Help me understand Sap Ph Meters and Refractometers

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So i was reading the Aptus Nutrient thread and noticed that Dutchtouch mentioned both Sap Ph Meters and Refractometers. Last week i was reading about these same thing on . I think that these sound like great tools to use in your garden but i could be completely wrong. So can someone please educate me on these two tools???
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woodsmaneh

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The refractometer is a Brix meter used to measure the sugar content of plants. You squeeze the plant juice out and put it on the meter an close it to read the total sugar content. The idea is when the sugar content is highest it's time to harvest. MJ growers really don't need one as we use the trichromes as our ripeness guide. I have one but have not used it in years.
 
Redux

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The refractometer is a Brix meter used to measure the sugar content of plants. You squeeze the plant juice out and put it on the meter an close it to read the total sugar content. The idea is when the sugar content is highest it's time to harvest. MJ growers really don't need one as we use the trichromes as our ripeness guide. I have one but have not used it in years.
Oh I like this thread. A refractometer measures total sap solids of which sugar is the main constituent and the 'other stuff' is just as important as sugars. When using an analog brix meter you'd like to see a more dispersed reading. That's the 'other stuff'. Sap analysis has been used by main stream agriculture for years and canna growers finally starting to catch on. You can check out info from Pike Agri Labs, Bruce Tainio and John Kempf for more details. A good book to start with is called Ask the Plant which is mainly about petiole testing. Any agronomist worth his salt is testing sap of crops he's consulting on. Sap analysis is so much more than just sugars. Sap analysis is the wave of the future for quality canna growing IMO. But yeah brix analysis to determine harvesting is unnecessary.

For testing sap you can also get pH, sodium, potassium, calcium and nitrate testers. Mainly though brix and pH will do for most. Tainio used pH as a trending indicator if I'm remembering correctly. You'll see pH starting to shift before problems show up to the naked eye.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I understand that the NO3 testers have changed over the past few years, with models that offered metering higher ranges of NO3 becoming unavailable IIRC. <--- That's a huge qualifier, btw, IIRC.
The refractometer is a Brix meter used to measure the sugar content of plants. You squeeze the plant juice out and put it on the meter an close it to read the total sugar content. The idea is when the sugar content is highest it's time to harvest. MJ growers really don't need one as we use the trichromes as our ripeness guide. I have one but have not used it in years.
My interpretation is that sap sugar levels are that they are used as a measure of health, not so much ripeness, with the idea being the your goal is appropriate sugar content at the right times of day as well. Another instance of reading something in hardcopy that I cannot recall exactly where it was read, so I can't go lay my fingers on it and retype here for you. But in essence you don't want to see high sap sugar levels first thing in the morning (though hell if I can remember WHY, I think this was another article by Hugh Lovel I read and he lays so much on you that your brain had better be nicely folded before starting) as it indicates the wrong type of physiological activity, but you do want to see progressively higher sap Brix levels as the day goes on, as an indicator of health inasmuch as it can show how well the plant is making sugars. Or some shit like that.

One of the problems I've had with measuring plant sap is getting sufficient sap from cannabis. Even using the petiole, I have very poor hand strength and have trouble getting enough sap to get a good reading. Using a refractometer is almost second nature to me as they're also used in saltwater and brackish fishkeeping to measure salinity (or, more correctly, specific gravity).

The other, more or less obvious, is how one properly manipulates conditions so as to achieve this kind of sugar progression. Never mind about the sap pH! But it is another one that I'd like to get my head and practices fully wrapped around.
 
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Yeah sugar in canna is more a measure of health. Ripeness is determined by trichomes as Woodsmaneh said. Wine grapes are a good example of when you'd use brix to help target harvesting time.

The new project I'm working on is to help an agronomist I've dealt with on and off for the last 5 or so years get his cannabis specific product line field tested more in-depth this year. I'm a bit rusty with stuff and after this year should be pretty proficient at the whole sap thing. It will be an important part of the in-field testing. I'll share what I can as I learn more.

