how important is a RO for hydro??

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St3ve

St3ve

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I'm with you lex.. I used RO for years until I really started thinking about the waste (and the water/sewage bill) so I experimented with tap. There was no difference in taste of yield. In fact, my record yield was with tap. For me.. the only downside to tap is the buffers they put in it for pH. I have to use a lot more down and it always creeps back up.
 
S

sk2004

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For me, ro helped a lot. Not chasing random deficiencies resulting in sick plants. Think the benefit depends on your water supply but here the difference was noticable quickly. It is kinda nice weighing out nutrients, mixing with ro and if the pH is off by more that a decimal know it's time to calibrate the pH meter.
 
Cat Jockey

Cat Jockey

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Let's start with your last statement:

Some nute companies "recommend" RO because of the high micronutrient content in some peoples tap will cause a toxicity when used with there high micronutrient products, but that does not mean it outperform tap water.

What, you just looking to argue about semantics here? Why the hell are they recommending it? You even said it. Tap can cause a toxicity, causing tap water to perform worse. Not quite sure what your hang up here is. Look at what you just said dude. You just flat out said that is recommended because TAP WATER WILL FUCK UP YOUR MIX, causing nute toxicities (as well as lock outs).

That means RO will outperform tap, now doesn't it? Well, it does unless you want to get into some silly semantical argument. Have fun with that, if that is yo thang.

Before I get to some scientificy type stuff, I'll tell you that I would have to sit downn to figure the exact numbers, but I have grown over 60 strains of weed. I have had more than one 10,000W mother room holding well over 40 strains at any one time. I have also run 24 different strains, at one time, on a single RDWC system. I have used dirt, E&F, NFT, RDWC and have used both tap and RO water, as well as various nutrient regimes.

I personally have seen a lot of Ca/Mg issues, both lockouts and toxicities, in my gardens and others. And they usually occurred with tap water. And the science shows us this should be of no surprise. The only time they ever occurred using RO is when I was running multiple strains, including heavy indicas and heavy sativas on the same res. But, YMMV.

RO water will always outperform tap, thats not true. Some people have stuff in there tap thats not good, but the majority is just fine to drink and grow with so how is RO always better??

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. If you have years of experience growing, years of study concerning plants and plenty of experimentation on top of that, you KNOW what the ppm levels of each macro/micro should be for both your particular strain and grow room. With tap water, you cannot achieve the PRECISE levels you want. There is the issue of alkalinity as well, which is not the same as pH. I'll get to alkalinity in a minute, but first a couple things in most tap water that you do NOT want to give your plants.

From one o' dem PhD fellas:


Fluoride (F) and chlorine (Cl2) are commonly added to municipal water at concentrations up to 4 ppm and can cause problems growing crops. Generally, high levels (above 1 ppm) of fluoride and chlorine can cause damage to the foliage (especially at the tip) and the flowers.




1 ppm is enough to cause a problem - that ain't very much, is it?

Don't be fuggin' up them flowers now, that is what we are after, after all, Sweet Lady Jane Flowers. I know you said you let the water stand. This is NOT as effective as some people think. It depends upon many, many factors. The first and most important of which is the source of the chlorine. I think most water treatment plants today are using chloramine as the source, as it is the trend. Chloramine is a combination of chlorine and ammonia. Chloramine will NOT evaporate out of water, nor does it have the 'chlorine' smell, so just because you can't smell chlorine, doesn't mean there is no chloramine in your water. Same thing for fluoride. It will NOT evaporate out of water either. CL2 is a gas at room temperature. Chloramine is not.

The only way to remove chloramine from your tap water is to actually add free chlorine to it so it begins to disassociate the chloramine molecule so the chlorine and ammonia can evaporate out, boil it (like in the distillation process) or use a carbon filter or membrane filter who's pores are smaller than the chloramine molecule on it.

A carbon and membrane filter like you find in RO units. RO units kick ass at removing chloramine. And good RO filter removes fluoride as well.

So, I could stop here, couldn't I? I've got a PhD cat telling you that chlorine and fluoride is TOXIC to plants. RO filters remove this threat, instantly making RO BETTER for growing. Always. Always. Always. A solution that does NOT contain molecules toxic to the plant will always outperform a solution that does, like tap water. But, there are more reasons, so I won't stop.

