Seamaiden said:

You cannot accurately measure ppm's (EC/uS) of organic compounds and/or molecules. You can accurately measure pH, but not the teas.

If you're re-inoculating, that's good, but in my opinion it's not best. Bacteria make a home for themselves, and right now I'm thinking about how it goes with aquaria, the succession of bacteria that occurs (nitrifying Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter spp, which also happen to be the same genuses of nitrifiers in soil), how those bacteria require a surface to attach to before they can even consider eating, let alone shitting. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I travel I stop having BMs, and so do the bacteria.

Obviously, there's other life you're culturing there, too. But without being able to directly assay both media and feed samples to compare against, it's a lot of guessing on my part.

Click to expand...

I dunno. I just had the best results ever. The tea guys recommend weekly applications, so I am about doubling that.

I wish I had a microscope.

I could crap on the corner of Bourbon and Canal on Mardi Gras day! With ZERO issues.....my wife, now she would be in the boat with you and the bacteria....lol....

Whats REALLY cool is that I was on a pheno search this last run. You ready?.....36 different strains/pheno's. All in the same soil....all being fed the same. And STILL had the heaviest return I have ever had. The buffering the herd provides is AMAZING. I am down to three contenders in my next round. All 3 did over 2 p's per candle!!...

not the perfect environment to judge ALL these strains, I know. But I went heavy on nutes to find the heartiest strain/pheno. I fed these girls HEAVILY...over 2000 ppms before adding tea. With the herd....they LOVED it.

I am having a hard time convincing myself that I should change from adding tea at EVERY feeding .....to alternating nutes and teas....like the tea guys (biodiversity dudes) suggest....I just want to repeat the results I just had.

Once I narrow it down to one, i think I will do some side by sides and observe results. Having different nute schedules can turn into brain damage. As long as I have 3 similar feeders, I wont do much individual tweaking. One is a lighter feeder than the other 2. Thats as far into a different nute regime as I wanna get on this next run.


Whadaya think?

I think that you've well demonstrated how different plants (strains in this case) can push their environment to suit their needs precisely because you grew them in organic soil.

As for the other, I'm not sure, but really, why not give it a try? I think it would work out just fine and you'd save yourself the whole tea-making trouble by half.

Just remember that the ppm's you're reading are far from accurate measures of nutrient molecules in solution. I've also tried hydrometers, to measure specific gravity, but the solution needs to be much more dense to really get a reading.

I'm planning on getting this Celestron, but right now I've got to make absolutely certain I have enough cash for the compost, soil, boards for making the raised beds, and dripper system we'll need to put in place before I get the 'scope. I also don't know that a 'scope would be very useful without a means by which to ID microbes. All my microbe ID books are for fish stuff.

FYI:

For identifying microbes

Nice thread, great info. thanks everybody.
I just started using EM-1 for my microbes instead of guessing on the teas.
I also plan on getting thier ocean solution.
The EM-1 can be "activated" to make 20x more. Great deal, you can drink this stuff for health/digestive reasons.

From what I've read the level of disolved oxygen needed to properly brew an aact is not easily achieved without a heavy duty pump. So for most people without a good brewer we are not even starting enough life to worry about killing it. IMO

420somehow said:

Nice thread, great info. thanks everybody.
I just started using EM-1 for my microbes instead of guessing on the teas.
I also plan on getting thier ocean solution.
The EM-1 can be "activated" to make 20x more. Great deal, you can drink this stuff for health/digestive reasons.

From what I've read the level of disolved oxygen needed to properly brew an aact is not easily achieved without a heavy duty pump. So for most people without a good brewer we are not even starting enough life to worry about killing it. IMO

Click to expand...

I dont think you need a big blower to get results.

I can SMELL mine and tell its alive.

From what I have read is that the way chem ferts kill microbes is this: The population of microbes goes crazy eating the ferts , reproducing faster than normal and consuming all food in the soil, they then starve to death. This is opposed to the slower symbiotic relationship they have with the plants. This is why farmers let fields go fallow to recover.
I have a couple of hundred bucks of ferts left over from hydro and used Koolbloom at 1/2'strength once in week 5 growing Pure Kush. Next watering was ACT mixed with diotomic hummus. Noticeable increase in yield.

