Killing Microbial Life

Blaze · Aug 4, 2011

Wow, how the heck did I miss this awesome thread? I was even quoted in it, and everything!

Seamaiden brings up some good points too. Honestly Sea I am not 100% sure that chem salt ferts being the same as what microbes poop is correct either. All I was saying is that you CAN use a small amount of chem ferts at low dilution with ACT, contrary to what many claim. I was also trying to point out that the statements made by many organic growers about how you can never use ammonium N when growing organically is not correct. However I cannot say for sure if, for example, the ammonium in the organic blood meal I use would be the same as the ammonium in say Grow More. I would guess they are different on the molecular level simply because ones is made from petroleum and one is made from animal blood but I do not know enough about chemistry to know if that is really true.

A lot of the info I got in regards high N organic inputs comes from a CCOF conference I went to last summer. The guy who did the workshop on organic N had a PhD in soil science and has spent many years researching the subject. They had found that the most productive soils were the ones with a balance of uric, ammonical and nitrate Nitrogen. Of course if you have good active soil biology, all you should have to add is organic N and the soil biology will break it down into other forms. The idea that you cannot use uric or ammonical N in organic gardening is very much a "grower" idea from what I have seen. You tell that to an organic farmer and they will look at you like your at nuts!

FYI the plants I did with an organic 12-0-0 blood meal in their soil prep this year are kicking ass, I don't get why so many people are against using it! It is a cheap, renewable, organic source of N that is a by-product of another industry - how much more organic can you get? Plus I know Seamaiden has been using uric N with good results too, right?

motherlode · Aug 4, 2011

I think around here outdoor guys dont use bloodmeal becasue it attracts wild boars

InTheBeginning · Aug 5, 2011

The OP who posted the microscopy observations needs to quantify his observations. e.g. how much of which substance did he/she add and what was the microbial count before and after. Anything added to a finished ACT can smother microbes. It depends on the dilution rate.

For the chemical ferts killing microbes issue see; http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Organic_Growing_Microbial_Perspective

Of course microbial interaction produces ionic form nutrients similar to chems and of course there are microbes which thrive on chem ions, however it is all about the balance of microbial populations and having the correct ratio of microbes conducive to the plant being grown. The use of chems alters these ratios.

mrbong73 · Aug 5, 2011

Thanks for dropping some knowledge ITB. Hope you'll stick around and help straigten out some of the misconceptions and rumors regarding ACT and such.
Cheers.

Seamaiden · Aug 6, 2011

InTheBeginning said:
The OP who posted the microscopy observations needs to quantify his observations. e.g. how much of which substance did he/she add and what was the microbial count before and after. Anything added to a finished ACT can smother microbes. It depends on the dilution rate.

For the chemical ferts killing microbes issue see; http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Organic_Growing_Microbial_Perspective

Of course microbial interaction produces ionic form nutrients similar to chems and of course there are microbes which thrive on chem ions, however it is all about the balance of microbial populations and having the correct ratio of microbes conducive to the plant being grown. The use of chems alters these ratios.

I have another set of glasses with which to view this, and another realm of experience, and that is with both hermatypic and non-hermatypic (reef building and non-reef building, respectively) corals and invertebrates.

???

Natural sea water vs man made sea water. It has long been known that if you're using a mix that it must be allowed to age for at least 24 hours or you may experience die-offs and other problems in the system. The why of it, however, is not known. We can measure, and rather reliably reproduce, each and every mineral and element found in natural sea water. We can recreate precisely specific gravity, total salinity, and pH values. But each and every time, in my own experience, natural sea water seriously outperforms man made salt water. Every time.

Which is one of the reasons why I was surprised to see that Steinhart Aquarium decided to go with man-made seawater for one of its very large coral reef displays. At Long Beach Aquarium they use filtered natural seawater but made a conscious decision to not house inverts in all appropriate displays, there is in fact only one live coral reef display to be found there and it's a "paltry" 500-1,000gals (can't remember the total volume). I would love to be able to compare how the residents in that system are growing compared to the residents of the 200,000+gal system at Steinhart that's using artificial seawater. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a real visual difference in appearance alone of organisms.

