Hermaphrodite Genetics

[Seamaiden]

You need a certain number of posts, I can't remember if it's 25, 30 or 50. And you're welcome. :)

What you speak of regarding using environment and other variables to control expression (phenotypic), growing a better product than what the seed came from, I think it's possible to a degree. Why? I did just that my first grow using bagseed from mid-grade weed grown by a lazy grower who missed the hermies, every time. He didn't know what he was growing, let alone how hermie-prone it was (which is why the weed was so full of seeds despite having been grown indoors in Fremont). That would suggest to me that he took little care in any other areas, if he paid so little attention or care to even producing sin semilla bud, ya know? What's the difference? The difference is vast.

So, if what you grew out of bagseed that came from, say a mids grade of weed, but turned out to be far superior, then I'll suggest to you that not everything was exactly the same. That, or there was something that occurred, genetically. And so, to answer that first question I would say yes and no. I found I could not suppress the hermaphroditism and had to toss many plants, BOTH male and female, that turned sex on me. All that did so did very early on and it was pointless keeping them, though I did because I wanted to learn, see what happened. I learned that hermie seeds show both sexes, and can do so in fairly equal proportions, they'll switch on you, but not all will, and you can get some pretty decent smoke from the result.

Now it's a few years later and I know that there are lines that are absolutely prone to changing sex, and there are those that are rock SOLID. In fact, it was because some of those solid lines hermied on me, indoors, last year that caused me to finally accept that I was battling a bad root aphid problem and not just fungus gnats. Specifically, it was because these girls all started popping bananas, and I and everyone else who's grown them out and who know the breeder KNOWS, these lines are fucking rock solid.

I generally prefer growing out and perpetuating the more stable lines, again in terms of hermaphroditic expression. But I do have one girl who's known for it, the Knucklehead/Teddy cut of Chocolate Diesel, but since I liked the smoke so much I'm just going to deal with it when it happens (spritzing with water, pluckin' the nanners) and enjoy my smoke.

 

[Sunbiz1]

You need a certain number of posts, I can't remember if it's 25, 30 or 50. And you're welcome. :)

What you speak of regarding using environment and other variables to control expression (phenotypic), growing a better product than what the seed came from, I think it's possible to a degree. Why? I did just that my first grow using bagseed from mid-grade weed grown by a lazy grower who missed the hermies, every time. He didn't know what he was growing, let alone how hermie-prone it was (which is why the weed was so full of seeds despite having been grown indoors in Fremont). That would suggest to me that he took little care in any other areas, if he paid so little attention or care to even producing sin semilla bud, ya know? What's the difference? The difference is vast.

So, if what you grew out of bagseed that came from, say a mids grade of weed, but turned out to be far superior, then I'll suggest to you that not everything was exactly the same. That, or there was something that occurred, genetically. And so, to answer that first question I would say yes and no. I found I could not suppress the hermaphroditism and had to toss many plants, BOTH male and female, that turned sex on me. All that did so did very early on and it was pointless keeping them, though I did because I wanted to learn, see what happened. I learned that hermie seeds show both sexes, and can do so in fairly equal proportions, they'll switch on you, but not all will, and you can get some pretty decent smoke from the result.

Now it's a few years later and I know that there are lines that are absolutely prone to changing sex, and there are those that are rock SOLID. In fact, it was because some of those solid lines hermied on me, indoors, last year that caused me to finally accept that I was battling a bad root aphid problem and not just fungus gnats. Specifically, it was because these girls all started popping bananas, and I and everyone else who's grown them out and who know the breeder KNOWS, these lines are fucking rock solid.

I generally prefer growing out and perpetuating the more stable lines, again in terms of hermaphroditic expression. But I do have one girl who's known for it, the Knucklehead/Teddy cut of Chocolate Diesel, but since I liked the smoke so much I'm just going to deal with it when it happens (spritzing with water, pluckin' the nanners) and enjoy my smoke.

