Chronic Monster
- 1,146
- 113
what water pumps do you like :wondering :wondering
what water pumps do you like :wondering :wondering
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PRODUCT
Guest
the honda of DWC or the ferrari???!
I would advise to start with a honda and work your way up
simple dwc systems are cheap and super easy to manage
costs are in the pumps and chillers.
what they need is 65 degree water and constant heavy water rush and oxygen. now find the simple design to do this but start from there
I would advise to start with a honda and work your way up
simple dwc systems are cheap and super easy to manage
costs are in the pumps and chillers.
what they need is 65 degree water and constant heavy water rush and oxygen. now find the simple design to do this but start from there
UCMENOW
- 1,095
- 83
Anyone peeped the new "made in cali" lids? DIY that ;)
Made 1000's of them? Really?
At what point will you stop lying to yourself and in turn misleading others that you even make hydro systems for sale?
Back to addressing reality.
My observation is that there isn't a hydro system on the market that can't be diy'd and save some money. The fact that it's actually a topic up for debate is beyond me. I can make anything on the market and save about 30% doing it, period....no exceptions.
Fact is most of the retail cost of the system is middle man mark up.
1) Company A makes a product, marks it up for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
2) Company B (distributor) buys said product from Company A,marks it up for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
3) Company C (retailer) buys said product from Company B, marks it up for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
4) Grower A buys said product from Company C, uses it for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
Fact of the matter is the producer of the product typically makes the least profit. Growers makes the most, then retailer, then dist and last manufacturer.
Manufacturing anything in the US is darn right brutal right now. Taxes are rediculous, workers comp, insurance, etc makes the cost of doing business in the US way high. For a company to be doing it and making it work is against the odds in my opinion, especially one that actually warranties it goods and provides support as well.
Oh, and not to mention bringing a design concept to market that worx so well it's even worth DIY'ing.
I happen to know the CC folx very well and can tell you first hand it looks to cost a ton to do business properly. No pockets swelling from what I see, more so a steady but slow improvement of a business that will likely be around for decades because they are doing it right. IMO
Made 1000's of them? Really?
At what point will you stop lying to yourself and in turn misleading others that you even make hydro systems for sale?
Back to addressing reality.
My observation is that there isn't a hydro system on the market that can't be diy'd and save some money. The fact that it's actually a topic up for debate is beyond me. I can make anything on the market and save about 30% doing it, period....no exceptions.
Fact is most of the retail cost of the system is middle man mark up.
1) Company A makes a product, marks it up for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
2) Company B (distributor) buys said product from Company A,marks it up for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
3) Company C (retailer) buys said product from Company B, marks it up for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
4) Grower A buys said product from Company C, uses it for profit to make money and continue functioning as a business
Fact of the matter is the producer of the product typically makes the least profit. Growers makes the most, then retailer, then dist and last manufacturer.
Manufacturing anything in the US is darn right brutal right now. Taxes are rediculous, workers comp, insurance, etc makes the cost of doing business in the US way high. For a company to be doing it and making it work is against the odds in my opinion, especially one that actually warranties it goods and provides support as well.
Oh, and not to mention bringing a design concept to market that worx so well it's even worth DIY'ing.
I happen to know the CC folx very well and can tell you first hand it looks to cost a ton to do business properly. No pockets swelling from what I see, more so a steady but slow improvement of a business that will likely be around for decades because they are doing it right. IMO
P
potberryfin
Guest
Great post sky high, your DIY rocks I am truly amazed. I am sure you saved more than just a few bucks and still used more high quality parts! You also state an important point that besides the money saving, you also fully understand the system after building it.
What some people don't understand is that it does not have to be THE EXACT same, it seems to me several folks here use this whole apple to apple comparison to justify the outrageous UC prices..
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potberryfin
Guest
Thanks for your thorough research, calculations and the detailed parts list. About $500 for an exact DIY Under Current 4 XL 13, which retails on their website for $1199.95 is a BIG difference, I think we all agree here?