Why this ramble? Well, it popped into my head, it's something I've always wondered about (the sea water thing) and it somehow seems to be tied, though how, exactly, I couldn't say.

The Joker · Aug 6, 2011

So far , for smaller pots you have to add lots more act than you would for a larger container. I've been using Great White and Sannies bacto which are more convenient and as effective or better than teas.
Am going to try the Humbolt A plus B with Great White. So far in terms of root development, H&G Root excel smokes compost teas and mycchos. Still have my organic cab. Using the combination of organic and mineral ferts indoors the flavor difference is so minor it's working better. Yield is 25-50% more with a lot less work. But you have to constantly replenish.

Now outdoors is where I see a bigger difference in plants with ACT in combination with a thick layer of mulch. 6-12 inches at least. My mulch is mostly kitchen scraps and I throw everything I cut off plants onto the ground. Then it occassionaly gets a layer of chicken manure and grass clippings. Peel it back and you see the white threads. Indoors in 3 gallon pots much more difficult to maintain.
Since I bought all the crap to make ACT,I'm using it up in my vegetable and ornamental gardens. You can spray it too. If you have a lot of free time organics is fun. I work 50 hours a week so it's become a hassle.

Seamaiden · Aug 6, 2011

Wanna know something? I don't have a good active compost pile, so I don't use ACT. I'm still using organics, though, and outside of the time spent mineralizing the soil I'm spending my time harvesting. I'm not brewing a tea every week, I'm not even feeding every week. Only when things need it, and then what I feed is already in liquid form, is free and all too easy to come by. I keep asking myself if going to the time, trouble, effort and energy to make an actively aerated compost tea is really worth it, as compared to using an appropriate combination of initial inputs (organic and mineral matter worked into the soil, perhaps some initial inoculations of microbes) that is then primarily watered (on timed drippers/soakers) and only occasionally actively fed.

My biggest, most persistent problem in doing things this way is blossom end rot on some tomatoes, peppers and squashes in two almost identical beds. I've run out of dolomitic lime, but have dry gypsum and oyster shell flour on hand, as well as BioLink 6% Ca, and Calplex. Now that the plants have gotten so big it's not easy to get to the dripper area, so I'm considering how to make a Ca solution and foliar that to the affected plants. I thought I'd worked enough calcareous material into these areas and planting holes, but apparently not.

mrbong73 · Aug 6, 2011

I look at ACT as a way of speeding up the decomp process a little. By adding in all the micro life you get breakdown of OM at a quicker rate. The benefit is in the nutrient cycling that occurs during the brew and in the soil after application.
(at least that's my understanding)

Sea, get that compost pile going. You could have some badass compost with little effort involved.
You could try the eggshell tea for a calcium boost.

thumpnasty · Aug 6, 2011

so , i should not use botanicare cal mag if i use great white? im in coco and i use house and garden and the only thing i add is cal mag and great white.

Blaze · Aug 6, 2011

Seamaiden said:
I keep asking myself if going to the time, trouble, effort and energy to make an actively aerated compost tea is really worth it, as compared to using an appropriate combination of initial inputs (organic and mineral matter worked into the soil, perhaps some initial inoculations of microbes) that is then primarily watered (on timed drippers/soakers) and only occasionally actively fed.

Absolutely! I've seen the difference in the sap readings, the growth rate, the yield at the end of the season, root growth and health, disease resistance, and the bud size and density. If you are not seeing a big difference between using ACT and not using ACT, you are probably not making proper ACT (no offense).

DrFeelGood · Aug 6, 2011

Udyana Peace said:
Sure - why not?

To make 4 gallons of a mixture that you would want to use 1/4 cup (2 oz) to 1 gallon of water. That's an important number as things progress.

1 lb. of organic rosemary branches and remove the individual leaves from the branches. This is an important step.

