PaperStreet said:

...@ KersD read up a bit most growers that use coco presoak in a mild cal mag drench right from the gate.
Especially useing RO as RO is completely depleted of micro/macro nutrients u must put them back in..
For most strains anyway...

Click to expand...

KersD

i use tap h20 so i do not need to add any cal/mag for the strains im running, it was easier then using r/o h2o.

good luck

KERSD:):)
haha I said the same damn thing when SEA hit me with that wheel but you seem to be book smart for-sure so just take a little time and look at it and follow SEA's led and it will become very clear and its some awesome info to have in your head once you understand the meaning of that wheel.

read on:writing:

Thanks, Jaws. Yes, at first, looking at it does make your head spin. I wish I knew how to PhotoShop (or GIMP) as well as people like Papa, because then I would assign a color to each element, and color-code the lines. I love color-coding, it's so much easier to read! As long as you're not color blind or in the dark, that is.

Kers, you are going to need more Ca, especially if you're going to keep pushing more Mg. Back off the Mg a bit, do it every other or third feeding, but continue to use the Cali... now I can't remember which it is. Cali-Magic? In any event, IIRC you're using it at around 5ml/gal, go to 7mls, and either drop that MgSO4, or give it as a foliar only, at the rate of 1/4tsp/gal+surfactant or sticker-spreader (that's as simple as a non-antimicrobial dish soap. Soap, not detergent, don't use Dawn, for example. Ivory or one of those cheap dollar store soaps is fine, something like Dr. Bronner's will do double duty for you).

Purple/red stems in absence of striping on main stalk, especially in conjunction with very dark green leaves, should be interpreted as a P-, or P uptake/utilization issue.

In the initial photographs of your plant, my own Dx would have been slight N-, not Mg-. You haven't shown anything that indicates Mg- in any photos, either, it looks like N- to me.

I feel you may have misdiagnosed the plant in question here. I would stop pushing that Mg altogether. I would up the veg formula and give it a bit more light (it's rooted well, right?), and a few teas.

SuperSilverHaze said:

KersD

i use tap h20 so i do not need to add any cal/mag for the strains im running, it was easier then using r/o h2o.

good luck

Click to expand...

I started out using tap (well) water, and it went horribly, so I switched to RO/DI and things were a lot easier to control. I had assumed that since my water was clearly high in carbonates, and since those carbonates were likely to include plenty of CaCO3, that I'd be ok. Problem was, it wasn't available to the plants, so back to scratch I had to go. I don't like doing it, so I save rainwater for those runs.
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Ok, Kers, more stuff to look at. Two charts, one's a flow chart cabbaged from a .uni site, the other cabbaged from a user on another site who added the important Ca problems, but unfortunately didn't put those depictions in the IMMOBILE NUTRIENTS side of the graphic. So, please remember that Ca is IMMOBILE, not MOBILE. Mg is MOBILE. That means that the plant either can or cannot translocate those nutrients from tissue to tissue, in other words it can't move it. You're going to see quickly why it's important to know where on a plant a particular symptom is being observed.

And I do confess some small annoyance, but it's all good, there are others who can pick up where I leave off. :D

I have noticed lately i dont even really need any calmag until later in flower as long as i give my plants enuff micro in veg a little bit of micro goes a long way.

Seamaiden said:

Thanks, Jaws. Yes, at first, looking at it does make your head spin. I wish I knew how to PhotoShop (or GIMP) as well as people like Papa, because then I would assign a color to each element, and color-code the lines. I love color-coding, it's so much easier to read! As long as you're not color blind or in the dark, that is.

Kers, you are going to need more Ca, especially if you're going to keep pushing more Mg. Back off the Mg a bit, do it every other or third feeding, but continue to use the Cali... now I can't remember which it is. Cali-Magic? In any event, IIRC you're using it at around 5ml/gal, go to 7mls, and either drop that MgSO4, or give it as a foliar only, at the rate of 1/4tsp/gal+surfactant or sticker-spreader (that's as simple as a non-antimicrobial dish soap. Soap, not detergent, don't use Dawn, for example. Ivory or one of those cheap dollar store soaps is fine, something like Dr. Bronner's will do double duty for you).

