Midflower Problems - topdressing not helping?

[hm7]

Hey guys,

This is my first time running organic soil and I keep running into issues about every 3-4 weeks. I was hoping this was going to be more straight forward with less to deal with compared to hydro or cocoa, but the problems keep coming and I'm not sure how to rectify the situation while sticking with organic.




The first time I saw issues was a week before flipping to flower. Yellowing of leaves / general issues. I was running Ocean Forest in a 3gal during veg when I first saw this. I've been using Gaia Green to top dress with per their instructions, as well as Glacial Rock Dust, Gypsum, Epsom, and also the occasional batch of recharge.

Top dressing didn't seem to do anything when I encountered this problem, so I figured my only real shot at fixing it was to transplant her into some new soil / a larger pot. She was not root bound. I transplanted her into a 5gal and put her in some Strawberry Fields soil amended with some Gaia Green and EWC. After a rough week of transplant shock - she sprung back to life and was looking great - until now. Things started taking a turn for the worse about a week ago, despite following the Gaia Green top dressing instructions.


I'm in w4 of flower now, and things are yellowing again badly. I have been top dressing with Gaia Green, Glacial Rock Dust, Gypsum, recharge, and also Epsom every couple weeks - per their instructions. I've also tried top dressing a couple of days ago with EWC and I also tried making a EWC tea that I had brewed. Maybe it's too early to tell notice anything, but she's continuing to worsen.




It's pretty clear that the top dressing / amendments I've been doing so far aren't working/giving her what she needs for whatever reason, and I'm not sure why. I've read so many people have great, smooth grows with minimal problems using GG.


She's starting to look pretty rough, and the yellowing is creeping up further and further - I'm not sure she's going to make it at this point.

The only real course of action I can think of is to try to transplant her into a larger 7gal with some new soil and see if that helps bring her back, but I'm reluctant to transplant this far into flower fearing to stress her out. Even if I do transplant her with minimal shock, I expect I'll be running into this same problem around week 7-8 of flower - which isn't going to be great either.



To me, this looks like a Nitrogen and maybe Mag deficiencies? I'm not really sure what I should do to correct the problems quickly and keep it from continuing to occur or worsen, and why the Gaia Green isn't seeming to give her what she needs.


Any tips/help/advice? Thanks much!

 

[LoveGrowingIt]

It looks to me like you have some light stress or burn. The praying leaves and white tips indicate that to me. The leaves pray or curl to protect themselves from the light. What looks like N or Mg deficiency could occur because the leaves are getting more intense light than they can handle. So, I suggest adjusting the light.

Which Gaia Green product are you using? It should be Power Bloom at this stage.

 

[hm7]

Yeah, I was thinking the light might be a bit much too, which is kind of unexpected as according to my meter, it's only about 750-800 umol at the highest points, which shouldn't be too much, but ... you are right - she is praying. the light itself isn't even turned up 3/4 of the way, and is pretty far away from the canopy. I need to measure to see exactly how high (I'm thinking at least about 18" away), but it is a rather intense/large light.

I'll try raising the light up even further and decreasing the intensity, but I still suspect there's more going on here than just light stress given the issues are starting at the lower leaves and creeping upward.


I've got both the GG all-purpose and their Bloom. I was using All-Purpose in veg. When I flipped to flower I did a mix of 50/50 All-Purpose and Bloom. This last topdressing I used only the Bloom.

 

[3cats]

Hey guys,

This is my first time running organic soil and I keep running into issues about every 3-4 weeks. I was hoping this was going to be more straight forward with less to deal with compared to hydro or cocoa, but the problems keep coming and I'm not sure how to rectify the situation while sticking with organic.




The first time I saw issues was a week before flipping to flower. Yellowing of leaves / general issues. I was running Ocean Forest in a 3gal during veg when I first saw this. I've been using Gaia Green to top dress with per their instructions, as well as Glacial Rock Dust, Gypsum, Epsom, and also the occasional batch of recharge.

Top dressing didn't seem to do anything when I encountered this problem, so I figured my only real shot at fixing it was to transplant her into some new soil / a larger pot. She was not root bound. I transplanted her into a 5gal and put her in some Strawberry Fields soil amended with some Gaia Green and EWC. After a rough week of transplant shock - she sprung back to life and was looking great - until now. Things started taking a turn for the worse about a week ago, despite following the Gaia Green top dressing instructions.


I'm in w4 of flower now, and things are yellowing again badly. I have been top dressing with Gaia Green, Glacial Rock Dust, Gypsum, recharge, and also Epsom every couple weeks - per their instructions. I've also tried top dressing a couple of days ago with EWC and I also tried making a EWC tea that I had brewed. Maybe it's too early to tell notice anything, but she's continuing to worsen.