The strain I used is a wicked skunk piss, that's the only reason I started the project. I like the cerebral effects(and smell/taste)as opposed to couch lock that so many med patients like 4/insomnia. With so many genetic variables present, my guess is that there is no way to determine what % of these plants(if any)will show male characteristics. That % would probably be different had I used a different strain. Plant 2 is now showing pistils, so as of now I'm a happy camper.

Have you tried DM reverse on the diesels?.

http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=product&product=REVERSE

Also, the thanks was actually intended 4/smoke here who PM'd me...which I can't respond to yet. And thank you as well.

Biz

 

[Seamaiden]

Nope, never messed with it, and will likely never. It doesn't fit into my natural and organic paradigm.

Just watch them, that's really all you can do. There are times when a plant hermies and it's useless to try to fight it, they just won't build the buds. There are other times when it's literally nothing more than a couple of bananas filled with sterile problem, requiring little more than plucking them out and maybe giving a light spritz of water to deactivate any remaining pollen (should it be viable).

I prefer Sativas myself. Just ain't into having my ass locked onto the couch all the time, it's an easy enough thing for me to do on my own.

 

[Sunbiz1]

Nope, never messed with it, and will likely never. It doesn't fit into my natural and organic paradigm.

Just watch them, that's really all you can do. There are times when a plant hermies and it's useless to try to fight it, they just won't build the buds. There are other times when it's literally nothing more than a couple of bananas filled with sterile problem, requiring little more than plucking them out and maybe giving a light spritz of water to deactivate any remaining pollen (should it be viable).

I prefer Sativas myself. Just ain't into having my ass locked onto the couch all the time, it's an easy enough thing for me to do on my own.

Hi Sea,

I've had similar experience, most recently in April. I had 3 girls going since the previous November which began flowering in early March due to Spring 12/12 equinox. I considered re-vegging, but these were already@4'. So I finished them, one hermied very late and bud size was reduced. A bunch of bananas appeared in after week 8. I cut one open and it was empty, or just couldn't see the pollen. At any rate, the plant was almost finished so I wound up smoking a few bananas.
:banana1sv6:

Have a good week!

 

[johnursery]

sorry about the double post

 

[johnursery]

heres one i like a little better...
i) Sex - Attempts to breed offspring of only one sexual type have led to more misunderstanding than any other facet of Cannabis genetics. The discoveries of McPhee (1925) and Schaffner (1928) showed that pure sexual type and hermaphrodite conditions are inherited and that the percentage of sexual types could be altered by crossing with certain hermaphrodites. Since then it has generally been assumed by researchers and breeders that a cross between ANY unselected hermaphrodite plant and a pistillate seed-parent should result in a population of all pistillate offspring. This is not the case. In most cases, the offspring of hermaphrodite parents tend toward hermaphrodism, which is largely unfavorable for the production of Cannabis other than fiber hemp. This is not to say that there is no tendency for hermaphrodite crosses to alter sex ratios in the offspring. The accidental release of some pollen from predominantly pistillate hermaphrodites, along with the complete eradication of nearly every staminate and staminate hermaphrodite plant may have led to a shift in sexual ratio in domestic populations of sinsemilla drug Cannabis. It is commonly observed that these strains tend toward 60% to 80% pistillate plants and a few pistillate hermaphrodites are not uncommon in these populations.

However, a cross can be made which will produce nearly all pistillate or staminate individuals. If the proper pistillate hermaphrodite plant is selected as the pollen-parent and a pure pistillate plant is selected as the seed-parent it is possible to produce an F1, and subsequent generations, of nearly all pistillate offspring. The proper pistillate hermaphrodite pollen-parent is one which has grown as a pure pistillate plant and at the end of the sea son, or under artificial environmental stress, begins to develop a very few staminate flowers. If pollen from these few staminate flowers forming on a pistillate plant is applied to a pure pistillate seed parent, the resulting F1 generation should be almost all pistillate with only a few pistillate hermaphrodites. This will also be the case if the selected pistillate hermaphrodite pollen source is selfed and bears its own seeds. Remember that a selfed hermaphrodite gives rise to more hermaphrodites, but a selfed pistillate plant that has given rise to a limited number of staminate flowers in response to environmental stresses should give rise to nearly all pistillate offspring. The F1 offspring may have a slight tendency to produce a few staminate flowers under further environmental stress and these are used to produce F2 seed. A monoecious strain produces 95+% plants with many pistillate and staminate flowers, but a dioecious strain produces 95+% pure pistillate or staminate plants. A plant from a dioecious strain with a few inter sexual flowers is a pistillate or staminate hermaphrodite. Therefore, the difference between monoecism and her maphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment.

