Jack's nutrients question

[splakdawg]

If the red petioles are accompanied by increased chlorosis of the bottom foliage than it could be a deficiency any of the major macronutrients aside from Ca and S. If the red petioles are not accompanied by lower foliage chlorosis than it probably a minor temperature issue, could be a sudden change in temperature or too high of temperatures at night.

The reduction in calcium nitrate is (anecdotally) suggested for improved flavor of final product, however your assertion that the plant requires less N during the last stages of growth is AFAIK, incorrect, unless there's been an over-application of N and an accumulation in the medium or plant tissue. As along as the plant is growing (increasing dry biomass) and producing the desired metabolites (both primary and secondary), N will be required in greater amounts over any other element aside from possibly K by small amounts. Always.

That being said, cannabis is way more sensitive to N overapplication than any other macro nutrient aside from Mg. Cannabis can handle huge overapplications of K Ca and S without showing any toxicity, while N will cause significant toxicity. Perhaps your assertion that you plant needs less N during the later stages is correct, however as I see it, if correct, it implies that your plant needs fertilizer in general as opposed to less N in relation to other nutrients.

As far as as following any specific nutrient ratio (e.g. N:Ca), I don't think ratios or relative values are all that important as opposed to the absolute amounts of nutrient applied. Again that being said, fertilization with N causes a softening of plant tissue and fertilization with Ca, B and Si causes a toughening of the tissue so the Ca:N ratio does have a very real effect on basic plant tissue strength, but following a o.8 ratio is more to keep Ca high if N is high so tissue doesn't soften excessively, not that you should necessarily drop Ca if dropping N. Those following Albrecht ratios often apply more Ca than any other nutrient and their plants do just fine.

Thx for the help dk. Any advice or recommendations to battle my probelm. Just checked on my ladies and they seem to be doing slightly better. I mixed up a 5 gal bucket at half my normal rate (15-10-5 = 7.5-5-2.5)
Ppms came out at 650ish it normally is 1000-1100
Pretty much what would u do during this situation. What ratio do u run ur jacks.
Some plants "dolphin dicks" are loving the normal 3-2-1 ratio

 

[dizzlekush]

Thanks again for a well thought out answer and some new information I haven't yet heard. I'm a bit unclear about how a couple pieces of advice you've given are compatible though-

The first quote is talking about how i cannot suggest a universal dosage (e.g. 3 grams Jacks pro & 2 grams calcinit per gallon) per gallon for all growers to follow since the level of total nutrient requirements of any particular crop will change drastically based on a variety of conditions (genetics, watering rate, medium AEC & CEC, volume & density of medium, PPFD, umol/mol CO2, temperature etc. etc.) and addressing the point that our crop in no way will ever need that much more K than N and Ca that the 3:2 Pro:calcinit ratio provides.

The 2nd quote is saying that instead of maintaining say, a 2:1 or 3:1 or 6:1 Ca:Mg ratio for example, all that really matters is that enough of each is provided without causing toxicity or antagonized absorption of other nutrients, which is what literally hundreds of randomized controlled trials in dozens of species has confirmed, but it hasn't stopped people from suggesting say a 1:0.8 N:Ca ratio (an old fatman claim IIRC).

 

[dizzlekush]

Thx for the help dk. Any advice or recommendations to battle my probelm. Just checked on my ladies and they seem to be doing slightly better. I mixed up a 5 gal bucket at half my normal rate (15-10-5 = 7.5-5-2.5)
Ppms came out at 650ish it normally is 1000-1100
Pretty much what would u do during this situation. What ratio do u run ur jacks.
Some plants "dolphin dicks" are loving the normal 3-2-1 ratio

What EC is your water before adding any salts?

Id try a pour-thru to see how your medium pH and EC is and adjust from there.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/Florex/PourThru Handout 123s.pdf

If I had to guess, Mg toxicity, but cant say. Id stop adding the epsom salt and cut out 1 gram per gallon of the Jacks and see how your plants react to that. In all honesty I've never enjoyed growing in coco. More watering, less yield.

