keeping a dad....

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A

andytoker

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ok so i have a tiny set up and want to try and have a male plant around for some amateur breeding - are there any particular varieties that combine well with most things without dominating a cross? i know its hard to generalise about this kind of thing.

i notice afganis seem popular for many people for breeding
i have some maple leaf indica seeds - would that be a good start? or how about 'the pure' skunk#1 ? - skunk seems a popular thing to cross with too

thanks
a.
 
hubcap

hubcap

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this ones a tuff one farmer andytoker. for one reason. its really hard to find a potential father without first checking his offspring to see how they turned out. if you like the results of the F1 offspring, mommie and daddie are 'keepers'
there are some things that would hint to a potential good daddy, ie: the father producing visible trichomes in abundance. (you be surprised what some males can put out)... im sure some of the other farmers have photographic examples of such....but i digress.

i know in the past, we put all the males into a room. label them somehow and take cuts.
these male cuts are much easier to move around and utilize. also, it only takes one lil teenie grain of pollen to make one seed. there is quite an amount of pollen in say, the size of a us dime, so, large male plants, imo, arent necessary. if you wanna do some male testing, this would be the approach id recommend. its better than 'storing' pollen, and/or moving around full grown replicas, if you will.
keep the males small by taking cuts and CLEARLY label them and which plants his pollen touches. this is key. easy to lose track if many potentials are being tested.

(steps and precautions to doing this (controlled pollination) are posted. if u cant find them hit me back, and i, or the other farmers will go more in depth with that aspect)

all of that aside you'll find that there are a few strains out there that have their 'code' in many strains available today.
like the aforementioned skunk1s and afghanis of varying origin. skunk being the bulk giver and afghanis being the flowering time shorteners.

there are many good strains that make potentially great fathers. but, imo, you need to have some sort of goal in mind.

for example:
i wanna take my "X Sativa" and shorten the flower time a bit.....
then afghani would be a good choice.
the maple leaf indicas, in my limited exp with her, is shes got a bit of a pheno selection. so, depending on your goals, this might, or might not, be something youre looking for....dig?

lemme know if this is making sense so far...
i could talk for days.
 
purpleberry

purpleberry

633
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Since so little pollen is needed for small scale breeding, im guessing a small t5 or 100w hps would be fine for flowering the male?
I need to set a male only area badly. Right now im flowering a few males with my crop thats a week from being done and the males are 1 week into flowing and then Im putting in new plants hoping to dodge the pollen on both ends. lol Then try and dry and freeze the pollen for when i want it. to much bs
 
A

andytoker

62
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making perfect sense - thanks!

yes i think the mli is a hybrid of two pre-soviet afganis (that are quite similar) but from what ive read its pretty stable - i guess a little bit of variation, as you say, may make for a better choice of phenos.

i spose the other end of the scale would be a poly hybrid like Jack the ripper - that would mean much bigger variation in the offspring yes?

heres the rub - i can only flower 4 plants at a time, or i guess i could do 9 small sog style ones - my cab is just over 2' square!

i guess if you are looking for keeper mums then variation is good, but i think with my size restrictions that crossing stable strains will give more consistent results?

and please talk for as long as you can be bothered to - i have the thirst for knowledge!
 
hubcap

hubcap

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making perfect sense - thanks!

yes i think the mli is a hybrid of two pre-soviet afganis (that are quite similar) but from what ive read its pretty stable - i guess a little bit of variation, as you say, may make for a better choice of phenos.

this might sound odd, farmer andy, but, ive come across what ive felt pretty sativa looking plants in the MLIs. but this grow i refer to was quite a few years back.
they are finished in reasonable time, so the influence isnt THAT overpowering, no. again, iMe.....without digressing...

as i understand it, and from the pics ive seen of the "weed fields of afghanistan" is that the western persons traditional view of an indica, is short, squat, with big fat leaves, ....and this, simply, isnt the case in their homeland. sure there are some that fit that bill. but some other indicas, from higher elevations, tend to really look sativa.....tall lanky growth with thinner looking leaves. so, including myself, we tend to get lost in thinking indicas HAVE to be short squat and fat leaved. and we shouldnt. and after reading your statement of the MLIs being a variety of "pre invasion"afghan indica cultivars adds some water, for me, to that bucket, if you will..





i spose the other end of the scale would be a poly hybrid like Jack the ripper - that would mean much bigger variation in the offspring yes?

in essence, sure. but if its pheno hunting you wanna do, might i recommend, jack herer, or NL5/Haze?

heres the rub - i can only flower 4 plants at a time, or i guess i could do 9 small sog style ones - my cab is just over 2' square!

i guess if you are looking for keeper mums then variation is good, but i think with my size restrictions that crossing stable strains will give more consistent results?

and please talk for as long as you can be bothered to - i have the thirst for knowledge!

generally speaking, yeah. if you have "stable" parents, then the offspring shouldnt show as much variation as a result from an open pollination using various parents. but variations will show...
in a smaller style cabinet, yes, i would look for a good "stable" stock. like you mentioned, the pure is a good choice. but there are many others.
LUI/Herijuana/Deep Chunk/PineTarKush/C99/Skunk1/the list really goes on and on without some sort of final goal in mind.....

