How long can I save ACT?

[CT Guy]

Buddy,

Just because you don't like my original answer, doesn't make it wrong. If you're not willing to hear the answer from me, then why don't you listen to ITB or Waayne or any of the other people who have posted.

Get a microscope and a DO meter and do a test for yourself if you don't believe me. Or post some data sets from a company making this claim (Vermicrop is the only company I'm aware of that does this).

You're correct that partying in Vegas does not invalidate their products. However, their prices and poor design, combined with their knowledge and behavior when I met them, makes it impossible for me to see them as a serious horticultural company. This is my opinion.

Now if you wish you post something that proves me wrong on ANYTHING I've written regarding the storage of compost teas and refrigeration feel free to do so.

You want other resources? How about contacting Jeff Lowenfels, author of "Teaming with Microbes?" You can reach him and others in the ACT industry through his Yahoo Group at groups.yahoo.com, search for compost_tea. Why not post your question there? Another resource? Email Elaine Ingham of SFI or contact any of their labs (www.soilfoodweb.com). Look for any legitimate company that manufacturers compost tea brewing machines and shows lab testing or microscopy on their products. I can guarantee that none of them recommend refrigeration or a shelf life.

Pretty large chip you've got on your shoulder. Don't know where it came from, but it's unfortunate that it keeps you from learning and improving upon your growing methods based on the knowledge and testing of others.

I'm fully willing to accept when I'm wrong or don't know something. You won't see me posting about EM or bokashi, because I have no experience with it. You say you want to learn from growers, well this is your chance to do so. How about having a little bit more respect for people that take the time to answer your questions, and you might have more success in life.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Buddy,

Just because you don't like my original answer, doesn't make it wrong. If you're not willing to hear the answer from me, then why don't you listen to ITB or Waayne or any of the other people who have posted.

Get a microscope and a DO meter and do a test for yourself if you don't believe me. Or post some data sets from a company making this claim (Vermicrop is the only company I'm aware of that does this).

You're correct that partying in Vegas does not invalidate their products. However, their prices and poor design, combined with their knowledge and behavior when I met them, makes it impossible for me to see them as a serious horticultural company. This is my opinion.

Now if you wish you post something that proves me wrong on ANYTHING I've written regarding the storage of compost teas and refrigeration feel free to do so.

You want other resources? How about contacting Jeff Lowenfels, author of "Teaming with Microbes?" You can reach him and others in the ACT industry through his Yahoo Group at groups.yahoo.com, search for compost_tea. Why not post your question there? Another resource? Email Elaine Ingham of SFI or contact any of their labs (www.soilfoodweb.com). Look for any legitimate company that manufacturers compost tea brewing machines and shows lab testing or microscopy on their products. I can guarantee that none of them recommend refrigeration or a shelf life.

Pretty large chip you've got on your shoulder. Don't know where it came from, but it's unfortunate that it keeps you from learning and improving upon your growing methods based on the knowledge and testing of others.

I'm fully willing to accept when I'm wrong or don't know something. You won't see me posting about EM or bokashi, because I have no experience with it. You say you want to learn from growers, well this is your chance to do so. How about having a little bit more respect for people that take the time to answer your questions, and you might have more success in life.

Did you see that part where I asked you to take this bullshit to private messaging?

I am not gonna get in another pissing match with you in public.

Have you ever scoped tea that had been refrigerated?

Thats all I wanna know...I know its not ideal...but does life wake up after tea has been refrigerated?

I dont understand why this seems to anger you.

Please...you have extensive knowledge. Can you post some data regarding my question? That would be more helpful.

 

[CT Guy]

Did you see that part where I asked you to take this bullshit to private messaging?

I am not gonna get in another pissing match with you in public.

Have you ever scoped tea that had been refrigerated?

Thats all I wanna know...I know its not ideal...but does life wake up after tea has been refrigerated?

I dont understand why this seems to anger you.

Please...you have extensive knowledge. Can you post some data regarding my question? That would be more helpful.

