My first grow: Valley OG in Coco w/Canna + other nutes

[bloads]

OG Raskal strain, clones purchased from PNG


My plants are deep into veg stage. A few mistakes led them to not developing as fast as they should, here is a journal documenting a bit of what happened, and hopefully, what's going to happen in the future.

Below is a couple days after I got my clones (i believe i got them december 15th). I didn't realize it at the time, but I should have waited to transplant them a few more days; when I threw them into 100% cana coco, the roots were barely showing from their starter cubes. I immediately started feeding using canna's feeding chart. These plants looked healthier on the day I bought them than they did in this picture... they started drooping a bit + browning on the edges of the leaves.
http://img818.invalid.com/img818/3272/013ys.jpg


Below is a couple days later... looks like they're doing better after shock wore off and roots got a chance to form. I had no idea about checking runoff PPM, flushing, or letting the coco dry, yet (evidence will start showing after this pic)

http://img17.invalid.com/img17/7808/014nz.jpg

This is where the guy on the left starts his downward spiral (he's just now recovering, about that same size and color now - i know it's probably not going to turn out great but it's a good learning experience). The guy on the right has started showing signs of something... can't place my finger on it.

http://img525.invalid.com/img525/263/016fud.jpg

Basically my three 'healthy' plants have always had one issue or another in the past few weeks. I'll attempt to explain more with some more pics.

Here you can see some dieing tips and edges, some angled tips, and overall the plants don't have the healthiest-of-green appearance. New growth noticeably paler than the rest of the plant (this has been plaguing me)

http://img153.invalid.com/img153/6210/017wcqb.jpg


3 grew, 1 continued to die.
http://img141.invalid.com/img141/738/020qqn.jpg

I started experimenting with topping and pinching and bending and tieing. Eventually I'll build a scrog net for these (and I won't mind tieing off if it won't work in a scrog).

http://img407.invalid.com/img407/148/021fgj.jpg
dishwasher racks are high class
http://img708.invalid.com/img708/4383/022def.jpg

http://img38.invalid.com/img38/7290/025st.jpg

During this time I realized the importance of checking runoff... i realized my ppms were coming out at about 1400, plus I had been saturating them way too much.
I also learned that I needed to use CalMag, since I was using RO (and since OG's crave it). I started using Zoolander's feed twice flush once technique (or feed thrice flush once). I followed Seamaiden's 20-30% flush rule as well. Everytime I water I use 5.8PH.
I used to airstone and/or vigorously shake air into my water, but after reading a few threads where oxygen may hamper certain enzymes, I've stopped. I also was using H202 for the first couple weeks, which I have stopped (kills life in your soil i read).

I got curious and opened up the coco on the sick plant, too roughly. I mangled the entire root structure (which had pretty much rotted away anyway), leaving a solid baseball sized lump of compacted wet coco. Basically I think I drowned this plant + I may have used the very finest coco in the bag (didn't mix it) and it clumped together way too much (or stagnant salts created a bind). I reduced the root ball to the original size of the starter cube, and put it in a small pot of mixed coco + perlite.

http://img585.invalid.com/img585/3182/023wki.jpg

I transplanted 3 into 3gallon smartpots (not removing the cocohusk-pot that they had rooted through) and this time put about a 25-30% perlite mix in with my coco (still keeping the original 100% coco original planting... yeah i'm a noob).
http://img38.invalid.com/img38/7290/025st.jpg

Right around this time I started 24/0 instead of 18/6, to makeup for lost time.

This is them, as of two hours ago.
http://img546.invalid.com/img546/2958/033lb.jpg

I've moved them from my 4lamp 4' t5 to a 600w MH, still under 24. Thinking about flipping to 12/12 any day here, I just want to get a better feel for my plant's nutrient palate first.

I can't tell what deficiency or lockout or burning I'm experiencing, it seems like multiple things at once, so for the past 1 1/2 weeks I've been going very light on the nutrients, 1/2 of what canna recommends, but heavy on cal mag and rhizotonic. When I first started watering my plants in the 3gallon smart pots, they would take 3-4 days to dry out, now my plants get droopy from thirst in <48 hours, and there's roots popping out all over the bottom of the smart pots.



