Issue with hydro grow see pics

[Treebeard88]

Evening all
Hoping you can help diagnose a problem I've got , see image.
I have 2 60 litres tanks, running at 700ppm and 6 - 6.2 pH, each with 2 plants in so 4 total.
This girl is by far worse affected and has been like this nearly a week but doesn't seem to have got any worse. The other plant in the res is starting to show signs but very minimal and is not getting worse. Not all bud sites are like it, seems to be the higher ones, roots seem fine.
I had very high temps over a couple of days due to a record heatwave, however the other tank with 2 plants in shows no sign of this. They look fine.
Any help would be appreciated
Treebeard

 

[Deadstill]

Looks like you're getting too much Iron... How's your water before adding nutes?

 

[Moe.Red]

Wow, that's pretty bad.

I'm not smart enough to take the info posted and give you a specific response, I would need to know a lot more.

Shots of the whole system will answer a lot of questions. Like is this RDWC? Lights? Strain - auto or photo? The more info you give the more likely you are to get the correct answer.

 

[Treebeard88]

Thanks for the replies.
So this is my first grow
me and a friend built the room.. attic.. next time would prefer basement or ground floor level..
Nutes - growers ark
So it is a NFT system, 60 liter tanks, pumps on all the time, low/medium.
Light - Maxibright daylight led 1030w pro on @ 50% due to summer.. heat is pissing me off..
Strain - Northern lights Ice seed bank photo
In flower - will confirm tomorrow exactly how long
Been in veg for nearly 3 months but ran into issues as a first grower but some plants took better hence why some are smaller, I have made a lot of mistakes but rectified them. This first grow has taught me so much so hopefully we can get through this issue as well. One of the issues you might see on one plant is I fimmed and didnt leave enough time and decided to flip.
I tested the res tonight, PPM was at 800/900, so I topped up to where it needed to be which was +10L water - PPM back @ 700. No nutes added as 700 PPM is the goal but did add 20ml root tonic + 50ml extra traces as I didnt add any food. Same on both tanks. If was under 700 I would have topped back to that level with Hydro part 2 A&B .
I've attached more pictures, the right hand tank is doing better but the girl at the back the smallest was stunted the most but now she has the very nice flowers now.
the tank on the left is where the issues are especially with the girl at the back.
Had a heat wave recently and temps went way to high and peaked at 38c but the right tank seems ok..
It has been a while since I did a res change and I'm thinking perhaps one is overdue, it may rejuvenate the girls? However a user called NFT on here does not change res so thats proof you do not need to do it. On this run I have changed the res once. Roots look good in my opinion but I want to hear from the masters
Next run should be a lot more successful! Fingers crossed
Lemme know if you need any more info
Cheers
Treebeard

 

[Treebeard88]

To add I do have small oxygen stones one in each tank.
Thinking about increasing exhaust and intake power & have a controller so can control temps better but we will see have we go in the colder months first. I can confirm what I have tomorrow if needed + exact size of room
I have a de humidifier keeping it at 50% cant seem to get it any lower without it working 24/7 and that doesnt help the heat. it has cooled off recently though but can still go to 30c.
Got 1 small fan near my intake blowing into the front. 1 small fan mounted under LEDs blowing towards filter. 1 large fan just blowing above canopy in front of infected plant
I think that is it. Thanks again

 

[Moe.Red]

That's really interesting. I do not know anyone who is running NFT or ever heard of Growers Ark, so my suggestions about nutes are gonna be a total guess. Are you in Europe?

I agree with @Deadstill tho, this seems to be a buildup of a micro nutrient, possibly iron. Too much of a good thing. There are some other signs of nute burn too.

I'm amazed in the last pic how little roots there are to support that plant. I feel like I am misunderstanding something.

When you say 700PPM is the goal, where did you get that number, and what scale (500 or 700) are you referencing and measuring by? PPM can be a little screwy across manufacturers and probes. My gut is that you have your nutes too high. I have run RDWC for a lot of years, and 700PPM would be scary high for me.

 

[Moe.Red]

BTW - those leaves will not recover. But don't take them off - you got too few photosynthetic sites already.

 

[RootsRuler]

Something is stressing them out big time. You can see it in the leaves. Review all systems from light to feed water and see if there's something that is stressing them out.

 

[tobh]

i'm with @Moe.Red on this one. too much of a good thing, likely a few. Dial the lights back quite a bit until you get this figured out and the new growth looks healthy.

NFT is one of those systems that you need to dial back the nutes some as well. It's not like rockwool or coco where the media can support higher EC charges, so you have to accommodate accordingly. It's the same thing in (R)DWC -- medialess grows mean less is more. if you're on the Hanna scale, 700ppm is like 1.2EC which is definitely too much.