It's pretty clear that the top dressing / amendments I've been doing so far aren't working/giving her what she needs for whatever reason, and I'm not sure why. I've read so many people have great, smooth grows with minimal problems using GG.


She's starting to look pretty rough, and the yellowing is creeping up further and further - I'm not sure she's going to make it at this point.

The only real course of action I can think of is to try to transplant her into a larger 7gal with some new soil and see if that helps bring her back, but I'm reluctant to transplant this far into flower fearing to stress her out. Even if I do transplant her with minimal shock, I expect I'll be running into this same problem around week 7-8 of flower - which isn't going to be great either.



To me, this looks like a Nitrogen and maybe Mag deficiencies? I'm not really sure what I should do to correct the problems quickly and keep it from continuing to occur or worsen, and why the Gaia Green isn't seeming to give her what she needs.


Any tips/help/advice? Thanks much!

 

[Imzzaudae]

Hello and welcome to the forum.
I do see some signs of light stress. What light are you using how high above the plant and power setting is it in these pictures?

You Main problem now is hot soil. More than light stress.
You need to stop feeding nitrogen of any kind.
Your plant has finished growing. It's budded up and is in flowers production mode!
Take a good look at your plant.
That dark green almost toxic Nitrogen color. Your tips are burned. Leaf edge points are burned.
I know your thinking old growth yellowing climbing up the plant is lack of nitrogen.
Go to the store and grab a soil test kit. It's like $20 bucks. Test for nitrogen and it will be off the scale high.
Fox Farms Ocean forest is very hot to start with. When you transplanted into it is when this went wrong on you.
Then you transplanted into another heavily amended soil Strawberry fields.
You have hit it with Recharge.
Then top dressed with Gaia Green likely 4-4-4 how many times now?
I'm surprised it has not crawled out of the pot. Really.

Please understand that it is not my intent to pick on you bud. I'm just telling you what I see k. I can't help you if I don't tell you what I see. This really is not your fault. It's a simple trap to fall into. This is why I do not use pre amended soils of any kind. Ya just don't know what is in there.

Please post Everything you have fed this plant in the last 90 days, as best you can.
Please include N-P-K numbers on all products.
I'd really like you to very slowly flush this plant with about 20 gallons of room temperature water to get rid of all the nitrogen stored in your medium.
Give it a little something like this. 0-10 -10

And let her dry out for a week.
Even then likely most of her leaves will likely burn off, but you may be able to save the plant and end up with some bud. Nice mainline job buy the way!

I must step out for a bit. I will pop back in after a while. I'd like to read any options your thinking.
Will post a few videos that will help you in your next grow.
Ron

 

[hm7]

Hello and welcome to the forum.
I do see some signs of light stress. What light are you using how high above the plant and power setting is it in these pictures?

You Main problem now is hot soil. More than light stress.
You need to stop feeding nitrogen of any kind.
Your plant has finished growing. It's budded up and is in flowers production mode!
Take a good look at your plant.
That dark green almost toxic Nitrogen color. Your tips are burned. Leaf edge points are burned.
I know your thinking old growth yellowing climbing up the plant is lack of nitrogen.
Go to the store and grab a soil test kit. It's like $20 bucks. Test for nitrogen and it will be off the scale high.
Fox Farms Ocean forest is very hot to start with. When you transplanted into it is when this went wrong on you.
Then you transplanted into another heavily amended soil Strawberry fields.
You have hit it with Recharge.
Then top dressed with Gaia Green likely 4-4-4 how many times now?
I'm surprised it has not crawled out of the pot. Really.

Please understand that it is not my intent to pick on you bud. I'm just telling you what I see k. I can't help you if I don't tell you what I see. This really is not your fault. It's a simple trap to fall into. This is why I do not use pre amended soils of any kind. Ya just don't know what is in there.

Please post Everything you have fed this plant in the last 90 days, as best you can.
Please include N-P-K numbers on all products.
I'd really like you to very slowly flush this plant with about 20 gallons of room temperature water to get rid of all the nitrogen stored in your medium.
Give it a little something like this. 0-10 -10
View attachment 2082033
And let her dry out for a week.
Even then likely most of her leaves will likely burn off, but you may be able to save the plant and end up with some bud. Nice mainline job buy the way!

I must step out for a bit. I will pop back in after a while. I'd like to read any options your thinking.
Will post a few videos that will help you in your next grow.
Ron

Appreciate the help and detailed response Ron - thank you.