A few things I can add now is you want to make sure you're taking sap samples at the same time every day. Once you get your sap brix above a certain point, I think it's 12, your pest and disease issues basically go away. Interesting story about grasshoppers and think it was alfalfa. One grower's high brix field was left untouched while the low brix field immediately next to his by another farmer had a bad grasshopper problem. The farmer would stand in the pest infested field, get covered in grasshoppers, step into the high brix field and the grasshoppers would jump off and go back to the low brix field. He did this a few times. Your plants will also take on a blueish hue when you have elevated brix levels. You can also pinpoint soil deficiencies by sap testing in conjunction with foliar applications and see how things change depending on what you're spraying. Yosemite Sam here is much more adept at using sap analysis to monitor plant health and make adjustments. I got a message into him and maybe he can chime in. I know Tom Hill was using an Na meter and said it's something to keep an eye on cause if the levels get to high you're going to sacrifice uptake of important minerals. Can't remember if it was calcium, magnesium and/or potassium whose uptake suffered. Like I said I'm rusty.
 
Capulator

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I am sure @Jalisco Kid can chime in here with all of his vast knowledge on the matter. :cigar:

This is gonna be a great thread. I just got a brix meter last month and haven't had a chance to use it and I have a cardy pH meter to read sap but I only use it to test my water, mainly due to lack of understanding. :oops:
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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I understand that the NO3 testers have changed over the past few years, with models that offered metering higher ranges of NO3 becoming unavailable IIRC. <--- That's a huge qualifier, btw, IIRC.

My interpretation is that sap sugar levels are that they are used as a measure of health, not so much ripeness, with the idea being the your goal is appropriate sugar content at the right times of day as well. Another instance of reading something in hardcopy that I cannot recall exactly where it was read, so I can't go lay my fingers on it and retype here for you. But in essence you don't want to see high sap sugar levels first thing in the morning (though hell if I can remember WHY, I think this was another article by Hugh Lovel I read and he lays so much on you that your brain had better be nicely folded before starting) as it indicates the wrong type of physiological activity, but you do want to see progressively higher sap Brix levels as the day goes on, as an indicator of health inasmuch as it can show how well the plant is making sugars. Or some shit like that.

One of the problems I've had with measuring plant sap is getting sufficient sap from cannabis. Even using the petiole, I have very poor hand strength and have trouble getting enough sap to get a good reading. Using a refractometer is almost second nature to me as they're also used in saltwater and brackish fishkeeping to measure salinity (or, more correctly, specific gravity).

The other, more or less obvious, is how one properly manipulates conditions so as to achieve this kind of sugar progression. Never mind about the sap pH! But it is another one that I'd like to get my head and practices fully wrapped around.


I use a SS garlic press to get my juice, grab a bunch of leaves and crush them up in the press out comes the juice. I got into my brix meter 12 or 14 years ago I think, too much work and I'm lazy a bit too. So it sits there so I can say I got mine. LOL When you don't know what your doing lots of tools out there to use that help guide you in your decision making, brix being one of them, but in the long run you just know what's needed and that comes from experience, good and bad, with or without tools like Brix meters.
 
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Part of live plant analysis is what part of the plant you're using to sample. If you only use leaves and then only the outer portions near the teeth/serrations your analysis will show high for Ca. I sent some samples of a wild herb to Bob Pike at Pike Agri Labs and his thought was because he could not easily remove the leave's midrib it threw off the analysis. Still though much was learned from that test. I had some chickweed right outside my door that survived some deep freezes while everything else around it died. I sent a sample to Bob and come to find out that little sucker of a native plant was super high in K which serves as an antifreeze. Come to find out, from info I read from Bruce Tainio, that native plants typically have a high K:N ratio while human farmed (forced) plants tend to have higher N:K levels and thus the disease and insect problems...according to Bruce. Rev at Skunk says that K should at least equal P in flower. From my work with Bob Pike, who is a direct student of Carey Reams, I'm guessing that canna plants with high K levels especially compared to N levels will not only be more healthy they will endure more difficult environmental conditions late in the year when other plants are failing.
 