From what I have read fertilizers are salts and they suck the water out of the bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes. Killing them.

But microbes produce salts that the plants take up right? Isn't that how it works, it doesn't matter to the plant how they get the salts, whether it's in a pure form or from the bacteria. If salts killed the bacteria, then their own waste would kill them no? Chem ferts are artificial versions of the salts the microbes make. I've read that microbes are just like people. When the population outnumbers the food supply, everything gets destroyed.

My plants flourished with a little dose of ferts. I grow roses , oranges and perennials too. I only top dress outside... compost from my composter, cardboard, grass clippings, chicken manure. When I grew hydro, I always poured the waste from my rez in the outside garden. I rotated between different sides of my home. They loved it, the soil was still rich and I have the white threads everywhere. But putting ferts in the earth is a bit different than a 3 gallon pot. But then , adding ACT and Diotomic Hummus should replace any lost microbes and also help break the salts down quick.
Is that illogic? That's why we do weekly or biweekly ACT tea applications right?

Again, this is just my experience. I always go by my experience and its results. I've had plenty of failures too.

It took about 4-5 years of top dressing to turn my clay soil into something good. Now going into year 10, it's pretty great. I just feed with fish emulsion a few times a year and top dress. It took a lot longer to get results, but in the end it's a lot less maintenance. Top dressing keeps moisture in the soil and allows the slow breakdown. Worms galore and you don't have to water so much because the earth holds the moisture. It needs to be at least a foot thick which takes a long time.

Here's another question. How important is it to cover the top of the pot growing organically indoors? Does a cover allow bacteria to grow better the same way a thick layer of compost does outside?

Here we go from Blaze at TCC in response to a looong post from a book on ACT. Great thread there on compost teas. The post details his experience of using small amounts of salt based ferts with ACT and also the dilution ration of ACT.

Well, it was nothing too major; like I was saying I think this is a very good book over all and I think it's great you took the time to post it up for everyone to read.

I'm not sure if it was in the sections you posted (honestly I didn't have time to re-read it all) but some of the info on acceptable ppm of N seemed off. If I remember right the book claims that you can't N above 7 ppm, which it appears is not correct. Even if you follow her recipes exactly you always end up with more than 7 ppm N. I've tested my batches several times with an N meter and I usually end up somewhere around 70 ppm using her recipes, before diluting it. There is still good microbial activity at these levels, and I've seen the benefits from the ACT on my plants, so obviously you can brew ACT at more than 7 ppm N.

I have now seen several people use ACT in conjunction with low amounts of synthetic fertilizer and organic liquid fertilizers with great success, something that Inghram seems to claim is impossible. Too much mineral fertilizers will have a negative effect, and I've seen this myself, but to say that you cannot use any mineral fertilizer of any kind with ACT is just not true. Many microbes do in fact feed on those minerals. It is sort of like how many claim that any amount urea or ammonium N is bad. In large doses, or if you use it regularly, yeah, it's nasty stuff, BUT there are soil organisms that feed of it, as well as produce it, so if you have active soil biology, you do indeed have urea and ammonium in your soil. Both are part of the N cycle and more and more I am thinking that having a balance of nitrate, ammonium, and urea is probably the way to go.

Also I think the dilution and application rates tend to be very low, at least for growing cannabis. I forget if it was this book or the other one of hers I have that recommends a 50-1 dilution for hydro or drip irrigation, and this is way to diluted IMO. Most other sources tend to recommend somewhere in the range of a 3-1 or 10-1 ratio. I've been doing a 3-1 or a 5-1 ratio depending on how far I need to stretch my ACT.

Those are the two main points that come to mind. Overall the info in the book is solid; just some of the smaller details may not be correct. You need to remember that they theory and the practical application may not always be one and the same, and sometimes I think that a few of Ingrhams theories do not always hold up in real world applications.