Purple/red stems in absence of striping on main stalk, especially in conjunction with very dark green leaves, should be interpreted as a P-, or P uptake/utilization issue.

In the initial photographs of your plant, my own Dx would have been slight N-, not Mg-. You haven't shown anything that indicates Mg- in any photos, either, it looks like N- to me.

I feel you may have misdiagnosed the plant in question here. I would stop pushing that Mg altogether. I would up the veg formula and give it a bit more light (it's rooted well, right?), and a few teas.
I started out using tap (well) water, and it went horribly, so I switched to RO/DI and things were a lot easier to control. I had assumed that since my water was clearly high in carbonates, and since those carbonates were likely to include plenty of CaCO3, that I'd be ok. Problem was, it wasn't available to the plants, so back to scratch I had to go. I don't like doing it, so I save rainwater for those runs.
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Ok, Kers, more stuff to look at. Two charts, one's a flow chart cabbaged from a .uni site, the other cabbaged from a user on another site who added the important Ca problems, but unfortunately didn't put those depictions in the IMMOBILE NUTRIENTS side of the graphic. So, please remember that Ca is IMMOBILE, not MOBILE. Mg is MOBILE. That means that the plant either can or cannot translocate those nutrients from tissue to tissue, in other words it can't move it. You're going to see quickly why it's important to know where on a plant a particular symptom is being observed.

And I do confess some small annoyance, but it's all good, there are others who can pick up where I leave off. :D

Click to expand...

Im sorry, I guess I'll expand my actual threading and Q's to other forums besides just here.. Had no intention of annoying anyone, and I honestly am Extremely Grateful for ALL of your help + responding directly to me and back to me w/o making me wait. Not only do you answer my questions, but you actually take time out of YOUR day to go the extra mile and give me even more information than I ask for which is awesome, and if more people that had your knowledge and experience did that we would need ALLOT less threads! LOL! Although I do have to disagree with you on one thing (OMG). I believe that it was indeed Magnesium deficiency as opposed to N- (although there was indeed more than just mag deficiency when I first got them), and I believe if you look at the one close up pic of the mature fan leaf and compare it to your previous attachment it shows that. Also with it being a lower leaf showing yellowing between veins it goes with the other attachment also as being Magnesium. I dont know if it means anything to you, but the "CaliMagic" has an N-P-K of 1-0-0. Either way, it's beyond that & I'm not trying to argue with you, My words have absolutely NO weight against your experience. One thing tho that I never mentioned was the purple in the main stalk started becoming more and more maroon or red along time ago.. "Purple/red stems in absence of striping on main stalk, especially in conjunction with very dark green leaves, should be interpreted as a P-, or P uptake/utilization issue."
This is something I had not yet read, I assumed the purple was so dark that as it "went away" it just looked more red before it got back to green. I mentioned that my E.C. runoff was considerably higher than what I was putting in when I finally started checking it like 4 days ago. Yesterday I fed with higher than I wanted, but nonetheless it was only 0.6 E.C. made up of 1 quart of RO water w/ 0.2ml Micro, 0.7ml Bloom and half of 1/8 tsp Mg/So4. Went in at 290ppm & runoff was 510ppm. When I looked at them this morning I swear I could see a difference in them just from the day before.. Maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me, so Today I did 1/2 Gal RO w/ 0.3 Micro, and 0.6 Bloom(Small scale Lucas Formula). Thats it, no Mg/So4 as the bloom has 1.5% Mg anyway, oh and the micro has 5% Ca. Went in at 180ppm & with close to 50% runoff was 350ppm. If they look better to me again tomorrow I'll believe that its the P helping it and the Mg is good at the moment with the Maturity of the Coco. Although I will be transplanting tomorrow into what I believe is a 6 liter container, which when I bought it I thought it was 2 gal. So I'm gonna bring my CaliMagic back for a bit, but besides that If I let her Veg in that container for a few weeks or long enough to clear up ANY & ALL deficiency, and also have the roots dominate the space. Will she be able to Flower for 60-70 days in that container without having any rootbound problems??