Crosses may also be performed to produce nearly all staminate offspring. This is accomplished by crossing a pure staminate plant with a staminate plant that has produced a few pistillate flowers due to environmental stress, or selfing the latter plant. It is readily apparent that in the wild this is not a likely possibility. Very few staminate plants live long enough to produce pistillate flowers, and when this does happen the number of seeds produced is limited to the few pistillate flowers that occur. In the case of a pistillate hermaphrodite, it may produce only a few staminate flowers, but each of these may produce thou sands of pollen grains, any one of which may fertilize one of the plentiful pistillate flowers, producing a seed. This is another reason that natural Cannabis populations tend toward predominantly pistillate and pistillate hermaphrodite plants. Artificial hermaphrodites can be produced by hormone sprays, mutilation, and altered light cycles. These should prove most useful for fixing traits and sexual type.

Drug strains are selected for strong dioecious tendencies. Some breeders select strains with a sex ratio more nearly approaching one than a strain with a high pistillate sex ratio. They believe this reduces the chances of pistillate plants turning hermaphrodite later in the season.
heres that link for this which seems more based on McPhee and Schaffners research
http://www.herb.com/gen2.html

 

[johnursery]

just want to be clear my personal opinion on the matter is that hermi plants shouldnt be used in breeding and that using herms to produce female seeds through successive generations is a bad breeding technique when colodial silver can be used and still maintain the stability of sex in the plants, but i thought this was interesting

 

[Seamaiden]

Very interesting, thank you.

 

[Sunbiz1]

TY John, good read.

 

[redman420]

good info johnursery thanks

 

[Sunbiz1]

Good morning all,

I just wanted to post a few pic updates. The first being 5 weeks in while the second I just flipped a week ago. I don't see any balls on plant 2, but the changes occurring are somewhat different than plant 1 had after a week in the closet. This second plant is almost 5' high, was just transplanted into a 5 gal 3 weeks ago.

http://i1133.invalid.com/albums/m596/sunbiz1/001-1.jpg

http://i1133.invalid.com/albums/m596/sunbiz1/005.jpg

Looks like I need to re-take pic 2 cuz it's too dark.

 

[Sunbiz1]

Edit

 

[Capulator]

I know that taking cuttings from female plants when they are around 2 weeks flower, produces females with an assload of braches and thus an assload of tops, since you get a new brach on each bud site. Word to that seamaiden..

Grow the seeds out, and I am positive you will answer your own question. You may even get the next OG kush, la con, or NYCD...

I will say this: Reverse works, but not really. You will thinks it is working, and then there will be a hidden banana or two that will F word your crop. I have used it for a year. It keeps hermies down, but it does not eliminate. Therefore, it is somewhat pointless.

Then again, if you dont care about seeds.... who cares right? Personally, I hate seeded buds, unless its intentional.

 

[Sunbiz1]

I know that taking cuttings from female plants when they are around 2 weeks flower, produces females with an assload of braches and thus an assload of tops, since you get a new brach on each bud site. Word to that seamaiden..

Grow the seeds out, and I am positive you will answer your own question. You may even get the next OG kush, la con, or NYCD...

I will say this: Reverse works, but not really. You will thinks it is working, and then there will be a hidden banana or two that will F word your crop. I have used it for a year. It keeps hermies down, but it does not eliminate. Therefore, it is somewhat pointless.

Then again, if you dont care about seeds.... who cares right? Personally, I hate seeded buds, unless its intentional.