I believe the light I'm using is a Mars Hydro FC3000. It's currently sitting 25" above the canopy and is at 60% intensity. I don't really understand why it's getting stressed out when the light is so high and also turned down so low?




What you're saying about the soil being hot makes sense to me somewhat, but on the other hand it's also confusing me.

When I started this out, I was reading OF was supposed to be the go-so oil for people to use. I've seen so many people claim to have used Ocean Forest start to finish without issue, and others praising Strawberry Fields to be used for transplanting into when flowering. I started this seedling out in the same bag of OF I have been using without her having issues or getting burnt.


I've been doing coco and synthetic nutrients the last few runs without too many major issues. After seeing so many people use OF with Gaia Green and just water - I was hoping this was going to be an easier, less hands-on grow. While it's admittedly been far less work and involvement, I've had nothing but problems this run. It's very frustrating, especially seeing so many people running perfect, flawless grows without issues for their first times when I've got quite a few under my belt now (but all with coco/hydro).


According to recharge, it's not supposed to harm/burn plants? My understanding was, recharge was basically meant to be food for the beneficial bacteria inside of the soil?




Appreciate the comment about the mainline. This was the first time I've attempted it, and it turned out well. I had really high hopes for this run, but yeah - I'm not sure I can even save her at this point. Let me dig through my notes and see if I can find details of what I've fed and when.

 

[hm7]

Ron - I've looked through my notes. Here's a log of what I've done and when.

-----

9-25 - (veg) - 2tbsp GG Veg
10-18 - (veg) - Starting to yellow
10-24 - (veg) Transplanted her into a 5gal container. Stawberry Fields soil + perlite + EWC. 2tbsp GG Veg, 2tbsp GGBloom, 2tbsp Glacial Dust
10-27 - (veg) Growth resumes after transplant shock. Plant looks great, growing again


11-4 - Flipped to flower. She's been growing great, no more yellowing, no problems.

11-12 - Top dressed: 8tbsp of GG Veg, 8tbsp Bloom, 1tbsp Gypsum, 2tbsp Rock Dust, 1tbsp Epsom
11-26 - She's starting to show signs of yellowing
11-30 - Top Dressed: 10tbsp Bloom, 1tbsp Gypsum, 2tbsp Rock Dust, EWC tea I made.



That's pretty much where we are today. It looks like I haven't used recharge as much as I thought. I used it primarily in Veg, but according to my notes, I haven't used it in flower.


I see what you're saying here though - maybe it was the top dress on 11-12, that caused her to start yellowing on 11-26?


----


I wish I had access to a soil testing kit. I looked around, no one around me has one in stock. I'd have to order it online, which wouldn't arrive for days.


I think you're right - I was looking through some of my very early veg notes, and it looks like 2-3 weeks after I topdressed in veg, is when the yellowing started. I think I've been just following these instructions I found online to topdress every 4 weeks or so - thinking I would keep the soil good to go, but in actuality the soil has been fine. I've just been adding too much on top trying to prevent issues, which takes 2-3 weeks to start breaking down and when it does, then it just burns the plants.

Yup.... Definitely a hard lesson to learn this far in. It's been a VERY long grow with all that work on the mainlining.





I think at this point, the only thing I can do is probably try to transplant her into some unammended soil + perlite, trying to get most of the existing hot soil out/off her - and see if she somehow recovers and doesn't herm out / die.

I'm not sure I can even flush all of this out of the soil at this point, I think I'd probably just drown her trying to flush.

 

[chitownglass]

Looks like a light intensity issue to me.

 

[Imzzaudae]

I flower under a 2015 Mars 300x60 LED.
New Led lights like you have there are very efficient and produce a tremendous amount of light.
It's very easy to burn a plant with them. Ultimately you are the one looking at your plant and making the decisions.
Keep an eye on her and see what you think as time goes on. Adjust your light height accordingly.

Same goes for your Plant.
Think about it for a day or so. Then do what ever makes the most sense to you.

Save these links. Grab a pen and a calculator. Learn how to do this fertilizer calculation.
Just start running numbers and it will just come to you.

Then this Runoff E.C test.

Just in case.
Calculating dry fertilizers.

Once you can do these you will never use a pre-loaded soil again.
I only use 3-1-2 formula fertilizers.
3-1-2
6-2-4
9-3-6
12-4-8 are all 3-1-2 formula. If you use this formula the Phosphorus and Potassium percentages will be perfect
at what ever Nitrogen percentage you select and calculate for in Veg. After stretch cut the Nitrogen buy 50%
and use a bloom booster to keep your P-K levels up
I use 200mg in a gallon of water

This is a photo so you can click and save it.