PaperStreet said:

I have noticed lately i dont even really need any calmag until later in flower as long as i give my plants enuff micro in veg a little bit of micro goes a long way.

Click to expand...

Do you use the Lucas Formula or do you have your own regimen?

PaperStreet said:

I have noticed lately i dont even really need any calmag until later in flower as long as i give my plants enuff micro in veg a little bit of micro goes a long way.

Click to expand...

You also told me earlier in this thread that your SVF OGK and hybrids of her were heavy cal/mag eaters.
"I can tell u that yes indeed my sfv and all the hybrids ive made with sfv ogk do like to eat and like a healthy schedule of calmag in there feed regimen. I hit them a couple few time in veg thru early stages from transition to flower they should and will love it by pepaying u with dense frosty nugglets i wouldnt be afraid at all getting a good regimen with the calmag in especially once they settle down and start stacking nuggs into aggressive flower then back off till they start ripening off and u begin to implement your flush"

No lucas formula..
I was useing AN jungle juice which is basicly a rip from GH regular 3 part formula for a third of the price.

I have been useing Cutting Edge Solutions 3 part now.
3 part consists of basic veg,micro and basic flower...
I have been playing with useing more micro lately it does indeed help keep and get my plants green..

That being said tho most OG's, especially my sfv crosses still need a little calmag in between.. I grew a chem hybrid recently that also was a calmag hungry beyotch looked alot like your plant did on my regular feed.. Fixed her up with some calmag tho...

I have learned over time that all strains eat a little more or a little than the next strain.
U asked a really good question in your original post...
Does Sfv need a supplemental feed of calmag and i answered yes i kinda wish i woud have asked the question myself..

U just have to play with it and watch what ur plants are telling u i guess.

Sea maiden posted some awesome scales for ya.. which i will be studying myself.

A little micro goes along ways it really does but some strains do require a little extra calmag.

KersD said:

Im sorry, I guess I'll expand my actual threading and Q's to other forums besides just here.. Had no intention of annoying anyone, and I honestly am Extremely Grateful for ALL of your help + responding directly to me and back to me w/o making me wait. Not only do you answer my questions, but you actually take time out of YOUR day to go the extra mile and give me even more information than I ask for which is awesome, and if more people that had your knowledge and experience did that we would need ALLOT less threads! LOL!

Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to make you feel as though you have to go elsewhere, I apologize for that.

KersD said:

Although I do have to disagree with you on one thing (OMG). I believe that it was indeed Magnesium deficiency as opposed to N- (although there was indeed more than just mag deficiency when I first got them), and I believe if you look at the one close up pic of the mature fan leaf and compare it to your previous attachment it shows that. Also with it being a lower leaf showing yellowing between veins it goes with the other attachment also as being Magnesium. I dont know if it means anything to you, but the "CaliMagic" has an N-P-K of 1-0-0.

Click to expand...

Look more closely. Mg- begin as interveinal chlorosis and it has this 'halo' appearance, whereas N- tends to be all over, I've looked again at the photos you provided and I still feel it's a misdiagnosis.

Also, a super-easy trick to help Dx Mg- within a day is to give a foliar application, 1/4tsp/gal of water + sticker-spreader, first thing at lights-on or in the A.M. If the plant greens up quickly, within a day, then yes, you've got an issue with magnesium, it's *that* mobile. If not, then you have another issue. If it's to do with lowers yellowing again and that foliar doesn't green it up, then you should look elsewhere. My money would be on nitrogen. :)

KersD said:

Either way, it's beyond that & I'm not trying to argue with you, My words have absolutely NO weight against your experience. One thing tho that I never mentioned was the purple in the main stalk started becoming more and more maroon or red along time ago.. "Purple/red stems in absence of striping on main stalk, especially in conjunction with very dark green leaves, should be interpreted as a P-, or P uptake/utilization issue."
This is something I had not yet read, I assumed the purple was so dark that as it "went away" it just looked more red before it got back to green.