"Ma and Nichols (2004) recently reported that the problems with coir extend beyond its high salinity. Their data indicate that high concentrations of phenolic compounds in fresh coir are at least partly responsible for the growth reductions observed in other studies..."
and
"These studies show that coconut coir should be used with great caution. Although the Sri Lanka brands performed better than the Mexican brands, no brand performed consistently better than sphagnum peat. Some species tolerate coir better than others. The addition of calcium sulfate to the media did not have a consistently beneficial effect on growth and in some cases it reduced growth..."

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
^Suggested reading for all those growing in coconut coir^

 

[splakdawg]

What EC is your water before adding any salts?

Id try a pour-thru to see how your medium pH and EC is and adjust from there.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/Florex/PourThru Handout 123s.pdf

If I had to guess, Mg toxicity, but cant say. Id stop adding the epsom salt and cut out 1 gram per gallon of the Jacks and see how your plants react to that. In all honesty I've never enjoyed growing in coco. More watering, less yield.


http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
^Suggested reading for all those growing in coconut coir^

First time I ever heard anyone say less yield. Yield was the whole point of switching. And I'm gonna take ur advice and see what it do. Thx bro

 

[Bangarang]

High EC and low RH leads to burn.
Low EC with high RH leads to deficiencies.

Thus, match EC to RH for good results. For best results, run high RH, high EC- and then supplement with CO², FTW!!

So with the standard 3-2-1 what are do you like to run at various stages?
Do i treat Jacks like GH where i ramp up the EC late in flower?
Veg EC after transplant? 1.2
EC for moms? 1.2-1.4
EC in flower? 1.6

I understand what you are saying about VPD but i want to be able to step into Jack's and crush it. I used to have amazing results with my formula but i changed to many variables and now am trying to bring it back and keep it clean and consistent.

 

[Bangarang]

Th answer to my own question is to start understanding the nutrients better by looking at the nutrient calculator.
Wanted to thank everyone for all the info

 

[TinyPepperB]

Bump bump, toke toke toke!

Hello everyone,
I joined this forum to report that I am in the midst of a very successful first grow with Jacks Hydro line 5-12-26.

3-2-1 - grams/gallons
I followed the program described here by Greengenes Garden on Youtube.

3 - grams of Jack’s Professional 5-12-26 Hydroponic mix
2 - grams of Calcium Nitrate
1 - gram of Epsom salt

I flipped over to flower five days ago and I'm now wondering if there are any mineral/salt or other nutrient additives that anyone would recommend? Flavor enhancers...Sugar!?

 

[Savage Henry]

Bump

Bump bump, toke toke toke!

Hello everyone,
I joined this forum to report that I am in the midst of a very successful first grow with Jacks Hydro line 5-12-26.

3-2-1 - grams/gallons
I followed the program described here by Greengenes Garden on Youtube.

3 - grams of Jack’s Professional 5-12-26 Hydroponic mix
2 - grams of Calcium Nitrate
1 - gram of Epsom salt

I flipped over to flower five days ago and I'm now wondering if there are any mineral/salt or other nutrient additives that anyone would recommend? Flavor enhancers...Sugar!?

What'd you decide to do? How'd it go?

I'm on the same page, just started running the jacks a few weeks ago, this video, the cheap alternatives thread, and the jacks back thread sold me on it.

@Capulator suggested dropping N a bit (20-30%) mid-flower should do the trick. There's also some posts regarding this deep in the aforementioned threads.

I'm torn on wheater to dial back on the jacks or the calnit or a little of both. Been reading that straight p/k boosters aren't ideal because of all the unnecessary P. But I have some mkp and map on the shelf just in case I decide to diy some Moab. thinking I should have picked up some potassium sulfate as well.

Several experienced people on here have discussed upping sulfur in flower to increase flavor. So maybe dropping back on the calnit by 0.5g/gal and upping the epsom to 1.5g or even 2.

@turbo14 posted some formulas he uses in flower as well, I should dig around and find them again.