-what strain are you using for a mother and whats your overall goal?
stability? uniformity? yields? finishing time? flavor? etc etc...

i think youve got the basic understanding of it all right?

-pick a mom
-have a goal in mind
-pick/take cuts of potential daddies
-do the nasty after labeling them
-grow the offspring and pick the winning papa
 
hubcap

hubcap

1,189
48
Since so little pollen is needed for small scale breeding, im guessing a small t5 or 100w hps would be fine for flowering the male?
I need to set a male only area badly. Right now im flowering a few males with my crop thats a week from being done and the males are 1 week into flowing and then Im putting in new plants hoping to dodge the pollen on both ends. lol Then try and dry and freeze the pollen for when i want it. to much bs

yep. 100-150W will work fine. especially if theyre small. chit...just enough to keep em alive is really all ya need. lol.
 
Z

Zoolander

Premium Member
Supporter
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I flowered 4 males under a 2 bulb 24 inch T5 set and got a ton of pollen with this small light , like HC said man a little pollen goes a long ways:rasta:
 
D

diesel

62
6
Wow ! what an informative thread!
I threw some males i kept in veg into my flowering room and the flowers look like they are gonna bust soon. I was gonna grab my pollen by using robert clarke's method as mentioned in the marijuana botany book.

is the best way to dry it now and collect that way or to use the catching method by wrapping the stems with baking paper and collecting that way ?

Also do the pro farmers out there think that males that show their pollen fast are indictave of a faster finisher pheno. So for example if i found a similar size female of the same type that was a fast finisher it should be the same pheno?

Does that make sense or have i had too much smoke :P

respect and peace.. this is great info !
 
hubcap

hubcap

1,189
48
I threw some males i kept in veg into my flowering room and the flowers look like they are gonna bust soon. I was gonna grab my pollen by using robert clarke's method as mentioned in the marijuana botany book.

is the best way to dry it now and collect that way or to use the catching method by wrapping the stems with baking paper and collecting that way ?

there really isnt a 'best' way. just the best for your situation. that being said, it sounds like you have larger male plants?
if thats the case remove them from the grow room, obviously, and, id, place a brown paper bag over each branch and shake. after each plant is harvested, fold over the bags of pollen and label them accordingly. rinse and repeat with all your males being sure to correctly label each bag of pollen that corresponds with the correct donator dad. remove/cull/kill males if no more use is planned for them. wet them down if their remains will be anywhere near your grow.

tomorrow...pollinate your girls,
.....using the same bag method...
slipping each bag of pollen over the female branches and shaking. keeping in mind to remove the females from the grow room and pollinating them one at a time.....
. i prefer that way, for total control, but, you might prefer to get em all knocked up in one shot. your call. some prefer dipping a paint brush into the bag of pollen and doing it that way. there really is no wrong way, as long as its controlled and pollen wont be flying everywhere.
this way youll ensure that you KNOW what genetic information is in your seed stock. theres no guessing or wating to grow them out to see. seems like a simple step, and it is, but i cant stress accurate labeling enough.






Also do the pro farmers out there think that males that show their pollen fast are indictave of a faster finisher pheno. So for example if i found a similar size female of the same type that was a fast finisher it should be the same pheno?

Does that make sense or have i had too much smoke :P

respect and peace.. this is great info !

sometimes, yes. males that show pollen fast, CAN, make a cross finish a bit faster. but this is NOT always the case, and is highly, but, not soley, dependant on the parentals used. confused yet? lol. sort of like males that show purple flowers...while some of the kids will show this trait, the majority, in the first generation, will not. further selections are needed to reinforce the purpling trait.

i think your second question is this:

'If I used a fast flowering male to make seed, and those seeds are finishing fast...is that because of my father selection?'

in VERY short terms....not necessarily, but, possibly. again different factors determine the end results....


one could type for months....
lemme see if i can find a GOOD, and comprehensive breeding guide to cut and paste for you all.(is there not one here already????) there are some good ones out there, but, without a basic understanding of genetics and how it all relates to MJ growing, its hard to give definitive answers to the questions that are sure to follow after weve got a good grasp of whats posted above.........

hang tight and ill see if i can find some good reading materiale....
 