Here's some good info geared toward turf grass but should be exactly the same for most plants.
[location for below]

2. APPLYING QUICK ACTING WATER-SOLUBLE FERTILIZERS. Quick acting fertilizers are primarily formulated with water-soluble nutrient salts. The grass quickly absorbs these water soluble salt fertilizer nutrient elements. Salt concentration increases within the grass. Higher levels within the plant cells, especially during drought and periods of stress, diminish the ability of the plant to function naturally and effectively. Higher levels of salt require more water intake, to keep the salt in diluted solutions. Thus, water requirements increase and the plant functions decrease, allowing the plant to become more susceptible to damage from drought.


3. NORMAL PLANT OSMOSIS REACTIONS ARE HAZZARDLY REVERSED. The organic salts within the turf grass cells are, under normal natural prairie conditions, of higher concentration within the plant than the salt content within the soil. The higher salt level within the plant attracts and pulls water and other materials through the cell walls into the plant. This natural, and important reaction, which occurs and is required to occur all of the time, is called OSMOSIS. The plant does not have any pump or means of drawing water and materials into it’s root system, OSMOSIS, a natural system, is the only way water and raw materials can be absorbed and transported within the plant.


When salts within the soil increase to levels that are of higher concentration than the salts within the plant cells, the soil then has the ability to pull water and ingredients from the plant. This reverse reaction, called REVERSE OSMOSIS, a very negative occurrence. When this reverse osmosis occurs during a drought, or under conditions of stress, the plant loses water extremely fast, the cells become dehydrated, the plant withers and weakens most quickly to become very susceptible to disease, insects, and other adversities. REVERSE OSMOSIS is stimulated to occur, (explode) when “salty” chemical fertilizers, micronutrients, and even pesticides are applied. The higher the soil salt content, the more turf grass damage.


4. SALTS KILL GRASS ROOTS AND ESSENTIAL SOIL MICROORGANISMS.


As the salt concentration increases in the soil, the first life forms to be killed are the beneficial soil microbes. When the concentration of salts in the soil become higher than the salts within the soil microbe’s bodies, the microbes are quickly killed. The negative effects of their quick death are not usually noticed until several days or weeks afterwards when their by-product enzymes, etc. are not available for grass root absorption. The grass begins to weaken and becomes most susceptible to invasions of disease, insects, weeds and other adversities.


5. AGRICULTURAL LAW: Every increase of 10 degrees F, doubles the rate of reaction.


If, for instance, one ounce of chemical is applied to 1,000 sq. ft. of soil in the early morning when the soil temperature is say 70 degrees F. If the soil warms to 80 degrees by 11:00 a.m., the rate of chemical reaction will double, or become the equivalent having two ounces of chemical initially applied. When the soil temperature rises to 90 degrees by 2:00 p.m., the rate of reaction will double again to become the equivalent of having initially four ounces of chemical initially applied. This type of multiplying reactions continue and cause rapid negative reactions within the soil as well as within the plant, especially in the South where soil temperatures are know to increase to excesses of 100 degrees plus by the time the late afternoon arrives. Frequently these reactions are the cause of multiple problems and turf grass deaths in the South, especially during high temperature and drought conditions. Care must always be taken when applying any chemicals during the hot days of summer. NOTE: This form of reactions does not occur with the application of most natural substances.


6. SOIL SALT LEVELS AUTOMATICALLY RISE AND INCREASE DURING HOT, DRY WEATHER, TO CAUSE DAMAGE TO TURF GRASS.


During the cool, wet weather of fall, winter and spring, water usually dissolves, and flushes surface salts to lower levels in the soil where they usually can accumulate in large quantities.


As the weather becomes warmer, the soil dries out at the surface. As the soil surface dries, subsurface water is attracted to the surface. As this water, saturated with salts, begins to rise it brings dissolved salts to the surface to increase the soils salt content and to change the soil into becoming more hazardous to turf grass and associated life forms.


7. SOIL MICROORGANISMS ARE CRITICALLY ESSENTIAL FOR GROWING IDEAL TURF GRASS.


Microscopic life forms, including many varieties and species of bacteria, yeast, molds, fungi, virus, protozoa, algae and others live in the soil. Some require free air, they are called the AEROBIC microbes. They absorb Oxygen and release carbon dioxide and produce many forms of enzymes, hormones and organic compounds. These compounds are used by other microbes (as a source of food energy) and by plants (as a source of raw materials necessary for the plant to use as required).


