Help with sour diesel!!!

[greengiant42]

I am running 6 different strains in 6 different systems and I am having great success with every one except for the sour diesel. Sometime around week 3 or 4 of flower they slip into what I am pretty sure is a nitrogen def but I try to give a little more of my advanced nutes con part A and still no change. By the end of week six I end up with dead wilted plants. Please HELP!!!

Here is what i have:
13gal cch2o x12 plus brain bucket
R/O water
Connessuir A & B
Botanicare cal-mag
AN Connessuir A & B, big bud, bud factor x, bud candy, rhino skin.
Could I b giving to much P or K causing them to lock out N????
Sealed room with 3 ton mini split ac co2 generator running 1350 ppm.
Will gladly give more info if needed to figure this out.

 

[johnnyrex]

Welcome greengiant I used to be a big AN fan but before I went undercurrent I heard of lots of people having issue with their ph and plant issue so I actually didn't try it so I'm sorry can't help you but good luck there are good people that will help

 

[Amber]

Sour D can be a temperamental bitch sometimes. I'm not sure what caused it but since you are using advanced I might try using a product they make called Revive. I have used it before with Sour D with success but not in the UC. I also steered away from Advanced when I went to UC but I have tossed around the thought of trying it out.

 

[Camnibus]

I've had a similar issue using Connoisseur. Seems really sensitive to cal/mag+, little to much and it locks out N. I drained and filled w/o additional cal/mag, they perked back to normal and it was a week or so before they needed any mag.

Just noticed the pic, they looked JUST like that.

 

[greengiant42]

Thanks a ton for the quick feedback! I will try that and see if it helps. Fingers crossed! If that is the case with the sour d, what do you think about doing this with other strains such as platinum og, chem-4, alien og....

 

[greengiant42]

Sorry... What I meant is could it be also doing this with my other strains just not as drastically so Im
not noticing it which in turn could be causing me not to yield to full potential????

 

[HydroRocks]

I would guess that the nitrogen is getting locked out as mentioned already. I would suggest a better nutrient system for starters, Connie is a bit hot for starters....never liked the ratio and several strains will show clawing and other symptoms at this ratio as well.

The other thing is the PPM levels, you could probably cut those numbers in half and still be pushing the limits of over feeding. The UC system is extremely efficient in nutrient usage.

The max PPM levels on average is about 800PPM (x5 Conversion) and even the hungriest of strains never needed anymore than 1000PPM max levels and at around week 4 to 6 you start to lower it back down again as most strains will not even take much nutrients at all past the 6 week mark in flower (sativa dominate strains would be the exceptions here).

The other problem is that there is not enough nitrogen fixing bacteria in your tanks to convert the nitrogen to something useable by the plants which is why AN is not the best choice for a deep water culture system with little to none of the bacteria needed that converts these compounds to something that the plants can use, it is a TOXIN to the plant until this happens.......

A formula containing nitrate nitrogen would be best for water culture systems in "general", and formula's that have UREA in them for a nitrogen source like AN's lines have in them, will not do as well in a almost sterile environment where little bacteria can thrive and live. All the organic inputs in the formula are deadly toxins to the plant in there "natural" state and need to be processed by living biology and enzymes BEFORE the plants can use them for nutrition. This is not a big deal in soil grows but in a water culture system it can be one of the most important factors.

If you continue to use these type nutrients then you need to get some biology in your tanks. Adding a bio-filter would be ideal as well as using ACT type tea's to inoculate the system with the needed biology that will help to process/convert all your compounds in the nutrient formula your using.

The bacteria and fungi create VERY important proteins, amino acids, and enzymes which are the "tools" you could say that are used to convert the compounds in the formula. Knowing this is the ultimate "secret" you could say to growing monster healthy plants. For example a single enzyme can perform THOUSANDS of chemical conversions in one second!

My best advice would be to switch to a more "water culture" friendly nutrient system like the Cultured Solutions nutrient from the people that make the UC system or a product like Veg+Bloom which is a one part complete powder you use for veg and bloom stages.

Step one would be to get your concentration/PPM levels in check to a more appropriate range, as you should never need to go higher than 800 to 1000PPM in the UC system, and by doing this you will see how much EASIER the system is to manage in general, and how much HAPPIER and HEALTHIER your plants will be! You will save TONS of money as well as you will not need those "gimmick" type products anymore from AN which is really what they are anyhow.

Be Well
HR

 

[greengiant42]

I would guess that the nitrogen is getting locked out as mentioned already. I would suggest a better nutrient system for starters, Connie is a bit hot for starters....never liked the ratio and several strains will show clawing and other symptoms at this ratio as well.

The other thing is the PPM levels, you could probably cut those numbers in half and still be pushing the limits of over feeding. The UC system is extremely efficient in nutrient usage.

The max PPM levels on average is about 800PPM (x5 Conversion) and even the hungriest of strains never needed anymore than 1000PPM max levels and at around week 4 to 6 you start to lower it back down again as most strains will not even take much nutrients at all past the 6 week mark in flower (sativa dominate strains would be the exceptions here).