As side note, fluoride is NOT okay to drink. It is poison. Hitler and Stalin added F to the water supply because it subdued and made the prisoners more passive. So, your assertion that the majority of tap water is 'just fine' is not accurate. For either plants or humans.

The biggest contributor to tap water ppm is Ca & Mg. "Great! Mj needs Ca and Mg", you say. But not so fast. The calcium and magnesium in your tap comes in the form of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. These two molecules are too large for the roots to utilize. Over time, they will break down, but until they do, not only are your plants not uptaking the calcium/magnesium carbonate, but those carbonates are locking out other nutrients, like K.

Calcium carbonate is CaCO3. It is also not very soluble in water, but is what usually makes up the ppm and need an acidic solution to disassociate. So, if your tap pH is above 7.0, the Ca in the tap in the form of CaCO3 is not usable by the plant. Before your plant can uptake Ca, the CaCO3 molecule must be broken down so you have a Ca2+ ion and CO3-. And your solution needs to be slightly acidic for this to happen. This takes time. This time spent is less impactful in dirt than hydro. To help break down CaCO3 in a hydro res, you need to add chelating agents like fulvic and humic acids and bennies.

This takes time. And it does take some energy from the plant. Time and energy better spent on growing than making Ca2+ available from a CaCO3 molecule.

So, before I get to far into it, the CaCO3 is not a molecule your roots can absorb, it needs Ca2+ for the exchange to occur. Further, the CaCO3 in your tap will inhibit the uptake (lockout) other nutrients while in that form. Same for magnesium carbonate. Yet that is the Ca you get in most tap water, CaCO3. Ca that needs further manipulation before it is ready for uptake.

As far as alkalinity, well, you get it plenty with tap water. Alkalinity affects how much acid you need to add to drop the pH. Tap water buffers really well, meaning you need to add more pH down then you want to. pH adjusters have cons as well as pros. The pro is getting in the pH range you want, the cons include things like pH adjusters are not good for your roots, they can easily fuck up a nute solution, they precipitate out nutrients you just put into your solution and they make you r solution more prone to a higher rate of pH drift.

I avoid pH adjusters as much as possible. With tap water, the alkalinity neccesitates that you use more acid than is good for your plants.
 
Dirty White Boy

Dirty White Boy

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Water analysis sheets are available at any city hall. Most big citys send out flyers twice a year with a full analysis down to the ppm.
 
Cat Jockey

Cat Jockey

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Last time I looked into it, I was on a well, so testing was the only option. And, again, just because you know what is in it doesn't change the fact that RO is ALWAYS a better starting point and you will ALWAYS have more flexibility to tailor your nutrient regime to your grow space and genes.

But good info to share for those on city water that want to know ...
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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Holy fuck bro, do you sell RO units at Home Depot or something??? You used Advanced Nutrients (the worst nute company in the World) and Humboldt (makers of products with PGR's) as "experts" that said RO will outperform tap?? I didn't see that anywhere in there quote. They use RO because they make nutrients and they want to control every single ppm that goes into the bottles, it does not mean RO will outperform tap water. I still can't believe you used AN as an "expert"...LOL. I can get a $20 filter that hooks up to my faucet and it takes out all the harmful chemicals, so what if theres a few ppm of calcium or iron, the plants need minerals like that. Oh yeah, and I can draw that conclusion because with tap water I am getting the SAME growth rate as distilled water.

Anyways, I'm not gonna argue with you because you are simply wrong and you will pick apart any little thing I say and still not prove your point. Thats REDUNDANT.
 
Cat Jockey

Cat Jockey

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I still can't believe you used AN as an "expert"...LOL.

I don't and never said I did, but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. Here is a link for you. It is to doubleds nute schedule. I triple dog dare you to go post this sentence in that thread. Tell doubleds he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing because he uses AN. Go on, do it.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/doubleds-nutrient-schedule.14891/

A $20 filter will not do what you claim - that is why it is $20.

Not quite sure why you feel the need to insult me, but since you want to go down that road, I looked at your grow. It is clear to me that you do not know how to properly feed your plants from the pictures. I can take your same genes and grow space and produce more, in both yield and quality. I know this because your pics show me you have stressed your plants from improper feeding, compromising your yield and quality.

