My Coco Method

[British_Hempire]

Ello folks

Getting to thinking about setting up a new grow and was running down what I need to buy for my coco method so I figured why not share the details of how I grow.

Veg Nutrients:

1. Seaweed Extract - local UK brand or Vitax or Maxicrop or BioFito, I add this to every nute mix and also use it as a foliar spray.

2. Base Nutrient - I have used Canna Start, Formulex, Bio Biz Grow, Plagron Alga and others, all with good results, I like Fomulex a lot but these days I prefer to stick to organics and Biobizz and Plagron organic nutes have both given me good results in coco.

3. Fish Emulsion, any brand wil do, they have an ec of 5-2-2 or 5-1-1, a great way to given a nitrogen boost without the risk of frying your plants, pongs a bit but is the shizz for vegging big green healthy plants.

4. Liquid Silicon - I use Growth Technology brand because it's the cheapest and it works, give stronger stems and seems to increase overall health.

5. Rooting hormone - I used to use Rhizotonic but Roots Excelurator by H&G is even better, not cheap but works wonderfully well, I add it to every feeding in veg at 0.1ml per litre and I get explosive root growth, the seaweed extract also helps with root growth.

6. Liquid Worm Humus - I use Chempak brand as I can get it locally in the UK and it's cheap compared to other liquid humate products. There are loads of others from AN, GHE and others, I suppose they all work as they all contain humic and fulvic acids.

I start feeding freshly rooted clones and seedlings at ec 1.0, which usually works out at something like 2ml per litre fish emulsion, 2ml/l base nutrient, 2ml/l seaweed extract, 0.5ml/l liquid silicon, 1ml/l worm humus and 0.1ml/l roots excel. I slowly build up the ec levels to 1.4 or 1.5 although as I handwater I tend to alter the ec levels for each plant as I see deficiencies or clawed leaves. To be honest I rarely have any problems with deficiencies or overfert in veg as I use organics nutes with the exception of the liquid silicon.

Any comments on my veg routine?

 

[British_Hempire]

Flowering Nutrients:

1. Liquid Worm Humus - although Canna Coco A+B has humic+fulvic acids added I like to add more as it allows me to reach an ec of 2.0 with many plants.

2. Liquid Silicon

3. Seaweed Extract

4. Base Nutrient - I prefer Canna Coco A+B, works so well and I have zero problems using it so I see no reason to switch unless they produce an organic BioCanna version of their coco nutes.

5. Roots Excellurator - I use this for first 3 weeks to get the plants to fill out the larger flowering pots with roots as I usually transplant plants when I put them into flower.

6. AN Hammerhead - I used to use either Atami or Canna PK13-14 but after a tip from joeshmoe I tried AN Hammerhead and find it gives a bit more resin just as joe said it would so big props to joe for that tip. Also, it's pretty cheap compared to other AN products and often cheaper than Canna PK.

7. Canna Boost - it's so expensive but it works

8. Molasses - for sugars, I am going to experiment with other sugar sources such as white sugar (sucrose), golden syrup etc. Products like Vitrasol, Carboload and ATA Organics Flava are just molasses really and I find a cheap jar of unsulphured blackstrap from the healthfood store works just as well and it's certified organic.

9. Rooster Liquid Tomato Booster - for Potassium, I use Rooster brand liquid chicken manure as an organic source of K bu they have ceased production so I will have to find an alternative product or make my own liquid from dry chicken manure.

10. Liquid Bat Guano - for Phosphorous. I have used No Mercy and Guanokalong brands with success, there are others such as Budswel and I guess they work just as well.