Thanks for the heads up on reverse, only I don't think I'll be needing it for a while. The reason being is b/c I'm seeing no tendencies for these plants to hermie. Plant number 2 is a straight-up male, and I just pulled an in-the ground one at a site that was straight male as well. So much for the theory that a hermie mom gives female seed. Ugg, I've thrown out dozens of plants in my career but I always feel bad when I have to do it...bye bye plant 2...*plays violin*.

Again, thanks for the input.

J

 

[Sunbiz1]

With enough patience, and plenty of diverse genetic sources, the possibilities of what you can accomplish are extraordinary.

I'd love to explore the world to find the perfect terroir for cannabis. Something near the equator, not too humid, at a fairly high elevation, with just the right soil. You could toss out a handful of bagseed at a place like that, and within a few generations miraculous things would occur.

Replicating such an environment indoors is expensive, and a terrible hassle...

Any trait can be culled, controlled, manipulated, or enhanced with time and careful forethought.

Hence the problem w/growing some of the original Jamaican strains etc, they simply don't do well nor produce the desired characteristics when removed from their native habitats.

 

[Sunbiz1]

good work bro
its a labour of love these longflower intersex wonders

the lambsbread,panamared,colombian red i just did were intersex a bit all the original beans were female only male female was the colombian gold

you

are so right that its quite a chore to get em to approximate their original glory..

but i still prefer em over indicas

My experiment has been more productive than most on this forum...:banana1sv6:

 

[billzbudz]

So glad I found this thread, I have a outdoor female I've been debating whether or not to harvest at9and a half weeks, I just noticed she's starting to produce seeds in a few bigger buds, should I harvest now,and will it still be pretty potent?

 

[lino]

Sea Maid nailed it, for the most part..... Caps got some good points. But dont forget the offspring, F2- thats where Sea is spot on in that your new gene pool could now be carrying the Hermy, and in this case were referring to gay as this plants particulars in changing sex speculated by head lights, could change or whatever induced hermy . This can influence the MeGI gene permanently, 3rd leg of the MeGI , especially in the offspring.

In this case the MeGI gene 2nd leg would have outside influences to determine the gender. But dont forget the 3rd leg of the MeGI if it get tripped your plants go from transgender to transsexual, meaning that now the punnet chart can be used to calculate hermaphrodite percentage %. So if you breed yourself into a null homozygous null, nullizygous situation or worse yet you get a hemizygote, 3rd leg of the MeGI gay hermy gene turned to "On", well, somebody going to have a bad seeded crop if there not watching closely who the daddy is.

IMO,
When given the plans to a backyard nuclear reactor let the experts build it. Same goes for hermies, your going to blow up a garden. I think thats what Maid was saying, but if not, thats what I'm saying.

Maid also addressed organics, FOLKS , not only is breeding hermies unhealthy and not organic either, so is consuming them very unhealthy. THIS IS BOUT AS GMO AS WE CAN FIND in our produce. Personally, Id rather consume a Round up protected plant than a GMO transgender,,, direct GMO into our systems... But Cap rite, these now days- herms sure taste good....

 

[lino]

If you're a Pro seed breeder note , Colo Dept of Health is ripping Organic labeled cannabis products off the shelves as we type. Seed labeling has Fed mandates and as well most states have and AG dept seed labeling rules also as well. Seed breeders will have to follow these guide lines in colo soon. B careful what you label organic and let see what the Dept of Health and AG dept say bout hermy seed genes in cannabis. Your hermies may not be distribute on the legal market, I could be wrong, well see how this hermy seed production is interpolated by the powers..

At minimum: hermies will not be Organic, that we know. But lets see what the AG dept says soon.

 

[420 lyfePpP]

I have harvested seeds from a female plant that I did controlled light poisoning. I did get some bomb flower fr0om those seeds . the strains I did harvest from a strain that can hermie under stress. as a lot .
(blueberry pheno) cant speak on outdoor growin . wish you the best peace and good vibes.
420 lyfePpP