Click to expand...

Yes, and it's SO common in indoor growing that many people think it's normal and indicative of nothing. Most are willing to accept it. However, I know that P is an incredibly important nutrient, and I'm always trying to up my game, so when I see that I know I'm not there. BTW, I almost never see purpling/reddening on my outdoor-grown plants, but pretty am often battling it on my indoor-grown plants. Can be the same cut, almost the same everything, but indoors vs out..? It was when I made that observation that I knew there's clearly something afoot.

KersD said:

I mentioned that my E.C. runoff was considerably higher than what I was putting in when I finally started checking it like 4 days ago. Yesterday I fed with higher than I wanted, but nonetheless it was only 0.6 E.C. made up of 1 quart of RO water w/ 0.2ml Micro, 0.7ml Bloom and half of 1/8 tsp Mg/So4. Went in at 290ppm & runoff was 510ppm. When I looked at them this morning I swear I could see a difference in them just from the day before.. Maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me, so Today I did 1/2 Gal RO w/ 0.3 Micro, and 0.6 Bloom(Small scale Lucas Formula). Thats it, no Mg/So4 as the bloom has 1.5% Mg anyway, oh and the micro has 5% Ca. Went in at 180ppm & with close to 50% runoff was 350ppm. If they look better to me again tomorrow I'll believe that its the P helping it and the Mg is good at the moment with the Maturity of dthe Coco. Although I will be transplanting tomorrow into what I believe is a 6 liter container, which when I bought it I thought it was 2 gal. So I'm gonna bring my CaliMagic back for a bit, but besides that If I let her Veg in that container for a few weeks or long enough to clear up ANY & ALL deficiency, and also have the roots dominate the space. Will she be able to Flower for 60-70 days in that container without having any rootbound problems??

Click to expand...

Please remember, calcium is immobile. If that plant is still in veg and you cut off Ca now, then flip her into flower, in 3-4 weeks she's going to be showing Ca-, and by then it's too late to correct. I would continue using the CaliMagic through the first month of flower, assuming it's an 8-week strain. If you refer again to that mineral wheel, if you can figure nothing else, you will see that calcium relates to many other minerals. It is vital to provide sufficient, and sufficiently available calcium.

I would not give her a few weeks in a 2gal container. If it takes that long to correct deficiencies, then you're not dealing with Mg- *or* N-, so hopefully it'll take no more than a week or two to correct the issues. I do sea of green in 2gal pots, and the plants get quite rootbound. They have to be controlled during those first 2-3 weeks of post-flip stretch. When transplanting, I suggest removing some of the roots so as to allow a bit more room for them before they hit the walls. You can remove up to 1/3 of the total root volume without causing harm to the plant, IME. I use a knife. A big old knife.

Since your run-off is so high, it does hint that you may have developed a salty medium and it needs some flushing out. Keep going with the very mild solutions (try to get it down to 300ppm) and I think you'll continue to see good response. If you're uncertain about response, take pix for your own reference.

You must be right about the N-, cuz I've been giving Foliar's of straight Mg/So4 EVERYDAY since the night I got those girls home!! But I never added any "sticker-spreader" or soap. Awhile back in this thread I think UnitedGrooves said that if I saw green new growth than I shouldnt worry about the older purple stuff, but thats just it, She's had Green NEW growth all over since I got her home and into some good coco and feeding her, but the purple follows right up less then a day behind it. Ive finally gotten her to look like shes giving up the purple/RED but, she's been growing nicely ever since shes been in my care. I topped the other one and i took another cut from so Im practicing some cloning skills, 11 days on the top now with no roots showing, but it was pretty (lignant? idk how that word is spelled.) I can tell its got roots tho cuz its definetely anchored into the rockwool cube now, the other ones 4 days behind it. Thanks again SeaMaiden, sorry about what I said about going elsewhere.. I was just Butt-hurt that you actually confessed to being annoyed!LOL

Let me go find something I recently read in a magazine about P and how the plant needs it to make and/or utilize sugars.