Take the rosemary leaves and put into a food processor with an equal amount of pure water and puree this mess. Add 2 each habanero chilis, 10 cloves of garlic (leave the skin on) and an equal amount of fresh ginger (very important component)

Once you have this mess pureed place into a 5-gallon paint bucket and fill with 4 gallons of water. Add pureed mint (however you get there) and try to get at least 3 cups of mint puree - go with diversity, IMHO

Add 1 tablespoon of live yogurt (read the label) and any/all of the following at 1/2 teaspoon:

Miso - organic
Vinegar - organic
Mesu - organic
Beer - organic
Kefir - organic

You'll also want to add a carbohydrate source - I prefer and use palm sugar as it's minimally processed. Easily sourced at Southeast Asian markets - especially Vietnamese and Thai markets.

You MUST use organic sources because conventional/transitional forms will always contain preservatives which will arrest this process.

Let this mess/mixture ferment down to < 3.5 pH - lower is even better. Once you hit your acidic numbers strain the plant material from the liquid and toss into your worm bin or compost pile.

With the liquid apply as a foliar spray using 2 oz. (i.e. 1/4 cup) to 1 gallon of water and hit it every 3 days until you have the mites arrested and killed. Follow up with weekly applications of either neem or karanja oil at the prescribed rates.

Result? End of mites, powdery mildew, aphids, white flies, gnats, et al.

HTH

UP

I like this recipe it really reminds me of what is in Greenway University's "No Spider Mites" which costs about $100 per gallon I have been told. I know their recipe has Rosemary and Garlic in it, as well as Mint and Peppers. This may be a real deal recipe, I hope it is! The "No Spider Mite" product really seems to work and they claim it even kills eggs after only 2 applications. I have been unable to entirely shake these annoying persistent bugs for 6 months using everything I can get my hands on to try to exterminate them while only gaining moderate control... Much thanks to Udayana Peace for dropping knowledge of something to kill the little bastards on this site :animal0012: !

Dr FG

The Joker · Aug 6, 2011

Compost tea sprayed on leaves helps reduce PM outside on roses and succulents. Not as effective as Serenade , but pretty good.

Sea, I throw all my eggshells on the ground and I also have a tumbling composter.
I do "lasagna" gardening which mimics a forest floor. I just keep adding layers of kitchen scraps, brown paper bags, grass clippings , cardboard , chicken manure... whatever.
You can add some mycchos or tea, but chicken manure also has bacteria. It works with or without tea. Tea helps an area that has dried out and to speed up the breakdown. The mulch holds in the moisture.

You can make a compost pile on an an area that needs help. I made a compost pile last fall on a bed of irises that was hurting. It went nuts in the spring.
It's not pretty but it works.
Just ate tomatoes, potatoes and beets grown this way.

Seamaiden · Aug 7, 2011

Joker, I've gotten all the cardboard left over from the solar installation that I'm going to use for sheet mulching. However, I need other materials to add to it. What I'm hoping to be able to do is get the tree trimming company to dump a few truckloads of "chips" (more like huge chunks) onto the property and I can use that, it'll just take a really long time. Wish I had a source of moldy hay, but alas, can't seem to find anyone whose hay has gone to hell.

We don't really eat eggs very often, have had eggs twice in two weeks of late because the folks we bought the grassfed beef from gave us eggs (like almost anyone with chickens, they now have eggs coming out of their ears). I can't eat many eggs or my cholesterol levels will go to shit again, I have to stay primarily vegetarian.

mrbong73 said:
I look at ACT as a way of speeding up the decomp process a little. By adding in all the micro life you get breakdown of OM at a quicker rate. The benefit is in the nutrient cycling that occurs during the brew and in the soil after application.
(at least that's my understanding)

Sea, get that compost pile going. You could have some badass compost with little effort involved.
You could try the eggshell tea for a calcium boost.

Mrbong, we've been trying for YEARS! But it's just hubby and me and we're not generating enough waste. Also, we don't have a "yard", no lawn, no landscaping really to speak of, so again, aren't generating much waste that's appropriate for a compost pile.

I see ACT, all such teas that culture microbes, as an inoculation method, mostly.