Now use the regular black Linpac lids that come with the 13 gallon tanks, which were originally used in the first UC systems and cost about $1-2 each, and you can save an additional $50 off the total. The $12 per small lid is too much. Have Casa DePot cut all the pvc pipes/tubing for you free of charge reduces labor time and the need for sheers. Total building time for this small 4 Site system would not be more than 3 hours really.
Sorry that whole apple to apple comparison seems to be a reason to justify the retail price. No two apples are alike and thus minor justifications are ok in a DIY project, as long as performance or quality are not influenced negatively in a major way, for instance with the lid example mentioned above.
You can save even more by replacing the costly pumps, with RIO or other quality air/water pumps offered by several hydroponic manufacturers.
pbf
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potberryfin
Guest
Texas Kid
Some guy with a light
- 4,159
- 263
With all due respect, you sound like an idiot that hasn't ever built anything..your over simplified cost analysis and lack of understanding on what it takes to actaully make something is entertaining to say the least. If your comparing the two as a means of prices comparison it DOES have to be the exact same you retard..that was the whole premis of your post, it is an apples to apples comparrison...period
Go source and build one because you are obviously still not even gettin close to truth yet...whats your time worth, mine is about $100/per hour and has been for about 20 years now, so that basically gives me 4-5 hours to research, source, order, recieve, drive around, and figure out and build the entire thing. It takes 3-4 hours to build one once everything is sittin right there and ready to go maybe. It takes 3-4 hours to assemble when you get one in the box from UC and literally everything is there ready to go.
I use mag drive or Wayne pumps and not Danner, which I think UC already made the change and I would use these in a DIY setup.
Rio pumps? really?? you should just grab a cheap ass ecoplus or activair pump since quality and reliability don't seem to be a concern, RIO pumps are dicounted cheap pumps.
Get Home depot to make a ton of cuts at angles in PVC? on their gear at the store,?your lost, they do not cut PVC on their saws at the store and deburr, they do not have that much freedom to do silly shit on their equipment. Plus they can only make I think 2 actual cuts for free and then it can be as much as $2 per cut, they do fudge alot on this but not much, they sure won't sit there with a cut list of different sizes and lengths of pvc pipe and cut them on an angle, your dreamin. I actually think it would be against their OSHA and local safety rules to cut PVC with a power tool due to the toxic fumes and hot molten plastic it throws in the air and melts to the blade. Yea, have HD make all your cuts and head home to find that your off a little or the cut doesn't really match what your trying to do, back to Home Depot. Have you ever actually bought or done anything at HD or was it just with your Dad? they don't really work like that
With the lid and at quantity, the 13 buckets are $20 each plus frieght, the lids themselves are not $1-$2, more like $5-$7 bucks each, where do you get your prices?
Really, go do the actual research or better yet put your money where your mouth is and build a real cheap knockoff and show us how its done. would love to see it cuz I love DIY projects, I am just more realistic because I have done many many DIY projects in the past and know what it takes.
You agree with JK? but you couldn't build a tank like he does or even one panel at all in a million years, he custom fabs them and they are not even remotely cheap to produce. You think $12 buck pvc shears are expensive, get a plastic welder on line and kickin and see how much your in. Do you even know how much 1 of JK's buckets would be? My guess is you would pass out my friend. Ask JK how much would 4 of his buckets would cost ya and be sittin down..lol
Wayne and Mag drive pumps are better than Danner IMO, I think UC already made a change to mag drives but i am not for sure
No one is saying you can't build one cheaper, just saying the actual savings is neglegible in the big scheme of things, UC makes a good, well thought out product, it is a conplete plug and play kit that is competetively priced in the market and it works.
Good luck with your project, if there actually is one.
