Hid Vs Led - Best Thing I Have Ever Seen

Dirtbag · Mar 6, 2019

DapperDon said:
Can you share what you think of as the biggest difference between HID and CMH?

CMH is HID, it's basically evolved Metal Halide technology. I quite like CMH for smaller setups like big tents and small rooms. For large rooms though I really prefer 600 or 1000w HPS for flower.

Where I do think the LED technology shines though is in small tents etc, where heat is a concern. I suppose part of my love for HID comes from the perspective I'm looking at it from. Usually larger rooms.

But even then, I still use 2x1000w HPS in my 8x8' which I consider to be a fairly small room.

DapperDon · Mar 6, 2019

Dirtbag said:
CMH is HID, it's basically evolved Metal Halide technology. I quite like CMH for smaller setups like big tents and small rooms. For large rooms though I really prefer 600 or 1000w HPS for flower.

Where I do think the LED technology shines though is in small tents etc, where heat is a concern. I suppose part of my love for HID comes from the perspective I'm looking at it from. Usually larger rooms.

But even then, I still use 2x1000w HPS in my 8x8' which I consider to be a fairly small room.

And your thoughts on what would fit well in a 2 Gorilla 5x5 with 9ft extensions? One for flower and one for veg.

Dirtbag · Mar 6, 2019

DapperDon said:
And your thoughts on what would fit well in a 2 Gorilla 5x5 with 9ft extensions? One for flower and one for veg.

Man, there is so many ways to skin a cat and not many people would do it how I do these days I dont think. Personally, I'd use a 315CMH or 400MH in the veg tent, and I'd put a 600w HPS hung vertical in the flower tent, maybe even a dimmable 1000w, but I think the 600 would be sufficient.

Again, that's just the hardware I'm familiar with. I really dont know squat about LED but I suspect that might not be a bad option either. To be honest, Tent growing and LEDs are my least favourite subjects lol. I know FA about it.

DapperDon · Mar 6, 2019

Dirtbag said:
Man, there is so many ways to skin a cat and not many people would do it how I do these days I dont think. Personally, I'd use a 315CMH or 400MH in the veg tent, and I'd put a 600w HPS hung vertical in the flower tent, maybe even a dimmable 1000w, but I think the 600 would be sufficient.

Again, that's just the hardware I'm familiar with. I really dont know squat about LED but I suspect that might not be a bad option either. To be honest, Tent growing and LEDs are my least favourite subjects lol. I know FA about it.

You just caught my curiosity on the subject when you brought up the fine point of rock hard frosted buds. I have not seen the Jesus LED yet that can perform that miracle and has been what's prevented me from making the switch. I will say that the person that brought up the Gavita 1650e has gotten my attention on that. I have the Gavita 750 Flex and it has done me well under those conditions but the power bill is getting up there ya know?

JWM2 · Mar 6, 2019

Part of growing rock hard nugs is having a strain that produces rock hard nugs. Some strains won’t no matter how hard you try.

DapperDon · Mar 6, 2019

JWM2 said:
Part of growing rock hard nugs is having a strain that produces rock hard nugs. Some strains won’t no matter how hard you try.

Oh I agree. However I have seen those same genetics turn into cotton balls under LED's.

Dirtbag · Mar 6, 2019

JWM2 said:
Part of growing rock hard nugs is having a strain that produces rock hard nugs. Some strains won’t no matter how hard you try.

Yep, as well as environment besides lighting. Hotter rooms grow more fluffy. But I will say 80% of the strains I've grown turn out quite tight. only the pure long flowering Sativas tended to grow fluffy for me.

JWM2 · Mar 6, 2019

I find only the bud sites that don’t get enough light suffer from that. But it’s the same way with any light source that doesn’t penetrate all the way through. The trick is keeping the majority of the bud sites (canopy) in the right intensity zone for the given light.

MidwestToker · Mar 7, 2019

DapperDon said:
Oh I agree. However I have seen those same genetics turn into cotton balls under LED's.

That depends on the quality of the LED's and the growers skill as I have found that my bud density greater than that of runs under 750 watts of DE HPS, not to mention the 5 days faster finish time. I'll easily harvest a kilo of fine herb from my modest 530 watts of lighting.

Day 46 of flower, still waiting for the swell.

JWM2 · Mar 7, 2019

I’ve seen lots of pics of commercial grows on Instagram where they have the lights hung way too high. Even on HLGs Instagram feed they show clients with their lights 3-4’ above the canopy. Imo that’s a recipe for loose airy buds.

As shown in the pic above the sweet spot is 1-3’ from the fixture for most quantum lighting. Cobs are another story. But for quantum’s the sweet spot must be correctly utilized to get optimal results. As you move away from the leds the intensity drops off quickly. So it’s imparitive to stay within the sweet spot as much as possible.

I don’t even get why someone would hang a quantum board that far from their canopy. The whole reason quantum’s are more efficient is because they can be hung closer to the plant and waste less energy by doing so. By hanging the fixtures so high they are losing the advantage and might as well go back to HID to get better results. Imo it’s a mixture of old school growers still adjusting to new school technology. But that’s my opinion.

OldManRiver · Mar 7, 2019

JWM2 said:
I don’t even get why someone would hang a quantum board that far from their canopy. The whole reason quantum’s are more efficient is because they can be hung closer to the plant and waste less energy by doing so. By hanging the fixtures so high they are losing the advantage and might as well go back to HID to get better results. Imo it’s a mixture of old school growers still adjusting to new school technology. But that’s my opinion.