What do you want for data? A picture of some tea in a fridge? :thinking

I gave you a very sound logical basis for why it doesn't work. I explained my experience with dissolved oxygen over time, and also the effect of cold temperature on microbial activity. I have used both a dissolved oxygen meter and a microscope to arrive at these conclusions, which align with others in the ACT industry, based on my own independent reading and research.

Is this the "pissing match" you're referring to?




I'm still waiting for an answer to my last post or for you to contact some other "experts" for information regarding your question.

 

[Capulator]

aeroic bacteria would do best if the tea is used right away. Just because it CAN be refrigerated up to a week doesnt necessarily mean you are gettgin the most bang for your buck that way.

You can always cut back on material to make just a gallon, or even a half gallon so that you dont waste. Its really easy to make... the hardest part about it is waiting for it to be done.

I am going to amend my tea thread to reflect the info here which I do think is valuable and makes sense to me. I had always read that it coudl be refrigerated, and I am sure it can, but I am also sure that some bacteria will die off in the process.

Now, the bacteria will die off no matter what if there is nothing for them to eat, so really you are killing bacteria all the tim ein a hydro setting, where there is no soil that is "breaking down"

Seagreen, as well as my packs are a mix of a shitload of bacteria, but they rarely all gp to work right away when they are applied. some make it and some dont, it depends on their environment and what they have to process.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

What do you want for data? A picture of some tea in a fridge? :thinking



I'm still waiting for an answer to my last post or for you to contact some other "experts" for information regarding your question.

You just wanna fight?

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Seagreen, as well as my packs are a mix of a shitload of bacteria, but they rarely all gp to work right away when they are applied. some make it and some dont, it depends on their environment and what they have to process.

exactly.

Some making it alive is better than none at all.

Thats kinda what I am thinking with refrigerating it...when applying immediately is NOT an option.

Of course immediate application is best...but everybody cant always manage that.

I'm just curious how much life is still kickin after it warms back up.

It seems like this is starting some kinda argument.

I think I will bow out before I get banned again.


Peace

 

[dorjewright]

I read parts 1 & 2 of the article recommended by CTGuy couldn't find a reference to "4 hours" either. I follow the thinking; but reading through threads on act here on the farmer I find recommended brewing times of 12 to 48 hours.
Preferred time at 70 being 12hrs. Sure would like to get some consensus for my own use.

 

[waayne]

hey wayne-when you looked at the scope, did you record or remember how the numbers differed the longer you left it in the fridge.? In other words....After 48 hours, was it beneficial on any level? At what point, in your opinion, would you say the ACT isn't worth giving to your plants at all?

I realize the sooner the better, but sometimes i have leftovers sittin around for a few hours or so and always wonder how beneficial it is?

Humboldt Dr. I was looking at DO levels as well as the consortia
and the DO level dropped by over 100% in a little over an hour
with the assistance of a Biology student I observed the biological
activity diminishing within hours of brewing....

I did not aerate the tea while it was stored in the fridge (though this sounds like a good idea) it was left out of the fridge 1 hour before testing>>this due to the fact I was driving the samples to a facility to be tested

I was interested in producing the highest quality tea possible and from the plates we looked at and the DO levels as it was stored I concluded it was best used a soon as it was brewed

My understanding is that It contains the maximum lifeforce as soon as it's brewed and starts losing this energy quickly.I believe this is directly related to the DO levels dropping off
at a surprising rate after it's brewed.

For maximum benefit I really think it should be used as soon as it's brewed

If I was to store leftover ACT in the future I would aerate it in the fridge to keep the DO level higher, but even then I think you would be best using it within 3-6 hours, after that I think the quality is really on the decline,and the longer it sits the possibility of it going anaerobic really increases...

I feel the ACT still has some benefits after 48 hours of storage but
it is so compromised by this stage it's not comparable to the fresh brewed ACT and is only suitable for my tree's and shrubs,etc.......

These are only my simple observations Humboldt Dr. Other people may have different results...

sweet..thanks wayne!

Two questions...

Did you warm the tea up before you scoped it?

Did you frig the concentrated tea or diluted?


It would be cool to look at them both ways...cold and warm...to see what "wakes up" from the cold dormancy.