My nute regime is rather complex but let me give you a rough breakdown for a typical 14 week flowering run of the type of sativas mostly grow:

Week 1 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, roots excel, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, ec 1.5 ph 6

Week 2 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, roots excel, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, ec 1.6 ph 6

Week 3 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, roots excel, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, ec 1.7 ph 6

Week 4 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 1.7 ph 6

Week 5 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 1.8 ph 6

Week 6 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 1.8 ph 6

Week 7 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 1.9 ph 6

Week 8 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, canna coco a+b, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 1.9 ph 6

Week 9 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, seaweed extract, Liquid Chicken manure, Liquid Bat Guano, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 1.9 ph 6

Week 10 - Liquid worm humus, liquid silicon, Liquid Chicken manure, Liquid Bat Guano, Canna Boost, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 2.0 ph 6

Week 11 - Liquid worm humus, Liquid Chicken manure, Liquid Bat Guano, AN Hammerhead, Molasses, ec 2.0 ph 6

Week 12 - Liquid worm humus, Molasses, ec 0.8 ph 6

Week 13 - Molasses, ec 0.6 ph 6

Week 14 - water ec 0 ph 6

That is the nute regime I used to produce 0.9w per gram with 8 plants in 1.5 litre pots of coco under a 250W HPS in a 85cm wide 45cm deep wardrobe and I have produced 45g per plant with my El Yucateca and Highland Oaxacan Gold cuts in 1.5 litre pots so I reckon it works very well, the end product is very clean as i cut out nutrient for the last 3 weeks just giving water and molasses with a lil bit of humates in week 12 to help with the uptake of the remaining nutrients held in the coco medium.

I cut out all Nitrogen after week 8, just giving P and K in the form of AN Hammerhead which gives great yield and resin production and liquid chicken manure which improves yield and bat guano which improves taste, cutting out the N really increases the density of the flowers and the plants end up with beautiful autumn colours on their leaves by the end of week 11 when I stop feeding. The 3 week flush means I lose a load of lower leaves and the others turn yellow, but I feel this is how plants should look by the time they are done - withered and yellowed foliage but glistening fat juicy buds.

 

[cway]

Man BH sounds like you got things dialed in..... I have been wanting to try coco.. I use peat but pretty much the same regime but in solid forms mixed into the medium.. I really want to give coco a go... Is your medium 100% coco or is it cut with perlite, castings or anything else.. also coco has a nuetral ph so no lime added .. what are your Cal mag sources. didnt see them? ANyhow I will be watching this one and might give coco a go next round... pretty cheap in bricks too i have seen...


also lately I have been using pure maple syrup vs molasses.. seems the buds are stinkier.. I read that Crazy Composers uses it so I gave it a go and he seems to be right.. could be me just being subjective but seems like the plant develops more terpens.. who knows but im gonna keep using it..

 

[The Joker]

It sounds so interesting. Thats some of the stuff I use for my outdoor garden...vegetables, roses etc.

I use budswell indoors with great success in terms of smell and taste. I'm not sure what it does for yield. I also use a silicate additive in veg only for root development stronger plants. I grow in hydroton.

My only question would be regarding formula. Meaning , how do you come about your amounts? For me, using GH 3 part or PBP I can measure PPM. With organics, it's a little harder. Did you keep a log and arrive at your formula through trial and error?

Chemical ferts ( according to the science) only provide nutes in the forms that the plants make for themselves. But there are many other variables in soil that have to be added. Silicate and guano are perfect examples.

I've been trying to do a semi organic, meaning using gh or PBP as a base and adding organic supplement to mimic what they would get in soil. Not for the sake of it, but for flavor really.

I thought about trying cocoa in my waterfarms, but the nutes I looked at were so expensive I decided to stick what I have.

 

[British_Hempire]

Hi guys.

That's a good point about the cal-mag cway, I see you are paying attention and understand the basics of coco! The canna coco a+b has cal-mag added, it also has humic and fulvic acids and seaweed (kelp) added too, I like to add more of these elements, the seaweed is also a source of calcium and you get trace elements in the other components too so all in all, I never see deficiencies as between all the stuff in my regime I have all the requirements of a flowering plant covered.

Hiya joker, some great points you make there, I can see you too have been doing some playing around with nutes, it's to discuss points like these that I started this thread. i workd out my regimen after a lot of experimentation and I read a large portion of the online writings on coco growing, in particular the threads by joeshmoe, obsoul, bonecarver og and Gaius Marius, I took tips from those guys and used them to develop my own regime that suits the genetics I like to grow, but I can adjust it for other strains fairly easily, takes me 3 runs to dial a plant in fairly well, after 5 or 6 I have it nailled although I've only grown a handful of cuts 5 or 6 times in coco as I love to start seeds and look for new things.