Oh yeah, and I can draw that conclusion because with tap water I am getting the SAME growth rate as distilled water.

Ignorance is bliss, eh lex? No, you can't. You think you can, but that is because you have now invested your pride in this thread and would rather swallow blood than that pride and you still have to master the basics of weed farming, like how to properly feed your plants.

They use RO because they make nutrients and they want to control every single ppm that goes into the bottles

Me too. Maybe one day, when your experience and knowledge base reaches the level of myself and other expert growers, you will understand why we do this.

No need to insult people lex. Especially when you yourself are but an amature grower and you are throwing those insults at someone who has grown for years, run more than one XX,XXX W grow-op, has handled as many strains as I have, have grown thousands of plants and has used every system out there (except true aero). Open your mind to learning lex, your plants will thank you for it.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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If you would read my grow instead of just looking at pictures you would of noticed all the stress the "little" plant went through, even though it has a 4 sq.ft. canopy that is flat so all my budsites get equal light and I'm growing in soil, which is alot slower then hydro, something I don't see you doing. So you really think you could of gotten a better looking plant with my space and resources, your fucking dreaming. Oh yeah, I used distilled water for that plant, then look at my younger plants and you see NO discoloration on the leaves and they have been getting tap water. Let me tell you about the stress that "little" plant went through. I had a horrible fungus gnat infestation from FF Ocean Forest soil and I also had my HID light bulb go out and I didn't get a new one until after a week later, so put those 2 in combination together including the fact I went to Florida to visit my family for a week right before I flipped it to 12/12 and it caused my plant a "little" damage. Most people (most likely including yourself) still couldn't get that plant where it is today with everything it went through and using the equipment I have. I just moved up north from Florida and I just started to get my indoor grow together, trust me, it will look better in 1 year then anything you have seen your entire life. Another thing, I had outdoor jungles in FL that you could only dream about, so stop hating because I just started to get my indoor shit together and you've been doing it for many years with little success.

Now you called me a hater and that I insulted you.....HOW????? I was laughing because you said that AN are "experts", thats what I said, I never said you use AN in your growroom, so get the facts straight before you accuse somebody of "demeaning" and "insulting" you because I never did that. Go ahead and make up reasons to talk shit about me because you know damn well anybody can use tap water and get the same results as RO water. It's not that big of a deal and you obviously take shit to the heart when you shouldn't because we are on a fucking cannabis forum. So stop acting like a loser and go post a grow journal if your "so good" like you say you are.

Oh yeah, if your gonna tell me to "post less" and "read more" you might wanna rethink before you type on this forum, because you have 10 of your posts 'liked' with well over 200 posts, obviously your not giving good advice if nobody likes your posts :D LOL you might have better luck at rollitup.com or 1 of those noob sites ;)
 
Cat Jockey

Cat Jockey

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Would you chill the fuck out dude? Likes, huh? I haven't been around here for awhile dude. MOst of those 200 posts are on the old forum platform, sans a like button. Does this mean I won't get a like from you for Christmas this year? Ahhh, shucks.

Go ahead and make up reasons to talk shit about me because you know damn well anybody can use tap water and get the same results as RO water.

What you some kinda mind reader? I know no such thing. In fact, I KNOW the opposite to be true. You won't accept that though.

So stop acting like a loser and go post a grow journal if your "so good" like you say you are.

I don't do grow journals. Not when I am sitting on thousands of plants - I am in a little different league than you with much, much higher stakes. Any idea what mandatory minimum sentences are on the federal level for more than 1,000 plants? I really didn't read that first paragraph as to why you don't know how to properly feed your plants (you can't see it in their leaves, can ya?) - excuses are like opinions which are like ....

But, I do have a few pics from retired gardens I'll share. What the fuck do you think guys like me are doing with mother rooms that big, huh? Dirt, E&F, RWDC & Greenhouse. I don't keep a lot of photographic evidence on my computer. Sorry.

Yea, I'm a real fuckin' noob, huh? Knucklehead.
 
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LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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Would you chill the fuck out dude? Likes, huh? I haven't been around here for awhile dude. MOst of those 200 posts are on the old forum platform, sans a like button. Does this mean I won't get a like from you for Christmas this year? Ahhh, shucks.



