, or synthetics.
That during growth/flower you add the proper teas so as to feed the microbes. (bacteria/fungi)
Do not add liquid nutes directly to medium, only to teas, and properly bubbled teas....liquid nutes will mess with your ph and your population of microbes.
if last resort to spray any pest deterrent, do not allow run off to get into medium. do a good fresh water rinse afterward.
And in most TLO medium mixes, there is perlite. and vermiculite. A well aerated medium is what's needed