Good info guys..thanks!!

Buddy it was allowed to warm up for an hour after it came out of the fridge
I believe it was usually around 65 - 70 degrees

I stored the concentrated ACT in the fridge

Buddy there is a good deal of research that needs to be done regarding ACT storage but from what I observed, if you want the maximum benefit use your ACT as soon as possible after brewing.

Lets try and keep this thread on topic!

Some of us still have a great deal to learn about this subject.......

 

[Capulator]

Humboldt Dr. I was looking at DO levels as well as the consortia
and the DO level dropped by over 100% in a little over an hour
with the assistance of a Biology student I observed the biological
activity diminishing within hours of brewing....

I did not aerate the tea while it was stored in the fridge (though this sounds like a good idea) it was left out of the fridge 1 hour before testing>>this due to the fact I was driving the samples to a facility to be tested

I was interested in producing the highest quality tea possible and from the plates we looked at and the DO levels as it was stored I concluded it was best used a soon as it was brewed

My understanding is that It contains the maximum lifeforce as soon as it's brewed and starts losing this energy quickly.I believe this is directly related to the DO levels dropping off
at a surprising rate after it's brewed.

For maximum benefit I really think it should be used as soon as it's brewed

If I was to store leftover ACT in the future I would aerate it in the fridge to keep the DO level higher, but even then I think you would be best using it within 3-6 hours, after that I think the quality is really on the decline,and the longer it sits the possibility of it going anaerobic really increases...

I feel the ACT still has some benefits after 48 hours of storage but
it is so compromised by this stage it's not comparable to the fresh brewed ACT and is only suitable for my tree's and shrubs,etc.......

These are only my simple observations Humboldt Dr. Other people may have different results...







Buddy it was allowed to warm up for an hour after it came out of the fridge
I believe it was usually around 65 - 70 degrees

I stored the concentrated ACT in the fridge

Buddy there is a good deal of research that needs to be done regarding ACT storage but from what I observed, if you want the maximum benefit use your ACT as soon as possible after brewing.

Lets try and keep this thread on topic!

Some of us still have a great deal to learn about this subject.......

bacteria multiply and evolve fast as fuck.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Buddy it was allowed to warm up for an hour after it came out of the fridge
I believe it was usually around 65 - 70 degrees

I stored the concentrated ACT in the fridge

Buddy there is a good deal of research that needs to be done regarding ACT storage but from what I observed, if you want the maximum benefit use your ACT as soon as possible after brewing.

Lets try and keep this thread on topic!

Some of us still have a great deal to learn about this subject.......

Cool, thanks for sharing your trials. Thats good info.

How did I get off topic?

You are correct, and I am one that has a lot to learn on this subject. This is why I started this thread.


I wanted to learn about refrigerating tea...not get in a fuss.

 

[HumboldtDr]

Thank you Waayne. You answered my ques perfectly.

 

[CT Guy]

exactly.

Some making it alive is better than none at all.

Peace

Not necessarily true, due to the fact that you've created anaerobic conditions in the liquid medium over time as DO levels drop dramatically after removing an O2 source. You could create a fermentation that could be innocuous or even harm your plants.

If you just want to know if there's bacteria alive, then yes there will be, but it probably won't be the same bacteria you had when you threw it in the fridge.

You're missing the point of ACT altogether.

I can see that anything I write is going to be automatically dismissed by you, but I hope others will read it and at least take some of it to heart.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Not necessarily true, due to the fact that you've created anaerobic conditions in the liquid medium over time as DO levels drop dramatically after removing an O2 source. You could create a fermentation that could be innocuous or even harm your plants.

If you just want to know if there's bacteria alive, then yes there will be, but it probably won't be the same bacteria you had when you threw it in the fridge.

You're missing the point of ACT altogether.

I can see that anything I write is going to be automatically dismissed by you, but I hope others will read it and at least take some of it to heart.

I'm not missing the point.

I asked a question. Read my original post.

 

[CT Guy]

It should say 4 hours in that article. If not, it may be in the 1st part of that article (I linked to the 2nd part). That info is based on direct microscopy.