Tex
Go source and build one because you are obviously still not even gettin close to truth yet...whats your time worth, mine is about $100/per hour and has been for about 20 years now, so that basically gives me 4-5 hours to research, source, order, recieve, drive around, and figure out and build the entire thing. It takes 3-4 hours to build one once everything is sittin right there and ready to go maybe. It takes 3-4 hours to assemble when you get one in the box from UC and literally everything is there ready to go.
I use mag drive or Wayne pumps and not Danner, which I think UC already made the change and I would use these in a DIY setup.
Rio pumps? really?? you should just grab a cheap ass ecoplus or activair pump since quality and reliability don't seem to be a concern, RIO pumps are dicounted cheap pumps.
Get Home depot to make a ton of cuts at angles in PVC? on their gear at the store,?your lost, they do not cut PVC on their saws at the store and deburr, they do not have that much freedom to do silly shit on their equipment. Plus they can only make I think 2 actual cuts for free and then it can be as much as $2 per cut, they do fudge alot on this but not much, they sure won't sit there with a cut list of different sizes and lengths of pvc pipe and cut them on an angle, your dreamin. I actually think it would be against their OSHA and local safety rules to cut PVC with a power tool due to the toxic fumes and hot molten plastic it throws in the air and melts to the blade. Yea, have HD make all your cuts and head home to find that your off a little or the cut doesn't really match what your trying to do, back to Home Depot. Have you ever actually bought or done anything at HD or was it just with your Dad? they don't really work like that
With the lid and at quantity, the 13 buckets are $20 each plus frieght, the lids themselves are not $1-$2, more like $5-$7 bucks each, where do you get your prices?
Really, go do the actual research or better yet put your money where your mouth is and build a real cheap knockoff and show us how its done. would love to see it cuz I love DIY projects, I am just more realistic because I have done many many DIY projects in the past and know what it takes.
You agree with JK? but you couldn't build a tank like he does or even one panel at all in a million years, he custom fabs them and they are not even remotely cheap to produce. You think $12 buck pvc shears are expensive, get a plastic welder on line and kickin and see how much your in. Do you even know how much 1 of JK's buckets would be? My guess is you would pass out my friend. Ask JK how much would 4 of his buckets would cost ya and be sittin down..lol
Wayne and Mag drive pumps are better than Danner IMO, I think UC already made a change to mag drives but i am not for sure
No one is saying you can't build one cheaper, just saying the actual savings is neglegible in the big scheme of things, UC makes a good, well thought out product, it is a conplete plug and play kit that is competetively priced in the market and it works.
Good luck with your project, if there actually is one.
Tex
motherlode
@Rolln_J
Supporter
- 5,524
- 313
I have to respectfully disagree TK - I dont find him entertaining at all
Texas Kid
Some guy with a light
- 4,159
- 263
babyhughie586
- 371
- 63
I have put together my own DIY UC right down to the square buckets and and 2" uniseals in my 8 gal buckets and i have to agree with jack on this.. The cost really does pile up but it still was quite a bit cheaper than the UC.. i would say it cost me around 800-1000... Shipping for the buckets alone was $175... i also searched every aquatic website for the best priced air/water pumps.. im on my second grow and the first one was great and this one is even better... With all that said i plan on purchasing a EVO 12 8 Gal system from cch2o because it is a pain in the ass to cut holes in all the buckets cut air hose ect.... there is really a lot that goes into making this system from scratch and i would rather spend the extra few hundred and get one and jus have to worry bout putting it together... Ohhh and for any of you cch2o people you really need to liust a p[arts list for your new PRO system i was really looking forward to getting one but $6500 for what seem to be just some bigger buckets!!! COME ON.... Now if that price includes Chiller, PH/PPM monitor better airstones and better Air pump i would buy one hands down... but 6500 for jus some bigger buckets give me a break, i could deff make one of those for 1/4 of the price
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potberryfin
Guest
Continue the childish name calling and keep bringing the insults in your posts.. You and motherlode. After UCMenow stated that he knows the UC owners and has very close ties to them it would not surprise me that all of you are under the same roof. Obviously you cannot say anything negative about the products so you team up against a person like me, who just tries to show the forums that you can save a whole lot of $$$ on these systems. You take every darn detail, even that PVC pipes have to be cut at angles in a DIY, to justify an outrageous retail price and promote these products so people don't even attempt to build their own. So the PVC pipes with simple straight cuts and some lube will not fit into the uniseals and perform the same as the angled cuts? DOES it have to be the exact same like you continue claiming? I think not - you are the one starting to look really retarded and are just strengthening my above point to all the readers.
