Jack's nutrients question

Camdawg · Jun 19, 2013

Just a few quick questions before I buy.

I plan to run a chow mix (hydroton clay and coco) dtw should I be using Jack's hydro or jacks classic? Do I need MOST? Do I need the Jacks bloom booster? I've read the Jack's pro thread as well as other threads on Jack's just wanted to get a solid answer on these questions. Thanks farm fam

-Camdawg

pugliese63 · Jun 19, 2013

I'd go with Jack's Hydro along with the Calcium nitrate. They offer a package price for both.

I was using Jacks along with the cal nitrate and epsom salt in the 3-2-1 formula that somewhat popular. Recently, I was given a more optimal formulation which I really like.

2.5 grams Jacks Hydro
2.5 grams Cal nitrate
.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate (first 3 weeks bloom)
.25 grams ammonium phosphate (weeks 4 through 6 or 7 or 8 depending on the strain)

All weights are per gallon of water.

Big thanks to dizzlekush for this formula. My plants are loving it. I run on bulk rockwool with hydroton in 4x4 beds. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be ideal with a chow mix of coco and hydroton once the coco is conditioned.

I've never used the MOST so I can't really give any useful information. I know Capulator has experience with that item.

As far as the Bloom Booster, I've used it a couple of different ways. I've added it at a .5 gram a gallon to my base nutrient during flower and honestly didn't see any difference overall.

Its my understanding according to the folks at J.R. Peters that the bloom booster is a one time, stand alone shot. No need to add the cal nitrate. I've used it this way, as a single shot right around the 17 to 21 day mark. I ran it at 3 grams a gallon solo. It's definitely more effective used in this manner. Although I'm not going to say it increased my yields. It did make them stretch quite a bit more. Even at 3 weeks when they're usually starting to top out. All my plants looked great, no burnt leaf tips. At more than 3 grams a gallon I noticed I would get tip burns.

Since I've begun using dizzlekush's formula I don't see any need for the Bloom Booster. Switching from the ammonium sulphate to the ammonium phosphate at week 3 will give you the extra P that would otherwise come from the bloom booster.

This is strictly based on my experience using Jack's. I'm sure there are others who are more knowledgeable and can go into greater detail, especially regarding coco.

I hope this is of some use.

cheaplastic · Jun 22, 2013

pugliese63 said:
I'd go with Jack's Hydro along with the Calcium nitrate. They offer a package price for both.

I was using Jacks along with the cal nitrate and epsom salt in the 3-2-1 formula that somewhat popular. Recently, I was given a more optimal formulation which I really like.

2.5 grams Jacks Hydro
2.5 grams Cal nitrate
.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate (first 3 weeks bloom)
.25 grams ammonium phosphate (weeks 4 through 6 or 7 or 8 depending on the strain)

All weights are per gallon of water.

Big thanks to dizzlekush for this formula. My plants are loving it. I run on bulk rockwool with hydroton in 4x4 beds. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be ideal with a chow mix of coco and hydroton once the coco is conditioned.

I've never used the MOST so I can't really give any useful information. I know Capulator has experience with that item.

As far as the Bloom Booster, I've used it a couple of different ways. I've added it at a .5 gram a gallon to my base nutrient during flower and honestly didn't see any difference overall.

Its my understanding according to the folks at J.R. Peters that the bloom booster is a one time, stand alone shot. No need to add the cal nitrate. I've used it this way, as a single shot right around the 17 to 21 day mark. I ran it at 3 grams a gallon solo. It's definitely more effective used in this manner. Although I'm not going to say it increased my yields. It did make them stretch quite a bit more. Even at 3 weeks when they're usually starting to top out. All my plants looked great, no burnt leaf tips. At more than 3 grams a gallon I noticed I would get tip burns.

Since I've begun using dizzlekush's formula I don't see any need for the Bloom Booster. Switching from the ammonium sulphate to the ammonium phosphate at week 3 will give you the extra P that would otherwise come from the bloom booster.

This is strictly based on my experience using Jack's. I'm sure there are others who are more knowledgeable and can go into greater detail, especially regarding coco.

I hope this is of some use.

wow what a wealth of info!!

please post some bud pics!!!

Tony69 · Jun 23, 2013

Pugliese63,
2.5 grams of Jacks Hydroponic 5-12-26 ???
You no longer use Epsom salt in your mix?
Do you run the .25 grams of potassium silicate all the way through flower?
thanks,

dizzlekush · Jun 26, 2013

pugliese63 said:
I'd go with Jack's Hydro along with the Calcium nitrate. They offer a package price for both.

I was using Jacks along with the cal nitrate and epsom salt in the 3-2-1 formula that somewhat popular. Recently, I was given a more optimal formulation which I really like.