With a little luck you can pull this plant threw, And flower her.
Ron

 

[hm7]

Thanks for all the help/info Ron. Really appreciate it. This has really helped me understand what I've been doing wrong with soil.

After having very complicated/cumbersome setups with both hydro and coco before this, I was looking to keep this as simple/straight forward/easy as possible - thus why I went with preloaded soil. I just wanted to find something that worked without having to screw around with stuff for once. I got so tired of measuring out everything with hydro/coco, and dealing with water changes, etc. I was hoping soil was going to be more of a 'plant it, water, and ... that's pretty much it".



Yeah, the whole light height vs intensity thing has always given me trouble. My first light I started with had no dimmer so it was always at 100%. It was much older and smaller though. Since I've gotten this new larger one, I've had a very difficult time understanding how high to raise it and what intensity to set it at. The light itself has been great, but the instructions that came with it were not real helpful.

 

[rasterman]

It looks to me like you have some light stress or burn. The praying leaves and white tips indicate that to me. The leaves pray or curl to protect themselves from the light. What looks like N or Mg deficiency could occur because the leaves are getting more intense light than they can handle. So, I suggest adjusting the light.

Which Gaia Green product are you using? It should be Power Bloom at this stage.

Yeah but light burn should be restricted to the top of the plant.

It certainly seems that you've given her enough nutes, and sometimes a lockout looks like a deficiency. Have you flushed her? I would flush the hell out of her, then feed her a weak nutrient solution. Admittedly, I'd be guessing.

 

[Imzzaudae]

I got ya bud. There is a learning curve to any grow.
I don't use any cannabis fertilizer.
I grow in 50% Peat 50% vermiculite.
Add
40 grams Dolomite lime cubic foot
10 grams Gypsum cubic foot
Watch this video to understand why.
I know he likes 20-10-20 but I like 12-4-8
This is about as easy as it gets.

 

[rasterman]

Appreciate the help and detailed response Ron - thank you.


I believe the light I'm using is a Mars Hydro FC3000. It's currently sitting 25" above the canopy and is at 60% intensity. I don't really understand why it's getting stressed out when the light is so high and also turned down so low?




What you're saying about the soil being hot makes sense to me somewhat, but on the other hand it's also confusing me.

When I started this out, I was reading OF was supposed to be the go-so oil for people to use. I've seen so many people claim to have used Ocean Forest start to finish without issue, and others praising Strawberry Fields to be used for transplanting into when flowering. I started this seedling out in the same bag of OF I have been using without her having issues or getting burnt.


I've been doing coco and synthetic nutrients the last few runs without too many major issues. After seeing so many people use OF with Gaia Green and just water - I was hoping this was going to be an easier, less hands-on grow. While it's admittedly been far less work and involvement, I've had nothing but problems this run. It's very frustrating, especially seeing so many people running perfect, flawless grows without issues for their first times when I've got quite a few under my belt now (but all with coco/hydro).


According to recharge, it's not supposed to harm/burn plants? My understanding was, recharge was basically meant to be food for the beneficial bacteria inside of the soil?




Appreciate the comment about the mainline. This was the first time I've attempted it, and it turned out well. I had really high hopes for this run, but yeah - I'm not sure I can even save her at this point. Let me dig through my notes and see if I can find details of what I've fed and when.

You're definitely going to be able to save her, no worries.

 

[rasterman]

Thanks for all the help/info Ron. Really appreciate it. This has really helped me understand what I've been doing wrong with soil.

After having very complicated/cumbersome setups with both hydro and coco before this, I was looking to keep this as simple/straight forward/easy as possible - thus why I went with preloaded soil. I just wanted to find something that worked without having to screw around with stuff for once. I got so tired of measuring out everything with hydro/coco, and dealing with water changes, etc. I was hoping soil was going to be more of a 'plant it, water, and ... that's pretty much it".



Yeah, the whole light height vs intensity thing has always given me trouble. My first light I started with had no dimmer so it was always at 100%. It was much older and smaller though. Since I've gotten this new larger one, I've had a very difficult time understanding how high to raise it and what intensity to set it at. The light itself has been great, but the instructions that came with it were not real helpful.

This is a rule of thumb that I use. Start with the light high, and lower it by a couple of inches a day. Once the plants start to pray and your tent is full and you want more coverage, raise it by an inch. If you don't have anything in the corners/sides of the tent, continue daily lowering until the leaves pray at a 45° angle. At this point you're giving the plant more light than it can use, so can raise the light about an inch and you're done.

Then just look at the plants as they stretch and raise the light when their leaves get back to 45°.