 

[Duder]

So ive been using Jacks 3-2-1 recently in my DIY RDWC. The overall plant health is excellent and the quality is also outstanding. My only gripe thus far is leafy Meh sized buds. I had problems with keeping PH down until I realized my tap was awful at my current spot. So I got an RO system and this definitely helped . My first ladies using RO got about 20 days left and im crossing my fingers they keep swelling up. I have been using Bigbud and MOAB and recently started using MKP and potassium sulfate instead. At first doing to 1-1 of MKP to Potassium sulfate and recently more like 1/3 MKP to 2/3 Potassium sulfate and probably MOAB(or just MKP) in the last couple weeks in hopes ill get more bud then leaf when finished.
If this was my first time doing this I'd be super pumped with my results but when I was doing runs a couple years ago, I used H&G A&B, MultiZen and Bigbud weeks-2-7 or 8, then the hammerhead/MOAB combo during the last weeks. I was getting pepsi bottle sized buds that were as dense as corn on the cob, easily pushing over 1p per lady..
Any suggestions would be great! Maybe Ill try The posted recipe in this thread, I just don’t see how more N will give me the corn cob bud consistency im after. Any advice welcome! Thanks!

 

[GR33NL3AF]

So ive been using Jacks 3-2-1 recently in my DIY RDWC. The overall plant health is excellent and the quality is also outstanding. My only gripe thus far is leafy Meh sized buds. I had problems with keeping PH down until I realized my tap was awful at my current spot. So I got an RO system and this definitely helped . My first ladies using RO got about 20 days left and im crossing my fingers they keep swelling up. I have been using Bigbud and MOAB and recently started using MKP and potassium sulfate instead. At first doing to 1-1 of MKP to Potassium sulfate and recently more like 1/3 MKP to 2/3 Potassium sulfate and probably MOAB(or just MKP) in the last couple weeks in hopes ill get more bud then leaf when finished.
If this was my first time doing this I'd be super pumped with my results but when I was doing runs a couple years ago, I used H&G A&B, MultiZen and Bigbud weeks-2-7 or 8, then the hammerhead/MOAB combo during the last weeks. I was getting pepsi bottle sized buds that were as dense as corn on the cob, easily pushing over 1p per lady..
Any suggestions would be great! Maybe Ill try The posted recipe in this thread, I just don’t see how more N will give me the corn cob bud consistency im after. Any advice welcome! Thanks!

I would imagine quite the opposite happening. More N will severely delay bud development and if not adjusted in transition you're screwed.

 

[Duder]

I worded that a little funny. I definitely don’t want to and haven’t added more N in flower. I just noticed with plain 3-2-1 I get leafier buds than i want. They are really good and frosty just not as dense as I am used to.

 

[Savage Henry]

I am using the same formula, cap suggested dropping back on the calnit by 20% for the last 3-4 weeks. Should slow down the unwanted leaf growth.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

So ive been using Jacks 3-2-1 recently in my DIY RDWC. The overall plant health is excellent and the quality is also outstanding. My only gripe thus far is leafy Meh sized buds. I had problems with keeping PH down until I realized my tap was awful at my current spot. So I got an RO system and this definitely helped . My first ladies using RO got about 20 days left and im crossing my fingers they keep swelling up. I have been using Bigbud and MOAB and recently started using MKP and potassium sulfate instead. At first doing to 1-1 of MKP to Potassium sulfate and recently more like 1/3 MKP to 2/3 Potassium sulfate and probably MOAB(or just MKP) in the last couple weeks in hopes ill get more bud then leaf when finished.
If this was my first time doing this I'd be super pumped with my results but when I was doing runs a couple years ago, I used H&G A&B, MultiZen and Bigbud weeks-2-7 or 8, then the hammerhead/MOAB combo during the last weeks. I was getting pepsi bottle sized buds that were as dense as corn on the cob, easily pushing over 1p per lady..
Any suggestions would be great! Maybe Ill try The posted recipe in this thread, I just don’t see how more N will give me the corn cob bud consistency im after. Any advice welcome! Thanks!

Finishing up a round right now that was documented heavily from start to finish. Even though I used Phosphorus additives to the 3-2-1 formula I think the 5-12-26 is a huge issue and direct correlation to weak bud development, which i'm seeing.

 

[Savage Henry]

Finishing up a round right now that was documented heavily from start to finish. Even though I used Phosphorus additives to the 3-2-1 formula I think the 5-12-26 is a huge issue and direct correlation to weak bud development, which i'm seeing.

Got a link to the documented grow? I'd like to see what you mean by weak bud development.