What you some kinda mind reader? I know no such thing. In fact, I KNOW the opposite to be true. You won't accept that though.



I don't do grow journals. Not when I am sitting on thousands of plants - I am in a little different league than you with much, much higher stakes. Any idea what mandatory minimum sentences are on the federal level for more than 1,000 plants? I really didn't read that first paragraph as to why you don't know how to properly feed your plants (you can't see it in their leaves, can ya?) - excuses are like opinions which are like ....

But, I do have a few pics from retired gardens I'll share. What the fuck do you think guys like me are doing with mother rooms that big, huh? Dirt, E&F, RWDC & Greenhouse. I don't keep a lot of photographic evidence on my computer. Sorry.

Yea, I'm a real fuckin' noob, huh? Knucklehead.

Your sitting on thousands of plants, yet you have time to go online and talk shit to random people....highly doughtful....LMAO

Oh, would you please tell me what def I have, since you keep bringing it up????<<sarcasm Yet I am having zero problems with my plants as of right now (and I never had a def in the 1st place). So you keep saying how def my plant is (which its not), but even if it was def thats normal for anybody that grows because its impossible to grow for years and years and never have 1 def your entire life. If you did have thousands of plants you wouldn't keep talking about my 1 plant. Your such a bullshitter, you say you don't keep photo's on your cpu because you grow thousands of plants and its illegal, then you show me a bunch of pics of random growrooms that all look different :rolleyes:

Anyways, enjoy trimming your "1,000 plants".
 
Cat Jockey

Cat Jockey

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You can't let this go, can ya? I'm done with ya lex. This thread is about RO water and I gave my opinoins and I baqcked those opinions up with facts instead of an anecdote like, "I don't see any yellowing or anything". People reading this thread can decide for themselves who they want ro listen to and who's opinoin they consider valid. You can doubt all ya want buddy.

Random grow rooms? What, you think I lifted those pictures from some other grow forum? Get real. Nobody on the net has seen those pictures before today, 'cause today is the first day I have shown them. Yup, I have had several. From single light closet grows to XX,XXX W warehouse grows and I have some pictures of them. If you grow for years and years, you don't get def - 'cause ya learned through experience. Those are pictures from three of my grow rooms I have had plus one greenhouse I was brought in on as a consultant by a guy who had a 25 year nursery business and a college degree in horticulture - yet he needed and wanted my advice because he was aware of my knowledge base and product. I have also been contacted by a few disp to give them advice on their large grows, 'cause they knew I could help them - word gets around.

There is over 1,000 plants in that one mother room I showed you. You know that rooted clones are considered plants by the feds, right? I have already shown you 1,000 plants, so doubt all ya want. I don't really care. I don't show off big flower rooms - EVER.

I didn't say your plants were def. I said you do not know how to properly feed them - their leaves show this to be true. I didn't get any more specific than that, and I won't. You are kinda a jackass. Last fuckin' thing I am going to do is help you. You are, after all, the guy kickin' one plant under a 400W who knows it all, aren't ya?

You don't need my help. You keep telling me that I am wrong and you are right, so figure your issues out on your own, Jack.

You are WRONG lex. Deal with it. You just threw too much of your pride out there to take a step back and take a deep breath and rethink the possibility that all of those advantages I mention about RO are true.

I am outta here. Go tend your closet grow son, you need to spend more time figuring out how to do it properly than telling guys like me that I am wrong and the you are the know-it-all right guy...
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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In your 1st paragraph you said that you back up everything with facts....o..k...So when I get the same growth using tap water or distilled water, how is that not a fact?????

It shows how your reasoning is so lopsided, you critisize my grow without any knowledge of the environmental factors or pest issues. You say that my plant is not fed correctly because of the leaves, now you say you never said its def, well if its not fed properly then its obviously def. Stop contradicting yourself and trying to put the spotlight on me because you know anybody can grow the same bud with RO, distilled or tap water, as long as they take the necessary precautions that me and others have stated earlier in this thread.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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RO water is better for plants than tap. The reason is simple chemistry; how could any nutrient company possibly make a product with would work with every possible variation of tap water out there? The obvious answer is that they can't- and trying is a fool's errand, when RO water is so accessible.