 

[hm7]

I got ya bud. There is a learning curve to any grow.
I don't use any cannabis fertilizer.
I grow in 50% Peat 50% vermiculite.
Add
40 grams Dolomite lime cubic foot
10 grams Gypsum cubic foot
Watch this video to understand why.
I know he likes 20-10-20 but I like 12-4-8
This is about as easy as it gets.

Yeah this seems like the way to do it. I might have to give this in the future.

This is a rule of thumb that I use. Start with the light high, and lower it by a couple of inches a day. Once the plants start to pray and your tent is full and you want more coverage, raise it by an inch. If you don't have anything in the corners/sides of the tent, continue daily lowering until the leaves pray at a 45° angle. At this point you're giving the plant more light than it can use, so can raise the light about an inch and you're done.

Then just look at the plants as they stretch and raise the light when their leaves get back to 45°.

This is great info. Thanks! How do you handle setting the intensity though? That's what's tricky for me.

 

[rasterman]

Yeah this seems like the way to do it. I might have to give this in the future.




This is great info. Thanks! How do you handle setting the intensity though? That's what's tricky for me.

I don't know. I worked this out through observation. I just didn't want to use light meters, etc.

It appears to me that leaves grow different "stuff" depending on the quality, intensity and frequency mix of their light source. I don't know if that's true, but it's the understanding I operate under because it's helpful to me and works.

Anyway, leaves react pretty quickly to any light source. And they'll tell you what's going on long before it becomes a problem. So if you want to know if the plant can handle more light, lower it two inches and come back in two hours. Then look at the leaves. If they're wilting, raise. If they're praying hard, like more than 45°, you can either let them toughen up or raise them again. My thought is that the leaves will grow whatever they need to grow to take advantage of higher-intensity light, if you give them time to adjust.

Sorry - I know I didn't answer your question.

 

[Imzzaudae]

I meant to post this earlier but got side tracked.

 

[hm7]

I meant to post this earlier but got side tracked.

This is very helpful! Thank you! The last bit about watching the leaves to determine height makes a lot of sense.

 

[Imzzaudae]

This is very helpful! Thank you! The last bit about watching the leaves to determine height makes a lot of sense.

Oh ya. Hey bud feel free to say hello any time. I'm off helping another guy k. Hope you enjoy the information I shared. The fertilizer calculations will change how you grow for the better really really. Feel free to pm me any time.
I will pop in and out.
Ron

 

[hm7]

Oh ya. Hey bud feel free to say hello any time. I'm off helping another guy k. Hope you enjoy the information I shared. The fertilizer calculations will change how you grow for the better really really. Feel free to pm me any time.
I will pop in and out.
Ron

Just wanted to thank you again. I think she's on the road to recovery - all thanks to you! If you hadn't taken the time to chime in, I really don't think she would have pulled through, and more importantly, I wouldn't have understood what was going on, or what I did to cause the issue.


----

The one thing I miss most about hydro & coco compared to soil is the ability to fix issues fast. If there was a problem in hydro, I'd just do a res change. It's a little more difficult in soil, but this process made the most sense to me to fix things fast, so I decided late Sunday night after that I had to get her out of that super hot soil asap as she was just continuing to degrade more and more - so I did just that.


I ended up pulling her out and I tried to get all the old soil off of the rootball. I managed to get about 95% of it off, and transplanted her her into some fresh Strawberry Fields I had from the initial transplant - except I didn't add any amendments this time, only perlite. I was expecting her to have bad transplant shock from how much I handled the roots, however - there was no sign of shock at all. In fact, as soon as I got her into the fresh soil - the yellowing stopped almost instantly. I also decreased the light intensity a bit a raised it up a decent amount.

Today, she's looking much better, and she's not praying as heavily. I've lost a decent amount of the really badly burnt leaves on the bottom, and I'm sure I'll lose a few more as the days go by, but I'm not seeing any more yellowing or burning - which is great. She definitely still has lots of burnt tips/edges from all of this, but I think she'll at least make it across the line.


The only real issue I have now is I got a small amount of dirt on some of the flowers when I transplanting her into the clean soil. Trying to get as much of that off as I can. I'm hoping there's not too much stuck in the flowers.


----

It's very clear to me that I was just preemptively feeding for no reason, anticipating the soil's nutrients had been used up when they obviously had not been. I've also learned that GG is a lot stronger than I thought it was.

I'm starting to think I could have probably gone through this entire grow now without amending the soil at all, and just sticking to the 2 transplants I did (solo cup -> 3gal. 3gal -> 5gal @ flip). I think I probably would have been just fine had I done that, and also kept the light up higher and decreased the intensity a bit. All important lessons.



Thanks again for the help Ron! You've saved her for me. I appriecate your time, help, and advice!

Here's some pics of her as of today