Like you, I'm trying to be as organic as possible, but I have never been able to match my results using inorganics like canna a+b and hammerhead with a purely organic regime, I get probably 30% more yield than I could with a purely organic regime and i also reckon quality is improved as I get a bit more resin, with the way I flush for 3 weeks the end product is as good if not better than any organic I've grown.

 

[hubcap]

also lately I have been using pure maple syrup vs molasses.. seems the buds are stinkier.. I read that Crazy Composers uses it so I gave it a go and he seems to be right.. could be me just being subjective but seems like the plant develops more terpens.. who knows but im gonna keep using it..

i use brown sugar, dissolved, with same results. when molasses isnt on hand.


to the coco pros....


what is your coco medium of choice? brand?


tks

 

[British_Hempire]

I like Canna, very consistent and not had a bag yet that needed flushing before use, I can strike seeds in it straight out of the bag. However I have also used a variety of cheaper bricked coco and I have to admit it works just as good if you properly pretreat it by flushing after expanding then charging with nutes at ec 1.0.

 

[Zoolander]

BH I have a question for ya , When I run my clones with my Canna A+B they never need Cal-Mag but my seedlings always need it around week 2.5 . What do you think ?

 

[British_Hempire]

Dunno zoolander, perhaps the clones establish sufficient root structure fast enough that they can absorb sufficient calmag whereas seedlings grow faster than the roots can absorb enough calmag, that's just a guess. I suggest adding seaweed extract to your seedling nute regime and see if that works, some maxicrop will do for a wee experiment, try foliar feeding too. Interesting conundrum, let us know about your experiments to resolve it. Were you giving them anything else other than the canna a+b?

 

[Zoolander]

No I just use the Canna system with a bit of molasses added in . I like the way your talking about organics in coco since I only grew in organic soil for sometime before I switched .

 

[British_Hempire]

You can do fully organic in coco, I have before and it worked fine, just the yield was a good 30% lower then the same cut done with my usual regime, I think I got 29g when I have been able to get 45g and that's a significant difference considering the quality of the organic one was no better and had less resin.

The way I went fully organic was to take my usual regime and replace the hammerhead with the liquid bat guano and chicken manure, used a local seaweed based fertiliser with an NKP of 5-6-8 and a full range of trace elements instead of canna a+b and omit the liquid silicon and canna boost.

The plant was perfectly healthy, had no deficiencies, produced great buds, just the yield was a good bit smaller and had a bit less resin. I attribute this to the lack of chemicals from the Hammerhead and Canna Boost, although for the experiment to be fairer I should have used BioBoost which is organic that would have shown me just how much a chemical PK booster like Hammerhead does actually increase resin and yield. I reckon a fair amount and the lack of an organic version of Hammerhead or PK13-14 is why I haven't gone fully organic, I just can't justify losing a third in yield for no increase in quality.

I hope to eventually figure out an organic version of my regime that doesn't sacrifice anything in yield or resin production, I will be experimenting wih a range of organic products soon and I've heard BioBoost is actually slightly better than regular Canna Boost so that's one step I can take towards being fully organic, I've already decided to switch from Canna Coco A+B to an organic alternative, so that's another element that can be made organic. The problem is finding an organic alternative to Hammerhead and I reckon I need to experiment with other bat guanos and some other organic sources of P and K but it may be the case that you simply can't beat the boost of a good old chemical PK booster.

 

[hazyfontazy]

what ec are you on when the seedlings/small plants start fading ?,, i think u just need to up dosage

most problems occur in coco because people treat it like soil ,,the seeds will need food as soon as they have a root,

i tend to start the seeds on an ec of 1 ph5.8 with rhizo or similiar rootstim ,once the first sets of leaves come i gradually increase doasage ,by week 2.5 i will be on ec1.4-1.6 ,no yellowing whatsoever and i've never ever used or needed cal/mag

 

[British_Hempire]

I agree with hazy, I start at ec 1.0 as I charge my coco with roots, humus, seaweed and formulex and when i start feeding I use ec 1.0, in fact, I don't look at it as individuals feeding, I just maintain a constant moistness of the coco using my veg nute solution and i have had zero problems. The only problems I have had in coco were with killing some seedlings by using cheap coco and not having flushed it sufficiently and root rot caused by having the pots sat in their runoff. I quickly learned to avoid letting the plants sit in the runoff and to properly pretreat my coco and since than have had no issues I can recall.