Other soil microbes can only live under wet, soggy, compact conditions without free air, they are called the ANAEROBIC microbes. They obtain their oxygen and other gases from living and dead plants and/or microorganisms. Characteristically, some can absorb carbon from their food source, obtain oxygen and other gases from the food and can release oxygen. However, the hazardous anaerobic microorganisms release carbon monoxide and methane gas. These gases kill grass roots and desirable microorganisms,


There are the “Good and Bad” microbes. The “Good” ones produce enzymes, hormones, and organics. These are vital substances are continually absorbed by grass roots, translocated to other plant areas to use in their life building production processes. These processes manufacture various substances that develop essential characteristics, such as: building immunity and defense systems, stimulating healing, warding off attacks of pestilence, developing aggressive, dominant growth of the species, withstanding wear/tear, droughts, floods and other adversities as well as providing special natural characteristics ideal for golf. Some of the “Good Guys” are capable of attacking and killing the “Bad Guys” as well as releasing substances to prevent attacks of other plants, pathogenic and undesirable microbes. Most provide services that improve the soil physically, chemically, biologically and environmentally as well as many other benefits too numerous to mention at this time.


The “Bad” microbes live under conditions that cannot be tolerated by the “Good” microbes. Some directly attack and kill the “Good Guys”. Others release substances and gases that weaken and kill the desirable grasses and essential beneficial microbes associated with the growth of desirable microbes associated with strong aggressive turf grass growth. These undesirable microorganism release substances that are required by other plants and life forms to live and eventually weaken the grass and stimulate other life forms and plants to invade and eventually smother and kill the desirable grass (Poa annua, Crabgrass, and several other weeds).


In the past, the management of turf grasses has dealt with supplying nutrients (water-soluble salt forms, highly reactive chelates, unnatural chemical and organics to grow and control turf as effectively as possible.


The demand has always been to eliminate the attack of pests, that had become known to contribute the most in causing destruction and weakening to the desirable grasses.


Chemical companies, universities, pharmaceutical and many other firms and individuals have done a splendid job of researching and developing many forms of killing materials to effectively kill and eliminate active forms of disease, insects, weeds, and other parasites.


The continual use, misuse, and unknown side reactions of these synthetic, unnatural materials, at times, have the ability to either increase their reactivity as the soil heats up to increase their range of kill, which can include the desirable life forms. Other types of reactions can occur when these ingredients build up in the soil to create other types of reactions, develop other forms of products and provide new, unnatural and, at times, highly toxic and/or undesirable reactions.


Bare in mind, we do not condemn these products or their use in controlling pests. They work faster and better than many of the available natural controls. Under most epidemic attacks, they must be used to save the grass quickly. However, none have been proven to produce a more permenant, long lasting control. These killers must be used whenever targeted pests attack and/or some must be used frequently and continuously as a means of prevention. And, frankly, under severe conditions, they must be continually used to provide necessary controls that they, and only they can effectively provide.

ncga said:

Ledsled

Dead is not useless

In 2009 I started using what I THOUGHT was ACT well in 2010 I bought a dissolved oxygen meter. I found out quickly that my method had way below the recommended dissolved oxygen it. I was amazed it had worked in the past, No with a good scope and meter the ACT really worked it's magic. But I was still amazed at how well dead tea worked.

nc

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing.
I used the dead tea with calcarb in it on half of a tree. that half exploded with new growth.

this thread gets better and better

Joker, I'm not so sure that the statement regarding chem salt ferts being the same (equivalent? molecular structure) as what microbes poop is correct. I'm also wondering about how chem salt ferts might change osmotic pressure on the cellular level of soil microbes and macrobes, think this might play a significant role in why soil flora/fauna numbers go down with too strong applications of such.

OK....here is a common sense question. I dont understand the biology totally.

If chem salts kill all the microbial life, how can teas fix over fertilized yards or fields?

It seems there is a point that the microbes win out...over the salts. Where and when I will get the best bang for my buck is the $60,000 question. Or does it even really matter that much if I feed teas with every feeding?

I am still in my "awe" phase over what teas did for me.