 

[Buzzzz]

Thanks for the replies.
So this is my first grow
me and a friend built the room.. attic.. next time would prefer basement or ground floor level..
Nutes - growers ark
So it is a NFT system, 60 liter tanks, pumps on all the time, low/medium.
Light - Maxibright daylight led 1030w pro on @ 50% due to summer.. heat is pissing me off..
Strain - Northern lights Ice seed bank photo
In flower - will confirm tomorrow exactly how long
Been in veg for nearly 3 months but ran into issues as a first grower but some plants took better hence why some are smaller, I have made a lot of mistakes but rectified them. This first grow has taught me so much so hopefully we can get through this issue as well. One of the issues you might see on one plant is I fimmed and didnt leave enough time and decided to flip.
I tested the res tonight, PPM was at 800/900, so I topped up to where it needed to be which was +10L water - PPM back @ 700. No nutes added as 700 PPM is the goal but did add 20ml root tonic + 50ml extra traces as I didnt add any food. Same on both tanks. If was under 700 I would have topped back to that level with Hydro part 2 A&B .
I've attached more pictures, the right hand tank is doing better but the girl at the back the smallest was stunted the most but now she has the very nice flowers now.
the tank on the left is where the issues are especially with the girl at the back.
Had a heat wave recently and temps went way to high and peaked at 38c but the right tank seems ok..
It has been a while since I did a res change and I'm thinking perhaps one is overdue, it may rejuvenate the girls? However a user called NFT on here does not change res so thats proof you do not need to do it. On this run I have changed the res once. Roots look good in my opinion but I want to hear from the masters
Next run should be a lot more successful! Fingers crossed
Lemme know if you need any more info
Cheers
Treebeard

Was your reservoir temp 38 as well? You had a lockout or nuked them, if it's that hot and you can't control it,you should thin your solution and/or shade them. The other plants may be more tolerant if you have exactly the same conditions but just guessing,something is different between the 2 tanks.

 

[FlyinEagle]

Sorry this happened to ya, i'll only use soil now that ive perfected my mix. Hope ya get it straightened out. Ive done some damage and they forgave me and pulled through.

 

[Deadstill]

I never got an answer to my first question, at least not that I could see..


The reason I ask what your PPM of your water is before nutes - is because I have had this exact same problem and I'll tell you exactly what it is.

Your roots in the pic look just like mine did. Pull them out of the water and run your fingers over them. I bet you've got root rot. If you run your fingers over the roots and they feel slimy - there's your problem.

Personally my biggest issue was I was using well water that had a PPM of 650 out the tap. My well was also infested with "iron bacteria" which gives excessive amounts of iron and manganese in your water.

Get yourself a good RO system and only use clean RO water to start.

The next issue is NFT. NFT is very hard to control root rot. NFT naturally lets more light into the root zone which in turn will end up giving you root rot issues. You need to seal every single port in your channels, make sure there is ZERO light getting in the channels either from the ports or the covers or whatever.

Next you need to make sure your rez. temps are stable. You can achieve this either by buying a cooler (expensive) - moving the reservoirs outside of the grow room, or make your own cooler. I made mine with an old radiator from a busted down Chevy Cavalier. You can even use the fan from the radiator or place a different fan in front of it, place it in front of an A/C unit, swamp cooler, whatever you can manage..

Lastly I can tell you 700 ppm for an NFT system is way too much.. After I finally got my NFT squared away I was running 250-350 ppm MAX, any more than that, I got all kinds of issues. NFT is great for picking up nutrients and quite frankly the best hydroponics system (and hardest to do) out of all hydro systems (in my humble opinion).

But I'm willing to bet money on A) too much iron in your base water - B) Too much light getting into channels or reservoir or both - C) Water temps too high. - and D) PPM of nutes a little too high for the type of hydro you are using.


Also, if you still cannot get root rot under control after all these measures - I recommend switching to a sterile system. This can be done very easily by adding a couple ml/gal of bleach to the reservoir every other day or so.

Let me know if any of these issues may be pertinent to your situation - as I believe they are. NFT is something of a pet hobby of mine


Edit to add - I just looked closer at your pics - are those plants in Rockwool cubes in the NFT channels?? That's a problem, as well. IF that's what I'm seeing - part of the issue is the rockwool is pulling water up, exposing it to light, and causing a breeding ground for pathogens. I had to custom design my own channels and to solve the issue of wicking water up, I used net pots with hydroton (clay pebbles) and made sure they were suspended well above the water line. You don't want wicking water up to the base of your plants in NFT- that will definitely cause root rot issues.

 

[atmosphere]

Bring down EC levels for more heat resistance !

 

[Treebeard88]

That's really interesting. I do not know anyone who is running NFT or ever heard of Growers Ark, so my suggestions about nutes are gonna be a total guess. Are you in Europe?

I agree with @Deadstill tho, this seems to be a buildup of a micro nutrient, possibly iron. Too much of a good thing. There are some other signs of nute burn too.

I'm amazed in the last pic how little roots there are to support that plant. I feel like I am misunderstanding something.

When you say 700PPM is the goal, where did you get that number, and what scale (500 or 700) are you referencing and measuring by? PPM can be a little screwy across manufacturers and probes. My gut is that you have your nutes too high. I have run RDWC for a lot of years, and 700PPM would be scary high for me.

I am based in Europe, hello from across the big pond!
Ok note don the build up, my job tonight is to empty & re fill the tanks to a lower ppm. My tap water sits @ 100/200 ppm and this is on the 500 scale.
What ppm would you aim for?