A

andytoker

62
8
generally speaking, yeah. if you have "stable" parents, then the offspring shouldnt show as much variation as a result from an open pollination using various parents. but variations will show...
in a smaller style cabinet, yes, i would look for a good "stable" stock. like you mentioned, the pure is a good choice. but there are many others.
LUI/Herijuana/Deep Chunk/PineTarKush/C99/Skunk1/the list really goes on and on without some sort of final goal in mind.....

-what strain are you using for a mother and whats your overall goal?
stability? uniformity? yields? finishing time? flavor? etc etc...

i think youve got the basic understanding of it all right?

-pick a mom
-have a goal in mind
-pick/take cuts of potential daddies
-do the nasty after labeling them
-grow the offspring and pick the winning papa

hubcap - thanks once again - i guess my goal is just to try and have as much variety as possible and to have seeds to keep for a rainy day and swap with others.

the only mum i have at present is a decent blueberry that is both vigorous, high yielding and stable (lucky)
but, as you suggested, my intention is to keep a cutting of everything i grow and then i have the option of keeping a mum if i particularly like the strain.

as for collecting pollen, i would be scared to do that near my grow, but i read method that involved taking a stem off the male, putting a hole in a plastic bear cup and poking the stem through, and then putting this bear cup in a regular cup of water so the stem is sitting in the water. at most times of year you can then collect pollen in the bottom of the beer cup by keeping the whole thing on the windowledge - that is the method i will try first i think.
i guess this is also a way which you could collect pollen from other males that are culled - just take a stem first and keep the pollen.

am i right in saying that pollen will keep for a few months in the freezer

it seems crazy that we dont know for sure if positive traits such as early flowering in males are passed on to females! this is what led me to ask the question about whether particular strains make good all-round males.

ps, when you said "grow the offspring and pick the winning papa" - did you mean mum???
 
Billygoat

Billygoat

1,235
63
One thing I will add. Since everyone pretty much covered everything in great detail. If and when you find a father plant. Please, keep him under 24 hour constant light. I've seen rooms dusted from people keeping their father plant under 18 hour lighting and he still produced pollen. I know, it takes a while for a male to produce pollen, but if your a busy person and you forget to keep a close eye on him. There still is a chance he will produce pollen.

Like others have already posted. It only takes a very small amount of pollen to produce seeds, so your don't want to seed a crop that isn't for seed production. Lots of great info already posted. That's what i like about the farm. Everyone pulling together to help each other out.

Good luck with your project and let us know how it turns out.
Take care,
BG
 
F

forehead

198
0
Great thread! killer Info Hubcap...I think you hit on the main difference between seedmaking and an actual breeding program,having a stated goal.without that your simply making beans which is cool but your workin against the math at that point.
as far as the topic of this thread,AT, i would add that for your goals you might want to consider crossing two seperate proven Inbred lines (IBL)Such as Afhgan and Durban ,or dozens of others,to create F1 hybrids.This will offer the homebreeber two big things.First,unifomity and pretty good chance of predictable offsping from both lines and second youll get hybrid vigor from the crossing of two stable unrelated lines(BB will be good here IMO).meaning your seeds will almost definetly be strong ,healthy and uniform.
 
hubcap

hubcap

1,189
48
still working on those links, but, in the meantime, youve got a few more questions, so lets address those, while im here:




- i guess my goal is just to try and have as much variety as possible and to have seeds to keep for a rainy day and swap with others.

the only mum i have at present is a decent blueberry that is both vigorous, high yielding and stable (lucky)
but, as you suggested, my intention is to keep a cutting of everything i grow and then i have the option of keeping a mum if i particularly like the strain.

if youre not really after any kind of stability and actually prefer some range of phenos (im like that too) than just pick a dad from a strain that you KNOW has a good phenotypical range to choose from...some examples:....ssh....nl5/haze....jack herer.....(all tried and true performers. well tested by farmers)
you know, the stuff KNOWN to have great phenotypes to pick from.
imo, the resulting seeds from a merger of BB and a dad from any one of those strains would be a great place, imo, to start making personal seed stock. but, understand not every plant grown from the homemade stock will be stellar specimens....variations will occur, of course. just let it be known.....they all wont be identical, and, some will even make you wonder where/who's loins it came from, dig? lol. "loins."

keeping a mom is great for this reason:
-you can reinforce the traits you prefer-
if youre keeping a mum you know what shes like and you probably like her.
so, when her offspring are grown out, you can mate your best examples of that generation back to mum, backing up her imprint on that generation, creating a 3rd generation with the reinforced traits from mummy.. terms vary thru the industry, but its all a form of "back crossing" or "inbreeding"..... be it a blue horse or yellow, its still a horse, dig? no matter the color or name.
moving on.....