Herb Forester

Herb Forester

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One good use of these tools is for comparing upper and lower growth on larger plants. As I understand it, lower relative pH and/or brix indicates deficiency. I've been using this to adjust K and Ca in my nutrient recipes. K is very mobile, as opposed to Ca which is the other big driver of brix along with P, Mg, and micros (mainly B). Sap pH range for highest brix ~6.3-6.4

Those who are taking brix readings, what are the numbers, and what media are you using? I'm in heavily amended coco, with typical mid-day brix of 12-16.
 
Redux

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One good use of these tools is for comparing upper and lower growth on larger plants. As I understand it, lower relative pH and/or brix indicates deficiency. I've been using this to adjust K and Ca in my nutrient recipes. K is very mobile, as opposed to Ca which is the other big driver of brix along with P, Mg, and micros (mainly B). Sap pH range for highest brix ~6.3-6.4

Those who are taking brix readings, what are the numbers, and what media are you using? I'm in heavily amended coco, with typical mid-day brix of 12-16.
Sap target pH is 6.4. Yes lower pH and brix indicates deficiency. As for comparing upper and lower growth on plants that would seem to work well for things that don't translocate and will show you how well you have things dialed in as your plant grows. You can always make up for inadequacies through foliars. Typical mid-day brix fluctuating between 12 and 16? Are you taking samples from the same portion of the plant at the same time of day and where does your fertigation and any foliar applications come into play here?
 
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Herb Forester...wanted to add regarding your input of testing upper and lower portions of a large plant. I was able to get UC Davis to do a small pilot study on tomatoes to test efficacy of Sea-Crop. At that time I was looking at target marketing tomato growers in Cali for Sea-Crop. I was fortunate to work with John Kempf at Advancing Eco Agriculture to set up the trial protocol. John told me that using Sea-Crop would help eliminate the normal variations seen in older lower growth compared to newer upper growth. This however would have been verified through tissue and not sap analysis. I did not get the desired results for yield so did not pursue the tissue analysis.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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You got to work with Kempf? Ok, you've *definitely* got my attention.
Part of live plant analysis is what part of the plant you're using to sample. If you only use leaves and then only the outer portions near the teeth/serrations your analysis will show high for Ca. I sent some samples of a wild herb to Bob Pike at Pike Agri Labs and his thought was because he could not easily remove the leave's midrib it threw off the analysis. Still though much was learned from that test. I had some chickweed right outside my door that survived some deep freezes while everything else around it died. I sent a sample to Bob and come to find out that little sucker of a native plant was super high in K which serves as an antifreeze. Come to find out, from info I read from Bruce Tainio, that native plants typically have a high K:N ratio while human farmed (forced) plants tend to have higher N:K levels and thus the disease and insect problems...according to Bruce. Rev at Skunk says that K should at least equal P in flower. From my work with Bob Pike, who is a direct student of Carey Reams, I'm guessing that canna plants with high K levels especially compared to N levels will not only be more healthy they will endure more difficult environmental conditions late in the year when other plants are failing.
There's that, too (bolded). I was told I can still get accurate readings if I used petioles, would you agree with that? This is specific to Brix, though I do have pH strips that I've been able to get reading from because I just pinch & schmear. Again my own problem is how to manipulate to achieve the optimum numbers. I've chased numbers before and it wasn't pretty, killed a *lot* of fish. But I figure since you're throwing out these names that I'm somewhat familiar with, maybe we're speaking the same language? I'm still baby-talking at this point, but I'd like to grow it up.
 
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Seamaiden I'm working with John Kempf again helping to introduce his new 4 product soil and foliar program for cannabis. Last year a grower had a sample test the highest the lab had seen for THC, CBD and CBN. Mainly looking for experienced growers who are willing to work with John and his new products this year. Focusing on peeps I'm familiar with so far. The more experienced in areas like soil and sap testing the better. Rare opportunity. It'll be important to get in-field data as he has a very short track record so far with canna.