From the original video, and physics, the reason one would hang a light, any light, further from a canopy is that it reduces the differential in light strength between the top of the plant and lower in the canopy. Because of the inverse square behavior of light strength, if the top of a plant is 1 foot from the light source, and the bottom of the plant is two feet further, the strength of the light at the bottom of the plant is 1/9th that of what the top receives. If the top of the plant is 2 feet from the light, and the bottom is 2 feet lower, the bottom receives 1/4 of the strength. If the light is 3 feet from the top, the bottom would receive (reaches for calculator) about 36% of the light. So its a light gradient thang.

As to bud hardness, I have never gotten higher from bud hardness. In my considerably less than humble opinion, this is a cosmetic characteristic that the commercial market currently values that is absolutely unrelated to what I, as a smoker and personal use grower, care about. I hate smoking rock hard buds - they don't burn as cleanly. So, I, for my personal plans, don't manage towards this. But that's just my thing.

MIMedGrower · Mar 7, 2019

When there are enough lamps in the room properly spaced hanging them high more fully saturates the room with light from more angles.

With few lights distance becomes more important and so does plant structure and arrangement.

Thats why light movers are effective. More angles of light covers more of the plants.

FutureGrower · Mar 7, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
When there are enough lamps in the room properly spaced hanging them high more fully saturates the room with light from more angles.

With few lights distance becomes more important and so does plant structure and arrangement.

Thats why light movers are effective. More angles of light covers more of the plants.

Light rails or movers are weird to me. With LED you can "just" add more diodes and lower amperage and cover it with psychical light and probably save a good penny on electrical that might take a few years to pay for the investment into LEDs. Nothing is perfect and spending up front money when theres tons of de hps units used for not very much at all is tough for some people. The lack of UV ligbt seems to be a issue in peoples opinions too but you can add uv really cheap. Long way of saying theres no wrong ways in my opinion

MIMedGrower · Mar 7, 2019

FutureGrower said:
Light rails or movers are weird to me. With LED you can "just" add more diodes and lower amperage and cover it with psychical light and probably save a good penny on electrical that might take a few years to pay for the investment into LEDs. Nothing is perfect and spending up front money when theres tons of de hps units used for not very much at all is tough for some people. The lack of UV ligbt seems to be a issue in peoples opinions too but you can add uv really cheap. Long way of saying theres no wrong ways in my opinion

Best tool for the job and budget is how i look at it.

Kot · Mar 7, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
When there are enough lamps in the room properly spaced hanging them high more fully saturates the room with light from more angles.

With few lights distance becomes more important and so does plant structure and arrangement.

Thats why light movers are effective. More angles of light covers more of the plants.

I always wondered why the comecrial growers put their lights so far from the plants. The only answer I could find is that because there is so many lights the needed PARs are gathered. Then I watched this video

MIMedGrower · Mar 7, 2019

Kot said:
I always wondered why the comecrial growers put their lights so far from the plants. The only answer I could find is that because there is so many lights the needed PARs are gathered. Then I watched this video

Great video! I always like his stuff. I did forget to mention heat dissipation in my comment. Have seen commercial growers keep raising all the lights in their rooms as summer progresses but i did not know how that would hurt quality and yield back then.

I use 2 6” glass sealed air cooled blockbusters in my flower room. I have thought about those adjust a wings as a better solution for a while. I am afraid i will need even more ventilation power.

With the intense downward footprint blockbusters I tend to move the plants down and away from the lamp during ripening to keep them happy and protect trichome development.

They just cant take as much toward the end in my opinion.

Oops my lights on phone alarm just rang. Gotta go gardening for a bit.

Lol. My clothes dryer buzzer in the basement just went off too. :-)

OldManRiver · Mar 7, 2019

Kot said:
I always wondered why the comecrial growers put their lights so far from the plants. The only answer I could find is that because there is so many lights the needed PARs are gathered. Then I watched this video

Video won't play for me. What is the finding/conclusion?

MIMedGrower · Mar 7, 2019

OldManRiver said:
Video won't play for me. What is the finding/conclusion?

There is a lot of info on the pros and cons and reasons for all the different lighting and it opens a discussion for how to maximize production.

Nothing definitive but that with lots of light up high the par meter is reading from multiple sources. He thinks that the penetration is an issue and you cant tell from the par meter.

He wants the light closer for flowering plants and shows adjusta wings with the heat blocker as a solution and air cooled reflectors.

I think that there is much benefit to a bot higher overlapped light. My yield per plant went way up when i added a second lamp at the same height.

Kot · Mar 7, 2019

MIMedGrower said:
I think that there is much benefit to a bot higher overlapped light. My yield per plant went way up when i added a second lamp at the same height.

There is definitely benefit in overlapping lights but I doubt you lights are 10 feet away from the conopy like I think I've seen in some commercial growers videos.

MIMedGrower · Mar 7, 2019

Kot said:
There is definitely benefit in overlapping lights but I doubt you lights are 10 feet away from the conopy like I think I've seen in some commercial growers videos.

Of course not. And i have never personally seen a grow do that. Always height adjustable.

And i sure agree about the light lost on the walls.

Hid Vs Led - Best Thing I Have Ever Seen

Hid Vs Led - Best Thing I Have Ever Seen

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Hid Vs Led - Best Thing I Have Ever Seen

Hid Vs Led - Best Thing I Have Ever Seen

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