YOU have made detailed calculations that equaled a total of about $500 for an exact DIY Under Current 4 XL 13, which retails on their website for $1199.95, thats like 60% cheaper than retail, which CONFIRMED THE TRUTH! I stated that I could further increase these savings, for instance by using a cheaper pump that would still carry a 1 year warranty, different lids, or regular cut pvc pipes. That apparently strikes a nerve with you and others promoting these products..
So your time is worth $100 an hour? How about encouraging people to build their own in their free time when they can save 700+ dollars and enjoy their own system for many years. Many people don't have $1200 to drop like that.
Really?!? An Under Current 4 XL 13 would take up to 4 hours for you? A joke, you must be taking a lot of coffee breaks to install a 4 bucket system, sorry 5 buckets..
Actually one of the first posts claimed exactly that, that's why I stepped in to prove a point and we did it together. People can save far more than 50% off retail, in our case about $700 + on the UC4XL13, they just need to decide for themselves if they want to. PERIOD. Now you guys, and maybe some others that are still hiding under your roof discouraging DIY builds of UC type systems, can start teaming up again and calling me retarded for calculations that were even confirmed by you.
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potberryfin
Guest
And one more thing about your time being worth $100/per hour...just say your time is worth $200/per hour so you can even make these systems appear to be a real bargain.
motherlode
@Rolln_J
Supporter
- 5,524
- 313
name calling - insults?
Im sure you can always have the last word and always be right over at icmag
Im sure you can always have the last word and always be right over at icmag
Texas Kid
Some guy with a light
- 4,159
- 263
I encourage everyone to build one, I am just being realistic about the cost and the possible savings...keep in mind that all my prices are based on buying bulk quantity not just a couple, if your buying onesy twosy it is goin to be alot more than the cost I have listed....my research and purchases where over two years ago now as well so i am sure prices have gone up as well.
The bologna cuts on the ends are functional and it does make a difference in the hydro-dynamics/flow of the water through the system.
Hell it takes an hour to figure out the drill fixture for the 3" holes, then you gotta make it, lay it out, drill the holes, and deburr each bucket twice..
Couldn't care less what you end up doin and don't care if you buy one or build one, I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but I do know what it takes to build one because I have built many of them now and know exactly what it takes. All I am trying to share that experience with you to take some of the pain away from tackling this project and give you a more realistic expectation of the work required and the posssible savings...did my part.
Good luck
Tex
The bologna cuts on the ends are functional and it does make a difference in the hydro-dynamics/flow of the water through the system.
Hell it takes an hour to figure out the drill fixture for the 3" holes, then you gotta make it, lay it out, drill the holes, and deburr each bucket twice..
Couldn't care less what you end up doin and don't care if you buy one or build one, I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but I do know what it takes to build one because I have built many of them now and know exactly what it takes. All I am trying to share that experience with you to take some of the pain away from tackling this project and give you a more realistic expectation of the work required and the posssible savings...did my part.
Good luck
Tex
Texas Kid
Some guy with a light
- 4,159
- 263
Just an FYI, that is almost the exact resale margin formula that almost every manufacturer uses accross the board in almost every industry I can think of..except computer tech.
Manufactures is a multiplier of 2.53 or real close to it to get their retail sale price. So take you total cost and multiply by 2.53 or divide by .40 and you get basically the same thing. This is really standard operating procedure in the manufaturing sector in order for them to make money.