Blaze said:
Absolutely! I've seen the difference in the sap readings, the growth rate, the yield at the end of the season, root growth and health, disease resistance, and the bud size and density. If you are not seeing a big difference between using ACT and not using ACT, you are probably not making proper ACT (no offense).

I'm not really making ACT in the first place, especially of late. The back alone has been bad enough to deal with, but then blowing out my knee, and that was what...? Two... no, three months ago? I need surgery, not getting to that D.O. until the 19th. In any event, I'm not doing much in the way of teas at the moment (as in not at all). I haven't even been logging anything like I like to do, guess I got into the habit of blowing it off from last year's stuff.

I have a feeling you're able to quantify just how much ACT changes your numbers, and I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.

In any event, that's my biggest hurdle to even making compost tea in the first place--we're just not generating enough waste to make a viable compost pile. That's one of the big reasons why I'm using urine, because I make a decent daily supply of it.

DrFeelGood · Aug 23, 2011

OK here is a question I have for you all- I brewed a compost tea with Diamond Nectar, Seaweed, Earthworm Castings, Guano, Great White, and Molasses. I brew in a 5 gallon bucket, so if I use all but one gallon and then add more water, molasses, seaweed, Diamond Nectar etc., everything but the Great White can I do what is essentially a perpetual brew of compost teas without having to keep adding Great White beneficials? I would have a cheaper constant supply of compost teas for my girls... I am doing this now and it seems to be working but I do not have a scope. I am on the third cycle, has anyone done this before?

Thanks,

Dr FG

Seamaiden · Aug 24, 2011

You want to culture the microbes, but I don't think it's quite that easy with these microbes. If all they needed was a surface to attach to it would be easy (relatively speaking), but they need to attach to roots. I don't know what forces them to make spores, which is what I believe their form is in products such as GW. This is just my roughly educated opinion, of course.

phenotyper · Aug 24, 2011

SM is spot on. Don't add GW until just before you're about to administer your teat, otherwise it's a waste.

Seamaiden · Aug 25, 2011

phenotyper said:
SM is spot on. Don't add GW until just before you're about to administer your teat, otherwise it's a waste.

Dude, that's just fuckin' awesome. I'm laughing my ASS OFF.

I remember administering my teats.
:giggle

InTheBeginning · Aug 25, 2011

DrFeelGood said:
OK here is a question I have for you all- I brewed a compost tea with Diamond Nectar, Seaweed, Earthworm Castings, Guano, Great White, and Molasses. I brew in a 5 gallon bucket, so if I use all but one gallon and then add more water, molasses, seaweed, Diamond Nectar etc., everything but the Great White can I do what is essentially a perpetual brew of compost teas without having to keep adding Great White beneficials? I would have a cheaper constant supply of compost teas for my girls... I am doing this now and it seems to be working but I do not have a scope. I am on the third cycle, has anyone done this before?

Thanks,

Dr FG

Why are you putting all that stuff in? Truly all you really need is high quality (vermi)compost and molasses to grow out a full compliment of microbes. If you are including endomycorrhizal fungi spores in compost tea, this is a waste of time and money.

Blaze · Aug 25, 2011

^^^ Sound advice. Adding Great White or anything else like that to tea always seemed redundant to me.

phenotyper · Aug 25, 2011

Seamaiden said:
Dude, that's just fuckin' awesome. I'm laughing my ASS OFF.

I remember administering my teats.
:giggle

freudian slip :cool0041:

Killing Microbial Life

Killing Microbial Life

Blaze

motherlode

@Rolln_J

InTheBeginning

mrbong73

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

The Joker

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

mrbong73

thumpnasty

Blaze

DrFeelGood

The Joker

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

DrFeelGood

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

phenotyper

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

Blaze

phenotyper

Killing Microbial Life

Killing Microbial Life

Blaze

motherlode

@Rolln_J

InTheBeginning

mrbong73

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

The Joker

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

mrbong73

thumpnasty

Blaze

DrFeelGood

The Joker

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

DrFeelGood

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

phenotyper

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

InTheBeginning

Blaze

phenotyper

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