 

[Trillion]

BAC do an organic pk

 

[hubcap]

You can do fully organic in coco, I have before and it worked fine, just the yield was a good 30% lower then the same cut done with my usual regime, I think I got 29g when I have been able to get 45g and that's a significant difference

WOW!

what organic nute regime and what strain? (in coco i presume..)

great thread....
keep it up!

in the coco pros honest opinion...

generally all pre-washed coco is ok.????

any to totally stay away from????

(i understand they come from places near the sea and contain salts naturally....any brands that simply skip this process?)

ive seen amazing results with coco and i want to get it FULLY down before i commit a full rotation in it. buddies kill my averages in coco while i stick to gnarly fingernails. lol. aw well.//

so any and all info is absorbed like beer at a frat house.
(just aint pissed or puked away at the farm)

peace.
and tks guys.

 

[British_Hempire]

Thanks for the tip about the organic pk from bac, I'll check it out. I will probably get a bottle so I can try it out on some of my plants ad still use hammerhead on some of the others so I can the differences. I think banana man or sonic told me they used the bac range for a flowering run and it sucked but I am not sure, hopefully they will chime in with their experiences.

I had a full thread at another site on my organic coco experiments, I still have the files saved on dvd somewhere, I will try and dig them out.

On the subject of coco types, i say it's all good if properly pre-treated, the difference between the cheap bricked product and the expensive bagged product is that the bagged one has been pretreated by the manufacturer - canna give away a free dvd which details the whole process in a documentary video, they steam it and innoculate it with trichoderma for example, although you can just treat the cheap bricked stuff yourself at home to get the same result, you can even buy trichoderma.

For larger pot sizes, say great than 3 litres I would either add some coarser coco pieces, perlite or diahydro to increase aeration as with fine pith coco you can get some issues with compaction with a larger pot. I dont use large pots so I just use pith, either canna bagged or cheap bricked, I pretreat both, just i have a couple of extra steps to go through to prepare the bricked coco - I expand an 8 litre brick in a 20 litre bucket by adding 10 litres of water and stirring a lot, then i take out the coco 3 litres at a time into a 3.5 litre square pot and run warm water through it till the ec is negligible, then I drain it of as much moisture as I can and collect the expanded coco back in the 20 litre bucket, then I charge it by soaking it with an ec 1.0 nute mix, then it's good to go. With canna, I just take it out of the bag, fill pots with it, charge it with nutes and it's good to go.

To be honest, with canna coco you are paying for the pre-treatment, so it's upto you whether you get the raw stuff and prepare it for use or spend a bit more and get the ready to use version. Personally, I prefer to use Canna but it's not always easy to get several 50 litre sacks of coco into a grow without some hassles involving lugging heavy weights, so the conveninece of a small, compact coco brick is why I tend to often use them, and I can get them close to where I live whereas I have to travel a long way to buy a bag of canna coco. The cost of bricked coco I buy locally is half that of canna so combine that with the environmental and financial savings of not driving 200 miles round trip to buy sacks of coco and it's no biggie to spend a couple of hours expanding and flushing the stuff, it only takes a couple of buckets and some warm water.

 

[British_Hempire]

I have been using a cheap locally sourced seaweed based feed in veg instead of formulex or canna start as my base nutrient. It only costs 6.65 for 2.5 litres which makes it about a quarter the price of the canna start or formulex and it works just as good if not better, plants really do love this stuff and I love the price, the fact it's 100% organic and I'm supporting local small business.

http://www.kaysdiscountgarden.co.uk...merce?action=item;item=KAYSLSEAW2;eid=1307330

For many years, in fact from day one of my growing career I've used liquid seaweed extract as a growth and rooting stimulant, mostly Maxicrop, Chempak and Vitax brands as those are what was available in local shops and it worked. I discovered you can buy 350g of powdered seaweed for 9.50 and it makes a whopping 233 litres, so for the price of a litre of maxicrop I have a lifetime's supply of seaweed extract.

http://www.kaysdiscountgarden.co.uk...merce?action=item;item=KSSWPGS350;eid=1307334

Kays Soluble Seaweed Extract & Plant Growth Stimulant (powder), 100% soluble powder, mix and make your own seaweed feed as you want it. 350g tub which makes 233 litres of soluble seaweed food.

