dextr0
- 1,664
- 163
High plant numbers and proper use of space?
I
Inhale
- 36
- 8
There is too many variables .... 2 grams per watt, with sugar leaf fully intact, or without? Was it trimmed when wet or after dried? Wet weight or dry weight? What time frame are we speaking? 50, 55, 60, 70, or 80 day strains? And again, are we going for prized colas, or small buds? (If you have a 2lb cola, send the pics my way!!)
I can easily throw moms that have vegged for 8 months with large 6' diameter canopies into flower and get 1.5-2GPW, all organic in soil.
Strain variations and personal tastes can set your grow apart from the next growers. For instance, your phenotypes may play a significant roll I have found in the yields. Some phenotypes are not as special but yield more, and then there are our prizes plants that sit and cure as if they were wine.
One of my favorite purple plants yields far less than the pink phenotypes but the smell and taste is unremarkable to say the least.
I can easily throw moms that have vegged for 8 months with large 6' diameter canopies into flower and get 1.5-2GPW, all organic in soil.
Strain variations and personal tastes can set your grow apart from the next growers. For instance, your phenotypes may play a significant roll I have found in the yields. Some phenotypes are not as special but yield more, and then there are our prizes plants that sit and cure as if they were wine.
One of my favorite purple plants yields far less than the pink phenotypes but the smell and taste is unremarkable to say the least.
D
Don007206
- 90
- 18
I have never seen 2 gpw ever I think it's posable but if your a noob .7 grams per watt is grate he'll I know we all want to hit a homer out the gate but you should see that as a homer besides training don't mess with them all the time that's key in your first grow any thing you want to try weight 3 days then do it because most of the time you will change your mind map out your grow then complete you steeps in proper order stay on your ph and keep your ppm at 3\4 max so you can avoid things you can't diagnose take a few plants out of your grow to work with, top some fim some then you can first hand see the results of different growing tec's good luck
WalterWhiteFire
- 1,458
- 263
Lots of light, CO2, knowing how to maximize your nutes!!!! And absolutely all of your free time.
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
It's all about the weakest link in the chain. You can do everything right- except, for example, nutes- and you're dead in the water. Is your room creating and maintaining the proper environment? Are the nutes and additives doing their job? Do you have adequate lighting over the entire canopy? How well managed IS that canopy? Integrated pest management and prevention in place?
Strain choices are a huge influence. Indicas don't grow as fast, so they either need more veg time or more numbers. On the other hand, they will finish fast, allowing you to lock n load another crop much more quickly than a pure sativa. We all know some strains are beasters- they crank the pounds, but the quality isn't primo. Lots of tradeoffs, and lots of ways to game this statistic.
This is a lot easier to do in small spaces than in big ones, for many reasons, many of which boil down to time and the ability to keep whatever square footage of canopy you're running properly under control.
No one has all the answers- and different growing styles reveal that this goal isn't necessarily reached by one set of techniques alone. Vertical growing with bare bulbs is a different mix of inputs than running sealed and vented hoods over a flat canopy.
A big question is, what is the gram per watt of lighting NOT counting? Pumps, timers, fans, controllers and Climate control, all of which can easily add up to a big fraction of the wattage of the lights themselves! How about the real estate factor? Does running a big room with less light make more sense when trying to hit the magic numbers than smaller spaces loaded with light?
For that matter, what about the lighting itself? HID makes big numbers, but eats the juice. Lots of smaller ones give up penetration for good distribution. LED is finally coming into its own, and represent a huge potential advantage when shooting for high g/w numbers. Then there are the dark horses coming up on the outside of the tech envelope, like induction and plasma lighting.
I think the guy who brought up gram per watt over time was onto something important- different setups often run different wattage for different stages, and all needs to be accounted for in any final analysis.
How does this stat- or any meaningful analysis of yield vs. input- account for differences in product quality?
The more you look at any one statistic, the less sense it makes to try to build a grow to beat it. It's about balance, and yes, personal preference.
Here's a whole new monkey wrench; what if you're trying to invent and design gear to help farmers wanting to improve this statistic? What might you come up with?