I'm a mother, and I can be brutally honest, but I don't go for brutal. You asked if anyone were annoyed, and I confessed, a little bit, but I was over it pretty quick.

Ok, brb!

Seamaiden said:

I wasn't trying to make you feel as though you have to go elsewhere, I apologize for that.

Look more closely. Mg- begin as interveinal chlorosis and it has this 'halo' appearance, whereas N- tends to be all over, I've looked again at the photos you provided and I still feel it's a misdiagnosis.

Click to expand...

Sorry I just wanted you to be Alerted to my last response cuz I guess I didnt click reply

Seamaiden said:

Let me go find something I recently read in a magazine about P and how the plant needs it to make and/or utilize sugars.

I'm a mother, and I can be brutally honest, but I don't go for brutal. You asked if anyone were annoyed, and I confessed, a little bit, but I was over it pretty quick.

Ok, brb!

Click to expand...

K

Ok, reprinted sans permission.

Phosphorous, one of six elements that are essential to all forms of life, is a necessary component in DNA and cell membranes. Plants need phosphorous to develop healthy roots, to bloom, and to form fruits and seeds. While a phosphorous deficiency will not halt photosynthesis, it will hinder the plant's ability to use photosynthesis-generated sugars--essential building blocks in plant cells. This leads to a buildup of sugars in the leaves, which causes a darkening of the tissues in some plants. Phosphorous-starved tomatoes develop those characteristic purple leaves because they simply cannot move sugars from their leaves quickly enough.

Click to expand...

Cannabis is one of those plants that shows P- by a darkening of tissues, typically in the petioles (the stem to which the leaf is attached).

FUCK my typing skillz are still MAD! I did that without looking at what I was typing ONCE, just looking at the print I was copying. God damn, when I'm good, I'm real good. :D
Ok, so 75wpm ain't great, but considering I failed THREE count 'em THREE typing classes in my youth, I think it's fucking STELLAR.

Seamaiden said:

FUCK my typing skillz are still MAD! I did that without looking at what I was typing ONCE, just looking at the print I was copying. God damn, when I'm good, I'm real good. :D
Ok, so 75wpm ain't great, but considering I failed THREE count 'em THREE typing classes in my youth, I think it's fucking STELLAR.

Click to expand...

Something like that is fuckin hard to do with a science based paragraph in which most of the words use keys that we might not use to often, LOL haha. But yeah, my petioles are the one place where the color is really lasting. Its cool tho cuz now Im seeing it in other people's plants in their youtube vids a lot of them have dark petioles at least. So I have no clue how to feed these babies now, this whole time I thought I was figuring out what strength of cal/mag they needed cuz I saw the purple stems and stalks and instantly read a reply to someone elses Q in a diff thread

From swerve

og is a food whore.. shit i give them 750ppm of nitrogen and calmag right when they root and go into my dwc system... then it gets bumped real fast to 1000ppm... when i switched this last run to 12/12 i was at shit i dunno 1250-1300ppm before even going into flower. and i will top them off at 2000ppm of bloom calmag and kool bloom. before my 3 weeks flush. and not a burn anywhere on the leaves or in the buds.. and let me tell you i got og kolas right now that are just under arms length and they are a true 3 weeks into flower. im talking insane og dank....hahahahahaa i take all my og at 70-75 days nothing earlier i like the weight it puts on those last 2 weeks. you can go from a 2 ounce plant to a 4 ounce plant in those last 2-3 weeks. trust me on that... rock hard dense as all hell lemon pledge pinesol kerosine smelling and tasting buds......ok lt me help ya a bit here...