The other problem is that there is not enough nitrogen fixing bacteria in your tanks to convert the nitrogen to something useable by the plants which is why AN is not the best choice for a deep water culture system with little to none of the bacteria needed that converts these compounds to something that the plants can use, it is a TOXIN to the plant until this happens.......

A formula containing nitrate nitrogen would be best for water culture systems in "general", and formula's that have UREA in them for a nitrogen source like AN's lines have in them, will not do as well in a almost sterile environment where little bacteria can thrive and live. All the organic inputs in the formula are deadly toxins to the plant in there "natural" state and need to be processed by living biology and enzymes BEFORE the plants can use them for nutrition. This is not a big deal in soil grows but in a water culture system it can be one of the most important factors.

If you continue to use these type nutrients then you need to get some biology in your tanks. Adding a bio-filter would be ideal as well as using ACT type tea's to inoculate the system with the needed biology that will help to process/convert all your compounds in the nutrient formula your using.

The bacteria and fungi create VERY important proteins, amino acids, and enzymes which are the "tools" you could say that are used to convert the compounds in the formula. Knowing this is the ultimate "secret" you could say to growing monster healthy plants. For example a single enzyme can perform THOUSANDS of chemical conversions in one second!

My best advice would be to switch to a more "water culture" friendly nutrient system like the Cultured Solutions nutrient from the people that make the UC system or a product like Veg+Bloom which is a one part complete powder you use for veg and bloom stages.

Step one would be to get your concentration/PPM levels in check to a more appropriate range, as you should never need to go higher than 800 to 1000PPM in the UC system, and by doing this you will see how much EASIER the system is to manage in general, and how much HAPPIER and HEALTHIER your plants will be! You will save TONS of money as well as you will not need those "gimmick" type products anymore from AN which is really what they are anyhow.

Be Well
HR

So are you saying that I should add sensizyme, turantula, piranha, voodoo juice to my system making it a live system instead of a sterile one as long as I am running AN?

 

[greengiant42]

I am also only running my nutes at 1/3 strength

 

[We Solidarity]

So are you saying that I should add sensizyme, turantula, piranha, voodoo juice to my system making it a live system instead of a sterile one as long as I am running AN?

Why don't you switch to a different nute company? I don't think that's a nitrogen lockout since nitrogen deficiency happens from the bottom of the plant, and usually from the inside of the leaves out. These leaves that are fried are all in the top 1/3 of the plant, and the yellowing is progressing inwards, which usually is indicative of burning. Are the leaves crispy? If so, you're burning. Nitrogen deficiency will usually just pale out and die all at once and not get crispy til the leaves are brown. Notice how your leaf tips are curving and crisping out first.

I'd recommend trying an alternative nutrient program - botanicare and House & Garden are great for getting used to a UC or for finnicky strains. I don't know anyone currently killin it on a grow who uses advanced nutrients (actually...i don't know anyone who uses it!) , but i've seen multiple UCs run on H&G that pump well over a gram per watt, two of which were exclusively diesel strains.

 

[HydroRocks]

Just to clarify a bit here.....

To answer your question, you should ALWAYS have bacteria and fungi inoculates present to convert organic compounds from deadly toxins to plant nutrients and something the plants can use. If your running a "sterile" environment, the you should NOT be using organic inputs in your formula as you will NOT have the biology to process and convert the compounds. This is a rule of thumb you could say.

If your running a water culture system like the UC, then bacteria and fungi will have a very hard time surviving in these conditions. This is where adding a "Bio-Filter" will help out a lot.

If you do want to run a more sterile type grow op, then make sure you use a proper hydroponic formula. This will be a formula with NO forms of ammonia in it, and it will have the needed nutrients in a "plant ready" form (Nitrogen Nitrate, ect.). AN is like the worst choice in this respect as they use the CHEAPEST source materials in there products like UREA for a nitrogen source. UREA is mammal urine in case anyone does not know. Of course AN will brag that they use only top shelf source materials which is possibly the biggest lie ever told by a nutrient company.....they are known for using the CHEAPEST, not the best.

I have seen folks that tried cutting the formula to more than 50% and STILL got leaf claw and STILL the plants show signs of nutrient burn and over feeding....

The other thing is that if there is a lack of "other" elements other than nitrogen for example, then the plant does not have what it needs to process things like nitrogen...every element effects "other" elements and how they are available and how much.

Another example is that calcium and magnesium deficiencies can show up on the plant as burnt tips.....this can also be caused by room humidity and VPD.

This is also a prime reason why AN is such a "gimmick" product. You need ALL the bottles they sell to make a complete and proper formula. AN will lie and say they have "combined" products which is total BS.....I know what the "experts" at AN are working on...and that is finding ways to SEPARATE the plant nutrients so you NEED them all for it to work well.