2.5 grams Jacks Hydro
2.5 grams Cal nitrate
.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate (first 3 weeks bloom)
.25 grams ammonium phosphate (weeks 4 through 6 or 7 or 8 depending on the strain)

All weights are per gallon of water.

Big thanks to dizzlekush for this formula. My plants are loving it. I run on bulk rockwool with hydroton in 4x4 beds. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be ideal with a chow mix of coco and hydroton once the coco is conditioned.

I've never used the MOST so I can't really give any useful information. I know Capulator has experience with that item.

As far as the Bloom Booster, I've used it a couple of different ways. I've added it at a .5 gram a gallon to my base nutrient during flower and honestly didn't see any difference overall.

Its my understanding according to the folks at J.R. Peters that the bloom booster is a one time, stand alone shot. No need to add the cal nitrate. I've used it this way, as a single shot right around the 17 to 21 day mark. I ran it at 3 grams a gallon solo. It's definitely more effective used in this manner. Although I'm not going to say it increased my yields. It did make them stretch quite a bit more. Even at 3 weeks when they're usually starting to top out. All my plants looked great, no burnt leaf tips. At more than 3 grams a gallon I noticed I would get tip burns.

Since I've begun using dizzlekush's formula I don't see any need for the Bloom Booster. Switching from the ammonium sulphate to the ammonium phosphate at week 3 will give you the extra P that would otherwise come from the bloom booster.

This is strictly based on my experience using Jack's. I'm sure there are others who are more knowledgeable and can go into greater detail, especially regarding coco.

I hope this is of some use.

Glad to see you're liking the formula. Do you see any differences compared to running the 3-2-1 formula? I'd imagine yield would increase a bit since you increase CalcNit application by ~25%, but maybe not. Also feel free to be overly critical in any constructive criticism you might have about the formula. I like to hear others experiences with the formula.

Just for clarification, I suggest the usage of Di-ammonium phosphate (DAP) since it provides the same amount of NH4 as the Ammonium sulphate does, so NH4 levels don't change when you switch from ammonium sulfate to DAP. Also its more important that the Jacks Pro and CalciNit be used in equal amounts than it is important that they be used at 2.5 grams per gallon. Its the ratio that is optimal, not so much the quantity or concentration. The 2.5-2.5 .25-.25 'ratio' application was just what I would start out with on the typical indoor 1000w setup, it could just as easily have been a 2.0-2.0-.20-.20 ratio or a 1.5-1.5-.15-.15 ratio. The point is that Jacks Pro and the CalciNit should be provided at equal amounts while the potassium silicate and ammonium sulphate/phosphate be provided at 1/10 (10%) the strength and also at equal amounts. This provides a more optimal nutrient profile than the popular 3-2-1 formula.

ReCway · Jun 29, 2013

ive been using 3/2/1 for some time now and have never had so little problems with my plants. Super Healthy from clone to chop. No pest, def, toxicity, leaf curl nothing. Just super healty plants. If this fromula will increase yeild a bit iim gonnna try it. Where did you source your other stuff from?
.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate (first 3 weeks bloom)
.25 grams ammonium phosphate (weeks 4 through 6 or 7 or 8 depending on the strain)

cctt · Jun 29, 2013

I'm also curious about the no-epsoms. I see the S is taken care of by the (NH4)2SO4 but isn't Mg going to be lacking? Are you running this with RO water or tap?

dizzlekush · Jun 29, 2013

ReCway said:
ive been using 3/2/1 for some time now and have never had so little problems with my plants. Super Healthy from clone to chop. No pest, def, toxicity, leaf curl nothing. Just super healty plants. If this fromula will increase yeild a bit iim gonnna try it. Where did you source your other stuff from?
.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate (first 3 weeks bloom)
.25 grams ammonium phosphate (weeks 4 through 6 or 7 or 8 depending on the strain)

Amazon, Ebay and Customhydronutes.com. Whichevers got the best price. CHN is gonna be the best choice for the Potassium Silicate

cctt said:
I'm also curious about the no-epsoms. I see the S is taken care of by the (NH4)2SO4 but isn't Mg going to be lacking? Are you running this with RO water or tap?

There's more Mg than P in Jacks, and Jacks Professional has extra Epsom compared to Peters Hydrosol which otherwise is the same product. Jacks does not need additional Mg.

cctt · Jun 29, 2013

Do you think this formula would also be compatible with (or benefit from) some CaCl2?

cctt · Jun 29, 2013

Also, I understand that sulfur plays an important role in flavor - and always thought there was good reason to use it later into flower - hence boosting epsoms at the end. Here we're pulling back on sulfur. Is this by design or a side effect of boosting phosphorus while keeping its attached cation, ammonium, at the same level?