i run dwc lucas formula as well. but i run 12X 5 gallon at one spot another spot i run 50X5gall and an old spot of mine we ran just under 200X5gal alll dwc...so i ahve some experience here...oh and all the grows were og and chem D and chem4 and underdawg cut. so everything you said sounds great 600w co2 and all that jazz... start them off kinda chill until you notice they are growing once they get growing hit them good with nitrogen and calmag.. those are your friends with og... og is a cal mag whore.... she will eat as much of it as you can throw at it... the longest possible veg and as much lst and topping or fimming or training you can do to get them to bush out... if you can set up a trelis and weave them through the trelis kinda like a scrog grow... og can be lanky if you dont stay on her with supercropping or lst.... when she starts to stretch pinch the stem ie supercrop. this will cause her to branch out more.... if you can veg them for 20+ days in a dwc you will have pretty large plants if you have the head space that is. but they will yeild killer for you f you can get them fairly big and bushy." End Quote​

I'm extremely curious as to what you think about this^^^ especially coming straight from him, who Supposedly started this cut? Just what I've heard (read)..​

This is the problem with ppm--it is a derivation, a conversion and calculation, made from EC (electrical conductivity). As such, there are different conversion factors. The two I'm aware of are called the .5 and .7, or the 500 or 700 conversion factors, which is where my own head begins to spin because it's NUMBERS...! I am mathematically declined, and it's a serious disability, I'm not joking about this. In any event, those are only *two* conversions, two variations on the ppm theme, that we don't know here. Better to learn and use EC.

Second, a huge part of the feeding scenario is lighting, and I don't think that can be hemphasized enough (that was a typo, but I've decided to leave it as my Freudian slip o' the finger). Light drives every process for the plant, it is integral to how well the plant will be able to utilize available nutrients.

The issue that I have with what you're doing, and this is strictly personal, is that it's chemical salt solubles, and it's formulaic, and I personally have a really, REALLY hard time working that way. I don't follow recipes unless I'm baking, and even then, I take liberties. And that does conflict with my science-loving, definitive-answer-loving self. But it melds perfectly with the artistic side of things, the gut, the instinct, the feel.

That's what takes time to learn, and here's the rub--you absolutely HAVE to learn your own way, because THAT is what is going to work for *you*. What swerve does works for him. It just so happens that a variation on the Big Ricky method worked for me, but it was a mathematically-mistaken variation (I completely misread and misunderstood and so miscalculated how much Fox Farms Big Bloom to give, and so the plants were basically getting a mild flush every time I thought I was feeding them. NOT his recipe at all, yet it worked beautifully for me).

So, what conversion factor is/was swerve using when feeding his girls that he's talking about here? That's one place for a mistake to occur. EC is absolute, and it's absolute across the board as long as you're using it in the right scenario, and you are. And, I'll tell you this much, even if it's the .5 conversion he was using, that sure seems to be pushing them awfully hard. I've only run crosses, but none of them were that hungry, nowhere nearly that hungry.

Finally, on the Lucas formula. It works great for some people, and terribly for others. That's it. This may not be the best method to grow for you, and it's just going to take some time for you to either get this method 'dialed in' or to figure out which method works best for you. Indoor growing isn't rocket science, but neither is it easy breezy unless you have a gift. It took me some TIME, and it's still taking me more time, I still make terrible mistakes and screw some things up pretty royally. See my post and pix in the Death by Stylet thread for the most recent proof of that.

Jesus, I just started my first joint of the day and got lost in musing, forgot to mention that my POINT is that part of learning to grow is learning to respond to the plant, not necessarily following a formula.

Nice charts sea.. I printed them up so i could have them @ the shop for the caretaker... Thanks

A little ocd arent we? I would get em in bigger pots immediately, unless you plan on feeding with a hydro style setup. Usually when a plant needs water everyday it is ready for a bigger pot. Just go to a one gallon if you need space. Keep it simple dont get to complicated, the plant will feel your emotions and die off.