Untill I get a scope I think I am gonna go with the overkill thing.

Buddy Hemphill said:

If chem salts kill all the microbial life, how can teas fix over fertilized yards or fields?

Click to expand...

By adding back the microbes that were killed off.
But you have to have organic material for the microbes to work on.
That's why organic lawncare companies will spread compost then hit it with an AACT. Then maintain with organic ferts, AACT and microbe food.

That's great that you found something to give you a boost in yield. It's all about what works for each person.
Good luck.

mrb

Joker, I'm not so sure that the statement regarding chem salt ferts being the same (equivalent? molecular structure) as what microbes poop is correct. I'm also wondering about how chem salt ferts might change osmotic pressure on the cellular level of soil microbes and macrobes, think this might play a significant role in why soil flora/fauna numbers go down with too strong applications of such.

That's the info I read at the Cabana. That salt ferts are just synthetic versions of what occurs naturally and to the plants it makes no difference. I think what is trying to be said that while they are good for the plant, they are bad for the soil.

That post by Mr. Bong states it clearly.

I just did a side by side, growing Pure Kush which is a crappy yielder to begin with. I've been doing weekly ACT based on Vons recipe. I treated one row with a single 1/2 dose of Koolbloom powder in week 5. Noticeable difference in yield vs the untreated ACT only plants. Two weeks after the treatment, plants showed a slight leaf tip burn, which the untreated plants did not show.
Increased smell as well. Another week until harvest, so the taste test will show. I'm doing the Pepsi Challenge with Blueberry as well. Organic vs. Soil for taste.

My home had poor clay soil and from what I gather, had not been cared well for since 1968. It takes a lot of compost to cover everything and it took me years to cover the entire property. I did not know about ACT or Mycchos until recently, but did find the white fungal threads under the areas with at least 6-12 inches of mulch.

So again , I ask, does putting a cover on the top of your indoor pots help the microbes in the same was as a heavy mulch cover does.

Hey Leadsled. I love you too. MUAH! I'm not going away.

The Joker said:

So again , I ask, does putting a cover on the top of your indoor pots help the microbes in the same was as a heavy mulch cover does.

Click to expand...

Also interested in knowing this. Thanks.

If the cover is mulch, compost or earthworm castings then, yes.

Udyana Peace said:

Sure - why not?

To make 4 gallons of a mixture that you would want to use 1/4 cup (2 oz) to 1 gallon of water. That's an important number as things progress.

1 lb. of organic rosemary branches and remove the individual leaves from the branches. This is an important step.

Take the rosemary leaves and put into a food processor with an equal amount of pure water and puree this mess. Add 2 each habanero chilis, 10 cloves of garlic (leave the skin on) and an equal amount of fresh ginger (very important component)

Once you have this mess pureed place into a 5-gallon paint bucket and fill with 4 gallons of water. Add pureed mint (however you get there) and try to get at least 3 cups of mint puree - go with diversity, IMHO

Add 1 tablespoon of live yogurt (read the label) and any/all of the following at 1/2 teaspoon:

Miso - organic
Vinegar - organic
Mesu - organic
Beer - organic
Kefir - organic

You'll also want to add a carbohydrate source - I prefer and use palm sugar as it's minimally processed. Easily sourced at Southeast Asian markets - especially Vietnamese and Thai markets.

You MUST use organic sources because conventional/transitional forms will always contain preservatives which will arrest this process.

Let this mess/mixture ferment down to < 3.5 pH - lower is even better. Once you hit your acidic numbers strain the plant material from the liquid and toss into your worm bin or compost pile.

With the liquid apply as a foliar spray using 2 oz. (i.e. 1/4 cup) to 1 gallon of water and hit it every 3 days until you have the mites arrested and killed. Follow up with weekly applications of either neem or karanja oil at the prescribed rates.

Result? End of mites, powdery mildew, aphids, white flies, gnats, et al.

HTH

UP

Click to expand...

:inlove:nerd:wazzup::rock
thats a straight up dank recipe

Udyana Peace, do you ever use the recipe you described on page 2 as a soil drench? Mostly I am curious if recipe would act as any control on root aphids or fungus gnats or what have you.