Here's the problem. As you brew longer than 36 hours, darwinism takes over and you get monocultures (survival of the fittest). This is not ideal for ACT, as the whole purpose is to create nutrient cycling (prey and predation with good microbial diversity and concentrations). Over time, you'll end up will all the same morphology of bacteria, flagellates, ciliates, and probably no fungi. The populations will swing dramatically too, as the bacteria overpopulate then the flagellates and ciliates take over as they eat all the bacteria, until the food source is gone.

As far as refrigeration goes, the issue is more about dissolved oxygen. If you take something that you just created that's highly aerobic (ACT) and take away the air pump, which is maintaining dissolved oxygen, the organisms will die and you'll start to grow anaerobic organisms or fermentations. This is NOT what you want with ACT. Hydro shops and companies that recommend this (Vermicrop) do not do adequate research or direct microscopy. They just make claims because it's convenient and makes them money.

@Buddy, you could in theory bring such a tea back, but it would not be worth the time, energy, inputs, and monitoring with a DO meter and microscope to do it properly. Yes, microbes can handle a wide range of temps and dormancy can occur, but the issue with storage and refrigeration is more about DO levels and the fact you've created essentially an unsustainable environment in your tea brewer at 24-36 hours, that's why you have to get it out on your plants ASAP.

Does that help?

Asked and answered on the 1st page. You may want to re-read my post for comprehension this time.

What I did not mention (though is rather obvious) is that you will have some microbes (primarily bacteria/archea, ciliates, and flagellates, not necessarily aerobic). I've commented on their potential efficacy later in your thread though.

I will state one more time. This is NOT ACT or the point of making ACT. You can create a new name for it, but I already gave you advice with what to do with it (use it right away or throw it out).

How about you email one of those other sources for advice that I gave you? You could always ask ITB too since you like his video and he obviously has a microscope as well.

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Asked and answered on the 1st page. You may want to re-read my post for comprehension this time.

What I did not mention (though is rather obvious) is that you will have some microbes (primarily bacteria/archea, ciliates, and flagellates, not necessarily aerobic). I've commented on their potential efficacy later in your thread though.

I will state one more time. This is NOT ACT or the point of making ACT. You can create a new name for it, but I already gave you advice with what to do with it (use it right away or throw it out).

How about you email one of those other sources for advice that I gave you? You could always ask ITB too since you like his video and he obviously has a microscope as well.

Thank you.

 

[CT Guy]

Not trying to pick a fight here, but this is my reason for not taking Vermicrop seriously as botanists or horticulturists.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=290909067597910&set=pt.210102119011939&type=1&theater

 

[Buddy Hemphill]

Sizzle sells steak....lol....

personaly? All I can say is this,...

MIZZ TITZ~~????!!!!!!! I'M BUDDY!!!.....COME AND HOLLA AT YA BOY!!!!!

I have absolutely no problem with a young girl exploiting herself!!!....lol...

(are you really complaing about these ....ummm.....steps?)....:winking0067:

 

[click80]

As far as bacteria are concerned, I don't know about fungi, the only thing that you can count on, if you put your tea in fridge for any length of time, is to consider that that some bacteria, fortunately a lot of the beneficial soil bacteria, produce endospores when conditions become unfavorable for reproduction, like lack of food in a ACT...anyway, it takes a little time, I think like 6 hours and it forms and sheds an Endospore. When conditions are cool for reproducing again then it comes back to life. Some endospores were found in Pyramids and brought out of stasis.

I have been reading a lot of shit online and it's very complicated, but I am mixing small batches to be used immediately. Whatever is leftover I might keep it a day or two in the 'fridge, but it only goes on my moms or on the lawns. I don't feel, from what I have read, and that includes most of Dr Elaine Ingams book (very very smarty pants lady), that you can confidently rely on leftover tea for pathogen protection, or for active pest infestations. I would hate to waste it and I have stored in the fridge but since I have been reading all this stuff, i will try and only brew what I need. Hell, just in the brewing, if you are not careful, you can get all kinds of different results.

http://textbookofbacteriology.net/growth.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endospore