AN's bacteria products are the biggest "RIP OFF" I have seen to date! How ANY store owner sells Voodoo Juice with a straight face is BEYOND ME!! Anyone who sells Voodoo juice to his customers and does not offer any and all the BETTER more cost effective choices and superior products, must REALLY be GREEDY and HATE there customers. PLEASE do not waste anymore of your hard earned money on these gimmick products whatever you decide to do.

As mentioned there are MUCH better and CHEAPER choices that will make the UC system a breeze to maintain and a very cost effective system to operate. DONT buy the HYPE!

Be Well
HR

 

[HydroRocks]

Not sure if you noticed this yet in your system but you for sure will in due time.

When testing was done on Sensi 2 part line as well as Connie and also the PH Perfect Sensi 2 part line, the part A of the nutrient which is the darker colored solution as Part B is mostly clear/coudy in color, separated in ALL test ran!

If you want to see what I am talking about, simply take a cup of water in a clear glass container and then add one or two teaspoons into the cup and let it sit still for a few hours. When you come back to check you will see a clear layer of water on top and all this dark colored "stuff" laying at the bottom of the cup.

There are several formula's out there that will separate for lack of a better term to use and this will cause you problems in the UC system for sure if left unchecked.

This "stuff" will settle out inside the pipes in very hard to reach places. You wont see it because when you flush and rinse your system it will stay behind in the pipes hidden and the operator will see clear clean water coming out on the rinse and assume all is clean and ok.

This "stuff" will also collect in ANY water pump filters as well and when you go to rinse and flush out your water pump and system, you will see ALL this dark colored stuff come out of the water pump filter when cleaned. NASTY!

The PH Perfect 2 part Sensi line did the worst ironically and made the biggest mess or separated out the most you could say, and I think it was the original 2 part Sensi line that did the best and separated out the least over time.

Nutrients that are to be used in a water culture system like the UC should be one that does NOT separate out like this but stays mixed. In a water culture system you are going to want the nutrient system that you use to stay well mixed at all times.

There are several formulas out there that do indeed stay mixed and will not start to separate out over time anywhere inside the system's plumbing.

Be Well
HR

 

[greengiant42]

Thanks hr for the info!!! I am waiting for my local hydro store to get in the cs nutes I ordered a lil while ago and am going to run it head to head with AN. And after all of the negative feedback I am getting about AN in the uc system I am sure I will b permenantly changing. What do u think a good solution is for fixing this problem right away on the plants I currently have in the system that is about to end week 4?

 

[HydroRocks]

I would just cut back the nutrient solution to around 800PPM's maybe, and if you already have Voodoo Juice on hand you can for sure use that at label dosage. I should also mention that Voodoo Juice does indeed work well and is fine for the UC system, it is just the price they sell it at is unreal. It cost two or three times as much as other products that work just as good or better IMHO.

The other two products the Tarantula and the Piranha can be crown fed to avoid fouling up your solutions. Just mix it up and let the clay and other "carrier" compounds settle out to the bottom and then decant the solution off the top avoiding sucking up the clay residue on the bottom. This stuff is the "carrier" product in the powder type root inoculates or either its usually a talc powder, either way they are not water soluble and will never dissolve so you want to avoid it getting into your system and pumps.

I have seen people have good success with AN products, it just take a bit of diligence and work to stay on top of things at all times. Run your PPM's low and do weekly to bi-weekly change outs and things should work out just fine...

I would for sure try to use up all your existing AN products and I encourage all to do the comparison testing as you mentioned of doing.

Keep up the good work bro!

Be Well!
HR

 

[All4freedumb]

I ran An for 2 years in my Uc, even with all the hate people in water culture seem to have for it. I used it because I had a ton left over from when I made my Uc switch. I wasn't about to throw it away. I took it easy as I went with everything when getting started and I have to say I had killer results. I only switched once I ran out but always said I would go back in a min if I didn't like what I was seeing. I ran Heavy16, wasn't o immpressed, although I didn't take the time to nail down the mix. I believe that any good nute can be ran in the Uc with great success, some you just gotta get to know a little bit. When I ran AN and using ro in veg I started with 200ppm of Cal Mag and after veg I dropped to 150 till my third week I hit with 100 and after 5th week I stopped using it. I topped out in ppms ,500 scale, at 800 ppms, once hitting 1000. I used so much from the AN line, a&b coni line and straight a&b, sensizym, carboload, Voodoo juice, overdrive, big bud, barricade,h-2,folvic, nirvana, mother natures tea and more I'm sure.. I used cautiously and had great results all the way around. My first UC run had the most mixed AN products I ever used and that to date was my best run yield wise.. Now, I know there are other factors to that BUT it was done wit AN... I just wanted to add a couple cents here.. You could toss it all and start with something new but chances are its a little thing that can be fixed that is not the nute line.. I would go with what HydroRocks said and back off a little. Also, I noticed my UC loved a 12hr flush of ro at night now and again between changeouts, they seemed to like it more than uc's with other nute brands.. I think An is just a bit "heavier" than most, imo... Good luck to u..