I am doing just that, and I gave up on simple grams per watt long ago, exactly because it is so easy to manipulate. I came up with a different stat, one that breaks all the above variables- and any others I may have forgotten- down into COST of inputs, and then value the quality and quantity of the yield in VALUE. Now, I can drive those two numbers through any growing situation I want, and they still mean the same: VALUE/COST=EFFICIENCY.
Now there is a statistic worth shooting for! This is the only way you can finally account for every design choice, every variable and the cost of every input- and even costs that grow over time, so as to account for the effects of time. What you get out of this equation is a valuable, robust and flexible figure, because it sets the floor of unit cost, that is, what you have to get for each unit of product you sell in order to break even. When you have a firm unit cost, you now have a yardstick you can use to compare different styles of growing on a level playing field.
Why is this important? Because the price of product is falling, and smart growers will bet their setups that it will continue to. Those who produce more efficiently get to earn more money on every gram they sell, which allows them to outcompete those who don't.
/END: Economics lesson
Strain choices are a huge influence. Indicas don't grow as fast, so they either need more veg time or more numbers. On the other hand, they will finish fast, allowing you to lock n load another crop much more quickly than a pure sativa. We all know some strains are beasters- they crank the pounds, but the quality isn't primo. Lots of tradeoffs, and lots of ways to game this statistic.
This is a lot easier to do in small spaces than in big ones, for many reasons, many of which boil down to time and the ability to keep whatever square footage of canopy you're running properly under control.
No one has all the answers- and different growing styles reveal that this goal isn't necessarily reached by one set of techniques alone. Vertical growing with bare bulbs is a different mix of inputs than running sealed and vented hoods over a flat canopy.
A big question is, what is the gram per watt of lighting NOT counting? Pumps, timers, fans, controllers and Climate control, all of which can easily add up to a big fraction of the wattage of the lights themselves! How about the real estate factor? Does running a big room with less light make more sense when trying to hit the magic numbers than smaller spaces loaded with light?
For that matter, what about the lighting itself? HID makes big numbers, but eats the juice. Lots of smaller ones give up penetration for good distribution. LED is finally coming into its own, and represent a huge potential advantage when shooting for high g/w numbers. Then there are the dark horses coming up on the outside of the tech envelope, like induction and plasma lighting.
I think the guy who brought up gram per watt over time was onto something important- different setups often run different wattage for different stages, and all needs to be accounted for in any final analysis.
How does this stat- or any meaningful analysis of yield vs. input- account for differences in product quality?
The more you look at any one statistic, the less sense it makes to try to build a grow to beat it. It's about balance, and yes, personal preference.
Here's a whole new monkey wrench; what if you're trying to invent and design gear to help farmers wanting to improve this statistic? What might you come up with?
I am doing just that, and I gave up on simple grams per watt long ago, exactly because it is so easy to manipulate. I came up with a different stat, one that breaks all the above variables- and any others I may have forgotten- down into COST of inputs, and then value the quality and quantity of the yield in VALUE. Now, I can drive those two numbers through any growing situation I want, and they still mean the same: VALUE/COST=EFFICIENCY.
Now there is a statistic worth shooting for! This is the only way you can finally account for every design choice, every variable and the cost of every input- and even costs that grow over time, so as to account for the effects of time. What you get out of this equation is a valuable, robust and flexible figure, because it sets the floor of unit cost, that is, what you have to get for each unit of product you sell in order to break even. When you have a firm unit cost, you now have a yardstick you can use to compare different styles of growing on a level playing field.
Why is this important? Because the price of product is falling, and smart growers will bet their setups that it will continue to. Those who produce more efficiently get to earn more money on every gram they sell, which allows them to outcompete those who don't.
/END: Economics lesson
K
kushtrees
- 591
- 63
I love ur posts ttystikk, very Fun to read.
A big part of working out yield for many people, mostly med growers, is plant count.