 

[Treebeard88]

i'm with @Moe.Red on this one. too much of a good thing, likely a few. Dial the lights back quite a bit until you get this figured out and the new growth looks healthy.

NFT is one of those systems that you need to dial back the nutes some as well. It's not like rockwool or coco where the media can support higher EC charges, so you have to accommodate accordingly. It's the same thing in (R)DWC -- medialess grows mean less is more. if you're on the Hanna scale, 700ppm is like 1.2EC which is definitely too much.

What PPM would you recommend? I am using the Hanna scale.
Cheers

 

[Treebeard88]

Was your reservoir temp 38 as well? You had a lockout or nuked them, if it's that hot and you can't control it,you should thin your solution and/or shade them. The other plants may be more tolerant if you have exactly the same conditions but just guessing,something is different between the 2 tanks.

Not sure on res temp, shouldn't be as high as the room however. I tested the water and it was cool to the touch but no idea what exact temp.
It must be a res issue as the other tank isn't showing signs.. full res change tonight.

 

[Treebeard88]

Sorry this happened to ya, i'll only use soil now that ive perfected my mix. Hope ya get it straightened out. Ive done some damage and they forgave me and pulled through.

No need to apologise, it is all a learning curve. Just hoping I can finish this grow as I have learnt so much over this time. It would be a shame if some plants didn't make it.

 

[Treebeard88]

I never got an answer to my first question, at least not that I could see..


The reason I ask what your PPM of your water is before nutes - is because I have had this exact same problem and I'll tell you exactly what it is.

Your roots in the pic look just like mine did. Pull them out of the water and run your fingers over them. I bet you've got root rot. If you run your fingers over the roots and they feel slimy - there's your problem.

Personally my biggest issue was I was using well water that had a PPM of 650 out the tap. My well was also infested with "iron bacteria" which gives excessive amounts of iron and manganese in your water.

Get yourself a good RO system and only use clean RO water to start.

The next issue is NFT. NFT is very hard to control root rot. NFT naturally lets more light into the root zone which in turn will end up giving you root rot issues. You need to seal every single port in your channels, make sure there is ZERO light getting in the channels either from the ports or the covers or whatever.

Next you need to make sure your rez. temps are stable. You can achieve this either by buying a cooler (expensive) - moving the reservoirs outside of the grow room, or make your own cooler. I made mine with an old radiator from a busted down Chevy Cavalier. You can even use the fan from the radiator or place a different fan in front of it, place it in front of an A/C unit, swamp cooler, whatever you can manage..

Lastly I can tell you 700 ppm for an NFT system is way too much.. After I finally got my NFT squared away I was running 250-350 ppm MAX, any more than that, I got all kinds of issues. NFT is great for picking up nutrients and quite frankly the best hydroponics system (and hardest to do) out of all hydro systems (in my humble opinion).

But I'm willing to bet money on A) too much iron in your base water - B) Too much light getting into channels or reservoir or both - C) Water temps too high. - and D) PPM of nutes a little too high for the type of hydro you are using.


Also, if you still cannot get root rot under control after all these measures - I recommend switching to a sterile system. This can be done very easily by adding a couple ml/gal of bleach to the reservoir every other day or so.

Let me know if any of these issues may be pertinent to your situation - as I believe they are. NFT is something of a pet hobby of mine


Edit to add - I just looked closer at your pics - are those plants in Rockwool cubes in the NFT channels?? That's a problem, as well. IF that's what I'm seeing - part of the issue is the rockwool is pulling water up, exposing it to light, and causing a breeding ground for pathogens. I had to custom design my own channels and to solve the issue of wicking water up, I used net pots with hydroton (clay pebbles) and made sure they were suspended well above the water line. You don't want wicking water up to the base of your plants in NFT- that will definitely cause root rot issues.

Sorry for missing your question Deadstill & thank you for such a detailed reply.

My tap water sits at 100/200 PPM - what strength would you recommend?

I am sometimes using an extra traces which is an additive so I am thinking this is where the excess iron or other micro nutrient issue is coming from along with too high PPM as my other tank doesn't show signs which is strange as their feeding schedule is similar.

I am also using a root tonic - https://www.growers-ark.com/products/root-tonic - which I am hoping will prevent root rot but I will run my fingers over them tonight & see.

Res temps - this is something I do not do, I will research your suggestions.

Light in the channels - I have weighted each corner down to prevent this but I can always tape the length so prevent further.

Great to know NFT is a hobby of yours, hopefully I can still pull from this run and have a much better one next time.

Yes the 2 largest plants have made the cubes sink in a bit so I am going to put the plastic pizza box holder underneath them to lift / raise them.

Thanks again

 

[Treebeard88]

Bring down EC levels for more heat resistance !

What PPM / EC do you recommend?
Cheers

 

[Moe.Red]

I am based in Europe, hello from across the big pond!
Ok note don the build up, my job tonight is to empty & re fill the tanks to a lower ppm. My tap water sits @ 100/200 ppm and this is on the 500 scale.
What ppm would you aim for?

I would cut it in half to begin with and see how the plants respond. I have not done this grow style before so have no first hand experience.