as for collecting pollen, i would be scared to do that near my grow, but i read method that involved taking a stem off the male, putting a hole in a plastic bear cup and poking the stem through, and then putting this bear cup in a regular cup of water so the stem is sitting in the water. at most times of year you can then collect pollen in the bottom of the beer cup by keeping the whole thing on the windowledge - that is the method i will try first i think.
i guess this is also a way which you could collect pollen from other males that are culled - just take a stem first and keep the pollen.


id say whatever method you feel comfortable using, go for it. it really isnt rocket science. think of it as trying to collect dust without stirring any of it up enough to float in the air.....that why i recommended the paper bag method. its a controlled pollen release in a somewhat contained enviornment. pollen can travel MILES very easily so making it, say, thru as house is no effort at all. if theres a draft or breeze...it can and prolly will move. relative humidity can control this somewhat but thats a game for another given sunday....


some people chop it at the base, wrap it in newspaper and dry it that way and shake it out when its dried...
method of your comfort level is what i would recommend.

am i right in saying that pollen will keep for a few months in the freezer

i never store it, but, trusted farmers and established breeders recommend the practice, so, id say "yes. a couple months of dry, frozen storage" would be fine. but theres prolly a few tricks of the trade as far as collection and processing when plannin on deep freezing. id ask around a bit for clues before attempting....



it seems crazy that we dont know for sure if positive traits such as early flowering in males are passed on to females!
do you know how a humans gonna look and act before its born? even knowing the parents for many years?
only one, flawless way, to find out, mate. one can make guesses and get it right on some occasions, but, like stated, "one wont know 'til they grow!"



ps, when you said "grow the offspring and pick the winning papa" - did you mean mum???
nope.
if you grow out the seeds and the final smoke is excellent, than the papa, as well as the mum, are winners. usually, if the smoke is weak, or bad, its because of a bad papa selection, for, most mothers wont really ruin a cross, or make it weaker, for, thats what most worked pot today is....a selection for good smokeable mothers....
did that make sense??



farmers forehead and billygoat, above me, bring up good points as well, farmer andy.
absorb what theyre trying to tell you in their posts.

i know this can get really confusing, but, my advice, is try to keep it as simple minded as possible and look at things as a perspective and not so much a micro manager. for, to get seedstock, of stability and exactly what you want, would take numbers in the "fields of it" catagory......one, working at home, needs to make the learning curve as minimal as possible, cuz, its simply not feasible to run those numbers under a shingled roof.
 
A

andytoker

62
8
still working on those links, but, in the meantime, youve got a few more questions, so lets address those, while im here:
nope.
if you grow out the seeds and the final smoke is excellent, than the papa, as well as the mum, are winners. usually, if the smoke is weak, or bad, its because of a bad papa selection, for, most mothers wont really ruin a cross, or make it weaker, for, thats what most worked pot today is....a selection for good smokeable mothers....
did that make sense??

gotcha - the good female is the known quantity and the male is the unknown quantity - so if the smoke is bad it's likely to be the male at fault - yep i've got that bit nailed down now :)
 
A

andytoker

62
8
as far as the topic of this thread,AT, i would add that for your goals you might want to consider crossing two seperate proven Inbred lines (IBL)Such as Afhgan and Durban ,or dozens of others,to create F1 hybrids.This will offer the homebreeber two big things.First,unifomity and pretty good chance of predictable offsping from both lines and second youll get hybrid vigor from the crossing of two stable unrelated lines(BB will be good here IMO).meaning your seeds will almost definetly be strong ,healthy and uniform.

forehead - thanks - thats pretty much where the plan started and it seems that, with the numbers i have to work with, that f1s from stable stock are my best bet- especially for swaps or keeping for a rainy day.

Billygoat - that's good advice - i do keep my mum 'closet' lights on 24/7 so i will keep it that way if i have a dad too
 
F

forehead

198
0
Hope it works out for ya.let us know what you do.
That is a good tip BG i like to start all beans on 24 hr light until they indicate sex,cuz some genetics start to flower with any darkness,esp males.
 
D

diesel

62
6
wicked now i know more !! ace

your all very generous with your keyboards

I found a few seeds in my amensia mum that i pollainted accidently with an la confidential dad. hehe :P theres my first go.

At the moment im just trying to establish methods and try and understand more about seed production. e.g. Do growers change their nutrient or grow schedules if they are looking for quality seeds...

in any case im probably hogging another mans thread !

Peace
 
G

guerilla family

Guest
Great thread fellas.. Keep the info flowing. Lots to be learned by all! Im like a sponge today :)

GFam
 
D

diesel

62
6
keep it coming hubcap love to read those threads... gonna start some pollen dusting soon
 

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