If your don't care about it u can get great numbers from a well managed SOG wih short turn around, very efficient. I know a guy who gets 3lbs off 2 600w every 2 months like clock work he also runs 120 or so plants in a 4x8 table
I can't run that many plants cuz I like to stay within my county limits so I do trees. With tress unless you are doing rdwc or have a separate veg room it's harder to reach peak efficiency, you never see commercial green houses do any sort of tree, just huge SOGs, though tomatoes are a lil different there are some very old hydro tomato plants out there that are huge
GPW is a nice standard if you want a very skewed idea of what you put in, ttystikk is spot on with value and cost, there's just so much more to a grow than wattage
A big part of working out yield for many people, mostly med growers, is plant count.
If your don't care about it u can get great numbers from a well managed SOG wih short turn around, very efficient. I know a guy who gets 3lbs off 2 600w every 2 months like clock work he also runs 120 or so plants in a 4x8 table
I can't run that many plants cuz I like to stay within my county limits so I do trees. With tress unless you are doing rdwc or have a separate veg room it's harder to reach peak efficiency, you never see commercial green houses do any sort of tree, just huge SOGs, though tomatoes are a lil different there are some very old hydro tomato plants out there that are huge
GPW is a nice standard if you want a very skewed idea of what you put in, ttystikk is spot on with value and cost, there's just so much more to a grow than wattage
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
Thank you, your kind words mean a lot to me!
SOG was- and remains- an effective strategy to boost efficiency. On the other hand, it does carry its risks with LEO. Tough to argue efficiency with your cellie!
Trees is a great strategy too, and vegetative time can be at least partially offset by running a separate dedicated space for it and then transferring only when you're ready to flower. This way, the input costs during veg aren't as high, helping boost efficiency.
I used to work in a hydro tomato greenhouse. Their efficiency breakover for tomato crops was about two years; up 'til then, the plants continue to produce well so it doesn't make sense to replace them and wait for the new crop to come on stream. Beyond that point, the plants' stems are so long they have trouble transporting the nutes all the way to the growing tips, and vigor wanes along with production. Remember that most greenhouse tomatoes are 'indeterminant' varieties; you break off the growing tip and the plant is finished- but the determinate varieties (bush types) only really give one good crop before they're done.
I think grams per watt is an easy to grasp pseudostatistic; it's quick, it's understandable and it lends itself well to bragging rights- but once closely investigated it's woefully lacking in substance. Hence, an experienced grower won't put much stock in it and will continue to work towards higher overall efficiency.
R
recreationaluse
- 63
- 8
to sum it up. getting a g/watt dry is hard enough. THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE AND SIMPLEST WAY TO GET THIS OR MORE IS VERTCAL GROWING. I am running a strain I know in a homemade cheap system (soil not hydro) I made for about $230 (price doesnt include equipment, nutes, etc, already had that but $130 went to a grow light tube, other $100 on shelving). I am running a 600 watt with 36 clones I know will each make at least 1 Oz. dry, and from what I know about lighting, reflectors, inverse square laws, etc. I expect the same yield if not better. will be starting a thread very soon. GOOD LUCK
R
recreationaluse
- 63
- 8
I can not stress enough only downfall I have recently discovered in regards to vertical growing is space. You MAY loose a lot of it
jyip
- 807
- 93
it does not change if you stand on one foot facinga strong northerly wind, and it must be strong or it won't work,,,,,
jyip
- 807
- 93
jyip
- 807
- 93
aint that the truth!
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
We all fell down as kids- a lot- until we got the hang of the balance needed to walk. It's no different with indoor gardening; walk some, then try running, and don't be surprised when you fall flat on your face! After all, experience comes from making mistakes, and knowlege comes from learning from those mistakes. Wisdom is when you don't make the same mistakes over and over...
jyip
- 807
- 93
sounds a a bit like Kung Fu, david carridine's character fromthe 70's tv series,,cool show, "when you can snatch the feminized seeds from my hand, only then can you leave my son" hehe,,,,i'm gonna go hang in the closet forawhile,,hehe
ttystikk
- 6,892
- 313
Bruce Lee originally pitched the idea for the series, then got passed over in favor of Carradine. I always wonder what that series might have been like with Him in it!
Grasshopper only ready when he stealthwalk down the aisle of truth and no feminized seed sticks to his feet... o_O
Grasshopper only ready when he stealthwalk down the aisle of truth and no feminized seed sticks to his feet... o_O
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