Far as I know petiole testing works fine. As the season goes on should have more canna specific and general info regarding sap testing. From this growers should gain a solid understanding of how to use sap testing for monitoring quality and what adjustments to make.
 
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Seamaiden I did want to add I know of a canna grower who's been collecting petiole data for awhile. I'll be focusing on organizing all available information somehow. Hopefully things will be in good shape before this year's outdoor season starts.
 
Herb Forester

Herb Forester

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Sap target pH is 6.4. Yes lower pH and brix indicates deficiency. As for comparing upper and lower growth on plants that would seem to work well for things that don't translocate and will show you how well you have things dialed in as your plant grows. You can always make up for inadequacies through foliars. Typical mid-day brix fluctuating between 12 and 16? Are you taking samples from the same portion of the plant at the same time of day and where does your fertigation and any foliar applications come into play here?
I'm following some ideas from Graeme Sait @Nutri-tech and Bruce Taino who he refers to in that link JK posted. Not so sure about Reams though, lots of pseudo-science there. Comparing upper vs lower leaves was mainly to check K in mid to late flower, mobile and most likely to affect sap pH. Fuzzy demarcation on the refractometer indicates sufficient Ca and a crisp reading shows deficiency. I feed Ca in several forms to make certain it's not a limiting factor (amendment, fertigation, and weekly foliar). Another check is for B, deficient if mid-day brix isn't higher than morning (when sugars are still at the roots). I do try to take leaf samples from similar locations and around the same time of day, depending on the reasons for testing. Response to foliar sprays shows quickly via brix, so it's a good way to fine tune feeding without having to wait and watch.

Herb Forester...wanted to add regarding your input of testing upper and lower portions of a large plant. I was able to get UC Davis to do a small pilot study on tomatoes to test efficacy of Sea-Crop. At that time I was looking at target marketing tomato growers in Cali for Sea-Crop. I was fortunate to work with John Kempf at Advancing Eco Agriculture to set up the trial protocol. John told me that using Sea-Crop would help eliminate the normal variations seen in older lower growth compared to newer upper growth. This however would have been verified through tissue and not sap analysis. I did not get the desired results for yield so did not pursue the tissue analysis.
This is interesting, did he discuss the mechanism of action? It's essentially a trace and micro mineral mix right? I couldn't find complete analysis, but there's a pdf brochure listing significant levels of selenium, iodine, and boron.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Someday... someday we're gonna see articles on cannabis cultivation in Acres, USA. I'm writing another letter!
 
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Herb that's some good stuff right there. Thx for posting it. Yeah I think using foliars in combination with sap testing is a great tool for growers. Stop guessing and test.

As for Sea-Crop I don't remember John saying anything about the mechanism of action nor did I ask. I'd have to dig through my old files for a full analysis. Yes high in B. Most of Sea-Crop is magnesium chloride as hexahydrate. The ocean traces get concentrated about 25x. It's 20% solids and less than 2% sodium chloride. There's a few threads here I posted a little info about Sea-Crop. It's the active organic compounds from phytoplankton and bacteria that really make the magic happen. John is a huge fan of Sea-Crop and has incorporated some into one of his new formulas. It's perfect for foliar applications and would be interesting to see what you find when using that pure and the plant's sap response.
 
Capulator

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Herb that's some good stuff right there. Thx for posting it. Yeah I think using foliars in combination with sap testing is a great tool for growers. Stop guessing and test.

As for Sea-Crop I don't remember John saying anything about the mechanism of action nor did I ask. I'd have to dig through my old files for a full analysis. Yes high in B. Most of Sea-Crop is magnesium chloride as hexahydrate. The ocean traces get concentrated about 25x. It's 20% solids and less than 2% sodium chloride. There's a few threads here I posted a little info about Sea-Crop. It's the active organic compounds from phytoplankton and bacteria that really make the magic happen. John is a huge fan of Sea-Crop and has incorporated some into one of his new formulas. It's perfect for foliar applications and would be interesting to see what you find when using that pure and the plant's sap response.

What dilution do you suggest when using seacrop?
 
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