Camdawg · Jun 29, 2013

Thanks for all the amazing input so far another question will jacks work with recirculating hydro or just DTW?

ttystikk · Jun 29, 2013

My nutrient regimen is substantially different from what has been discussed above, but I've been running Jacks in RDWC for years now.

dizzlekush · Jun 29, 2013

cctt said:
Do you think this formula would also be compatible with (or benefit from) some CaCl2?

Compatible yes, benefit no. Only reason I see to do it is if trying to limit NO3 levels while maintaining high Ca levels, which would be to satisfy some pseudo-scientific notion about Brix, or plant defenses, or senescence, etc. No real legitimate reason not to get all Ca levels from CalciNit if using solutes, the plants N requirements are always greater than its Ca requirements.

cctt said:
Also, I understand that sulfur plays an important role in flavor - and always thought there was good reason to use it later into flower - hence boosting epsoms at the end. Here we're pulling back on sulfur. Is this by design or a side effect of boosting phosphorus while keeping its attached cation, ammonium, at the same level?

Its a side effect of boosting phosphorous while keeping NH4 in check. The S being essential for flavor is a popular notion that AFAIK originated from that fact that certain crops like Brassica family and Allium genus vegetables (mustard and garlic families essentially) have huge S requirements for the production of the crops essential oils and organosulfurs that make up the main constituents of those particular crops flavors. Someone decided that that may have some relevance to cannabis and boom, the S = flavor notion was born. It almost makes sense since S is required in large amounts to create terpenes and terpenoids (Mevalonate and Non-mevalonate pathways), but then again N and P are required in even greater amounts for terpene/terpenoid synthesis, and you don't see anyone preaching N for flavor.

Ive grown crops providing ~30, ~ 60 and ~120ppm S in fertigations the whole grow and was not able to discern any differences in plant growth or quality (potency, smell, taste) of the final product. I personally do not believe that level of S fertigation has much effect on final flavor, but that's just my personal knowledge and experience, not saying its 100% bullshit.

cctt · Jul 3, 2013

Dizzlekush, thanks for a very good answer! I will be trying your formula on my next round in a DTW coco system and have sourced all the necessary dry salts except the K2SiO3. I still have a gallon of Pro-Tekt around but I'm having trouble calculating the amounts -
Custom hydro nutrients lists their dry product as 32% K2O, 52.8% SiO2
While Dynagrow Pro-Tekt is 3.7% K2O, 7.8% SiO2
Why are the ratios between K2O and SiO2 different between these products? Liquid or dry they should be in the same relative proportions if it originated from the same salt, correct?

homebrew420 · Jul 7, 2013

The pro-tekt is diluted. Dizzle has got you covered well. Throu ghout veg we were using 2.5-2.8g/gal hydro. The ec @3g was 2.0 much high then needed through most of the grow. Pushing higher levels from onset of flower to week 6 or so has been found in our case to higher yields due to more growth. We use co2 as well, and this without a doubt is more effective with high ec.

Peace

cctt · Jul 25, 2013

I have sourced all the necessary salts. Another question for you: are the ammonium additions excluded during veg? So the first N boost comes with the flip?

icepick · Jul 26, 2013

I will say i do like jacks its fairly simple but i have noticed that my yeilds have suffered greatly.
I have ran the jacks pro cal/nit and epsom. Also ran the the jacks hydroFEed and didnt really notice much of a difference between the 2 grows. I used hammerhead and MOAB in flower but like i said yeilds were less than par but the plants were VERY healthy. Any input on a different approach im all ears.

ttystikk · Jul 26, 2013

icepick said:
I will say i do like jacks its fairly simple but i have noticed that my yeilds have suffered greatly.
I have ran the jacks pro cal/nit and epsom. Also ran the the jacks hydroFEed and didnt really notice much of a difference between the 2 grows. I used hammerhead and MOAB in flower but like i said yeilds were less than par but the plants were VERY healthy. Any input on a different approach im all ears.

How did you manage to get really healthy plants, but lower yields? The two travel in lockstep for me...

icepick · Jul 26, 2013

ttystikk said:
How did you manage to get really healthy plants, but lower yields? The two travel in lockstep for me...

Meaning "healthy" very green and no yellowing. I've lolipopped them used diff strains grown them 4ft to 5ft and still can't seem to tune them in. IMO 2 per plant is fail.

ttystikk · Jul 26, 2013

If Jacks doesn't do it for you in this environment, what has in the past- and why?

Jack's nutrients question

Jack's nutrients question

Camdawg

pugliese63

cheaplastic

Tony69

dizzlekush

ReCway

cctt

dizzlekush

cctt

cctt

Camdawg

ttystikk

dizzlekush

cctt

homebrew420

cctt

icepick

ttystikk

icepick

ttystikk

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