We used to take the total cost of materials times 2.53 and then total hours at $100 an hour for shop time and honestly you still loose money sometimes, seems crazy but its true.
So at $600 bucks total cost times 2.53 is $1518.00 or divide by .40 and get $1500, eather way it is real close to the age old standard manufacturing formula for figuring retail/sale price.
Computer tech doesn't count because they will have .20 cents in cost on a memory chip and charge $120.00 for it at a retail level, talk about silly insane margins.
The difference between cost based pricing and value based pricing is another crazy animal to tackle if your feelin froggy.
Tex
Manufactures is a multiplier of 2.53 or real close to it to get their retail sale price. So take you total cost and multiply by 2.53 or divide by .40 and you get basically the same thing. This is really standard operating procedure in the manufaturing sector in order for them to make money.
We used to take the total cost of materials times 2.53 and then total hours at $100 an hour for shop time and honestly you still loose money sometimes, seems crazy but its true.
So at $600 bucks total cost times 2.53 is $1518.00 or divide by .40 and get $1500, eather way it is real close to the age old standard manufacturing formula for figuring retail/sale price.
Computer tech doesn't count because they will have .20 cents in cost on a memory chip and charge $120.00 for it at a retail level, talk about silly insane margins.
The difference between cost based pricing and value based pricing is another crazy animal to tackle if your feelin froggy.
Tex
Bud Spleefman
Premium Member
Supporter
- 587
- 63
I made a 24 site last year, and the main reason I did it DIY was because I already had the air pumps left over from my DWC days.... even had the manifolds still on the wall. I did it with the 8 gal. containers from Baytech, and I think it was 30 bucks a bucket, including lid. We ordered 48 buckects, and shipping was close to $400.00! Anyway, I split the order with a friend.....
I ran the thing twice, and have since given up on it, but it was cool, and worked.... but with only 2" PVC it clogged by week 5 or so, and then I had to put the water pump on a timer, like 30 secs on, off for 5 minutes.......... I would not waste my time with a 2" PVC model again, I think at least 3" and the 13 gal buckets, minimum!
Anyway, things like measuring the buckets for drilling, and measuring PVC for chopping take time, lots of time...... and you need the right tools, the blade for cutting PVC for my chop saw was $60.00..... Hole saws are expensive, too.......
If I did it again, I'd probably just order one, at least that way I wouldn't have to put an ugly ass trash bag over every bucket! I called this my UGLY CURRENT!
Here are some pictures......
I ran the thing twice, and have since given up on it, but it was cool, and worked.... but with only 2" PVC it clogged by week 5 or so, and then I had to put the water pump on a timer, like 30 secs on, off for 5 minutes.......... I would not waste my time with a 2" PVC model again, I think at least 3" and the 13 gal buckets, minimum!
Anyway, things like measuring the buckets for drilling, and measuring PVC for chopping take time, lots of time...... and you need the right tools, the blade for cutting PVC for my chop saw was $60.00..... Hole saws are expensive, too.......
If I did it again, I'd probably just order one, at least that way I wouldn't have to put an ugly ass trash bag over every bucket! I called this my UGLY CURRENT!
Here are some pictures......
Texas Kid
Some guy with a light
- 4,159
- 263
Nice!!!
Tex
Tex
UCMENOW
- 1,095
- 83
PotBerry, NotVerry smart it seems ;)
K
Kaiser Puff
- 102
- 0
I just finished a DIY UC and I gotta say alot of hours went into trial and error, fighting leaks etc. The lessons learned were valuable though like running the holesaw in reverse for a clean hole (had to redo a leaky tub due to this) using heavy duty PVC glue on the 3" manifold (waterweld is a great 'oh shit' fix to this, props cch2o). Even though it was a pain in the ass couple of days it was worth it to be able to create one again fairly quickly in the future if needed.
Bud Spleefman
Premium Member
Supporter
- 587
- 63
Nice! Those tubs you used seem to be the ones that leak around the Uniseals, must be some thin walls on those.....
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