The Liquid Worm Humus I use comes from the same local source and at 11.99 for 2.5 litres it's a third the price of the GHE or AN humate products, I'm doubtful the expensive versions will be any more effective as they are the same basic thing - liquidised worm shit and they all have the important humic and fulvic acids.

Liquid Humus 2.5ltr. Liquid Humus is a plant stimulant containing humic acid and other organic acids and trace elements that have been extracted from organic matter. It makes fertilizers more available and therefore more effective, increasing yields and improving the final quality of produce and flowers.

http://www.kaysdiscountgarden.co.uk...ction=item;item=LH2500;eid=1307332;pid=153512

In fact, I love worm humus so much and had such success with it in my soil growing days I'm going to try mixing it into my coco on a 30% worm castings 70% coco ratio, perhaps this will allow me to omit the liquid worm castings from my regime or perhaps the combo of worm castings in the medium plus liquid humates will be really effective, who knows?

I will also probably get a bag of this Nutrimate stuff, which is a growth stimulant rich in humic and fulvic acids, sounds like worm castings and at 7.85 for 3kg it's about the same price, I'll try mixing it in the coco like worm castings.

Nutrimate is a growth stimulant rich in humic and fulvic acids. As used by show growers. Top dress - base dress at 2oz per sq metre, or mix into composts at the rate of 500g per 100lts of compost. Ideal for any plant. 3kg.

http://www.kaysdiscountgarden.co.uk...tion=item;item=NUTRIM3;eid=1307332;pid=153512

The next step after experimenting with an organic coco regime is to trying using organic ingredients to brew teas and use these with coco, perhaps a rich living organic tea brew will be more effective with coco than just using bottled liquid organics, it will certainly be cheaper as, for example, powdered bat guano is much cheaper than a bottle of liquid guano and there are a far wider range of powdered guanos available with differing NPK ratios.

One other thing I'm keen to try in coco is beneficial bacteria such as micchorizae, which is commonly available as a powder to add to soil, but would it work with coco? I am guessing that with an organic nute regime that includes things that will feed and stimulate beneficial bacterial organisms, adding michorrizae could produce very effective results. Has anyone actually tried using beneficial bacteria in coco?

 

[British_Hempire]

I've been looking at the various liquid humate products you can buy and they are all pretty expensive so I'm wondering just how these differ from the good ole cheap chempak liquid worm humus I use, perhaps they are more highly processed forms of work humus? Anyone got any comments/experiences with Diamond Nectar? I've heard that all GHE products work darn well but I've never used them. At 20 pounds for a litre, Diamond Nectar is more than four times the price of Chempak Liquid Worm Humus.

Looking closely at the two products, Diamond Nectar has an NPK of 0-1-1 and an application rate of 1-2ml per litre in hydroponics which includes coco, the Chempak product is probably very similar and I have always had great success using it so I see no reason to go for the really expensive version from a more famous source.

GHE Diamond Nectar is a premium quality fulvic acid compound. Found in the world’s best quality soil deposits, fulvic and humic acid act as a very powerful catalyst helping transport nutrients around the plant and greatly assisting in nutrient uptake. Adding Diamond Nectar to your solution is one way to really unlock the power of your chosen nutrient and create a finished product that is rich in taste and aroma.

 

[hubcap]

excellent read

 

[Abyss]

Very, very informative!! I really apprecieate throwing up the links to the cheap/quality products! Ima defiantly try to integrate this stuff into my future grow!!

If it was a soil/wormcasting/coco mix (say 30/40/30) would you have to totally change the nute concentrations?
im trying to gather all the info i can, im prepin for my first grow in few weeks!