 

[pugliese63]

Here's the formula I run and love it. It was given to me by a very good grower who doesn't post a lot these days, @dizzlekush. He pointed out that the 3-2-1 is not bad formula just not optimized.

Per gallon:
2.5. grams Jack's Hydro
2.5 grams Cal nitrate
.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate
or
.25 grams ammonium phosphate ACS Diabasic

This is the base formula he gave me. The ammonium sulfate the first three weeks. Around day 21 switch to the ammonium phosphate.

I supplement this formula with:
1 gram powdered fulvic acid
.25 grams Sea 90 (amazing spectrum of over 90 trace elements and micronutrients)
.25 grams Hydrolized whey protein powder (for amino acids)
3 ml bio weed kelp

The Hydrolized whey will definitely make a difference in flower size. Amino acids are very effective bloom boosters.

The great thing about Jack's is you can customize your formulation. This is just the formula I use. I have read in this thread other growers using various ratios with very good results.

On another note here's a link to a product I'm considering using in the near future. It's has Phosphite which seems to be getting some interests these days. The explanation on the difference in phosphorus and phosphite is very interesting. I'll report my experience with it in the near future.

https://customhydronutrients.com/ze...cPath=36_340&zenid=c5t4358r619j2dhuqcu4p4vhr3

This is a great thread and has a lot of salient info. Nice to see it still thriving.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Got a link to the documented grow? I'd like to see what you mean by weak bud development.

Nah, sorry Henry, I haven't posted on here in days. Just a personal log.

I did stop using Jack's for that particular room and switch to a simple MaxiBloom and everything is stacking hard.

 

[Duder]

.25 grams potassium silicate
.25 grams ammonium sulfate
or
.25 grams ammonium phosphate ACS Diabasic

Ammonium Sulfate ordered!

This is the base formula he gave me. The ammonium sulfate the first three weeks. Around day 21 switch to the ammonium phosphate.

I supplement this formula with:
1 gram powdered fulvic acid
.25 grams Sea 90 (amazing spectrum of over 90 trace elements and micronutrients)
.25 grams Hydrolized whey protein powder (for amino acids)
3 ml bio weed kelp

The Hydrolized whey will definitely make a difference in flower size. Amino acids are very effective bloom boosters.

Hydrolized whey protein powder? Ummm, Like the stuff I use when I go to the gym(or pretend to,ha!)

Multizen and Amino Treatment:
Botanicare Vitamino 3ml small plants 3ml large plants
Dyna Gro ProTekt Silica 1.25ml small plants 2.50ml large plants


Shooting Powder= Mother of all Blooms AKA MOAB 3/4-1tsp per 5 gallons while dropping base nutes 50%.

Botanicare Cal/Mag 3-5ml per gallon for small plants and 5ml for large plants.

Super Thrive 2 drops per gallon

I was thinking Of using something similar to whats listed here. I know Multi Zen definitely helped me get Thick trunks. If I can get my base down using what your using and a spin of this. Hopefully I can get the results I am used to. Instead of the small leafy yet really crystally dank nonsense I have been getting lately!

 

[Savage Henry]

I did stop using Jack's for that particular room and switch to a simple MaxiBloom and everything is stacking hard.

I see how there could be issues with stacking. I've been giving them a foliar 2x a week with either seagreen or straight kelp to avoid this. I'll throw some shots up on my grow log once they start doing their thing if you're interested: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/blueberry-bubblegum-dtw.80825/

@pugliese63 nice looking recipe, any chance you can post its elemental ppms?

 

[GR33NL3AF]

I see how there could be issues with stacking. I've been giving them a foliar 2x a week with either seagreen or straight kelp to avoid this. I'll throw some shots up on my grow log once they start doing their thing if you're interested: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/blueberry-bubblegum-dtw.80825/

@pugliese63 nice looking recipe, any chance you can post its elemental ppms?

Interesting, both of those products are simple catalysts... Why do you think this aids in the swell?

 

[Savage Henry]

I don't believe they aid in the swell, though I don't believe they hurt. I read some anecdotal evidence pointing at naturally occurring pgrs in kelp helping with stacking.

Edit: when I refer to stacking I mean keeping internodal spacing close during stretch.