The BEST that can be achieved with tap water is to alter your nutrient profile to account for what the tap water already carries- but even then, it often carries essential minerals in forms that are not only difficult for the plants to take up, but also tend to make the problems of nutrient lockout worse.

I've grown in a wide variety of tapwater profiles, and it is always to some extent a crapshoot. Getting lucky is in no way proof that somehow it's always better. The difference between acceptable growing and really great results is attention to detail. RO water is consistent and tapwater isn't. Tapwater even changes its own profile over the course of the year, as seasons and weather patterns change. A water quality report can be a snapshot of water quality and is useful as a starting point, but even city water managers will tell you that of course water quality and makeup constantly changes, for all the reasons myself and others have discussed above.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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...and to continue the point I was making above, water quality can change quickly and drastically depending on what's going on upstream from your town. Case in point; 87,000 acres of burnt forest in the watershed just above my city has quickly, if temporarily, raised the ppm sustantially and altered the pH.

It may seem like a contradiction to what I said above that I don't personally use an RO device, but that decision was made after in-depth investigation into water quality issues here on the Front Range of Colorado. I DO have one, and I'll use it as soon as I notice any significant change in the water here. Currently, the pH runs about 4.5 on a total dissolved solids load of about 56 parts per million, or .05 EC, lol. At this level, running RO is just a waste of time...

The reader will notice, however, that this decision was made on the basis of facts and relevant evidence, not heresay, conjecture or guesswork.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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I got carried away going back and forth with that other guy, but I disagreed with him because he said RO will outperform tap with all other factors constant. So that means if I have 20 clones and 10 on tap with the other 10 on RO then the clones getting RO is gonna yield more and/or have better growth every run?? That is what I didn't believe in the beginning and still don't, but you do make valid points about the inconsistency of tap water. I just don't think RO will outperform tap with all other factors constant if you filter it and dial in your nutes. I never said tap is better but I know RO is better for some people, I just don't believe someone that can filter there water (if needed) and dial-in there nutes with tap are gonna suffer on performance.
 
Dirty White Boy

Dirty White Boy

884
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I got carried away going back and forth with that other guy, but I disagreed with him because he said RO will outperform tap with all other factors constant. So that means if I have 20 clones and 10 on tap with the other 10 on RO then the clones getting RO is gonna yield more and/or have better growth every run?? That is what I didn't believe in the beginning and still don't, but you do make valid points about the inconsistency of tap water. I just don't think RO will outperform tap with all other factors constant if you filter it and dial in your nutes. I never said tap is better but I know RO is better for some people, I just don't believe someone that can filter there water (if needed) and dial-in there nutes with tap are gonna suffer on performance.

FACE PALM!
 
St3ve

St3ve

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lol you guys..

Fighting over RO vs Tap is silly. Tap can work fine depending on where it comes from. I can attest to that because I've been on straight tap now for over two years and my yields and quality are never better. However, thats in one small part of the world.. if I move somewhere else I may be screwed and everything may go to hell.

I still wouldn't use RO tho because of all the waster water. I would use water filters that have no waste.
 
jsclimb

jsclimb

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The general rule with hydro compared to soil is usually if your ppms out of the tap are above 300-350ppm you should probably use a filtration system. Especially if your running a re-circulating system. A small boy would probably work, I would recommend switching the carbon filter that comes with it, with a kdf85 carbon filter. It's a little more expensive but it will remove fluroide, sulfur, irons and most importantly chloramines. I advise this even with the stealth ro system. Chlorine evaporates in 24 hours, chloramines don't, ever. If you have a high content of chloramines in your water your plant will have a harder time taking up all the nutrients. If your ppms are above 350 your going to burning through filters, it's almost not worth it. People who have really bad water may be able to grow quality stuff if they're using soil. With a hydro system not so much. With a filter you can start with close to 0 ppm, which allows you to add those 600 ppm with your base nutrients, not harmful substances that lurk in the water. Some people will use a tall boy or small boy for a prefilter before it runs through they're ro system. This extends the life of your filters, which is key! I use an Ro, yes there's waste water but it gets recirculated back into the citys water system in good time. Your not really wasting the water too much. Oh and dont use water softners they had way to sodium to the water. Salts are no good.
 
B

bundenburg

37
8
Hey I got to straight from a fish tank, it okay to put then in my hydro or do I add nuets
 

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