Today I purchased Root Excelurator and Drip Clean. I haven't used either yet, waiting for last night's flush to dry. I'm hoping for Drip Clean to remove/prevent whatever sodium buildup I may be experiencing, and I'm hoping for Root Excelurator to grow roots high in the soil level.

I'm shooting for a PPM of 800 right now, with 200-250 of that being calmag.

Oh, I also purchased some blackstrap unsulphured molasses today, I'm planning on adding just a touch of that to encourage microbiological growth.

I use calmag when I flush.

http://img220.invalid.com/img220/4465/034xg.jpg
^^ it's hard to tell, but the coloring on two of these leaves is funky (bigger, upper left leaf is most obvious), looks like calcium deficiency to my novice eye, but I felt I was giving them more than adequate amounts of calmag. also, note the twistyness to the newer leaf.

http://img248.invalid.com/img248/4485/035xn.jpg
http://img832.invalid.com/img832/6082/031fo.jpg

I tend to remove damaged leaves when I see them... something in my head tells me that the plant's wasting energy on something that's dieing if the leaf is not removed.

I would LOVE criticism (on my lack of growing knowledge and techniques, not my photography and post length :) ).

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Your makin some serious progress there.Sounds like your on the right track.

 

[bloads]

Feeding with these nutes, as of today:

PH = 5.8 (as always)
PPM = 780
RO water

10ml Canna A
10ml Canna B
10ml Cannazyme
5ml Rhizotonic
.3ml Drip Clean (new, this feeding)
1.1 ml Roots Excelurator (new, this feeding)
1 tsp calmag
1/4 tsp b1
3/16th tsp unsulphured blackstrap molasses (new, this feeding)

using advanced nutrients PH down.
http://img228.invalid.com/img228/1558/004tnb.jpg

Two watering ago, I only had access to tap water, and I felt I had been overfeeding them, so I went VERY light on nutes. One watering ago, I just only flushed (+ calmag). So i basically left plants without nutes for a decent amount of time, and I'm starting to get an increase in leaves looking like this:

http://img511.invalid.com/img511/5093/003nr.jpg

http://img843.invalid.com/img843/6729/002owp.jpg

Notice the copper/brass coloring of the leaves. The veins aren't purple as they show in the photo, I'm just using a crappy phonecam. The stems are more purple than green, and they're also very stiff (hard to pinch, easy to snap)


Let me know if you guys want some photos w/ better light/angles.

 

[JPLord01]

Look at how my plants look. This is what the feeding is.
H&G A&B
A is 6mils
B is 6mils
Calmag+ is 5mils this has 2-0-0 that is N
CaMg+ from General Organics with no food in it. at 5mils
Root Exl 1mil
Drip Clean .4 mils
All this is at 1GL
The rest is 5 Gl
1tesp of kool bloom
1tesp of epsom salt
I mix in a 5gl bucket my ppm are at 600 to 800 ppms.
I feed for 2 or 3 days then I just water with PH CalMag at 10mils water my ph is 5.9 to 6.0.
I water every day with run off.One time a day I am finding that if a water at 7 pm
they rip hard thure the night my light comes on at 1pm and off at 7 am. So when I flip
they will get there water at 7 am in the morning when the light goes off. I will see how this will work. Room temp is 75 to 79 at night it is 68. Hum is 45 to 60 veg flower 35 to 45.

 

[bloads]

A few hours after feeding them, I noticed that the leaves started tacoing a lot, and new growth was spindly/retarded. I'm wondering if that was from too many nutes in this feeding, or if the Drip Clean was flushing my salts out of the coco, and they were collecting at the bottom of my smart pots, where the majority of the roots were. I only had about 5% runoff on last watering (mixed 2 gallons, didn't want to make another just for runoff's sake, but I think i'm going to next time.)

Today the new growth seems healthier, and there is a general healthy, uniform green starting to appear, common to all 3 plants, that I haven't been able to obtain yet. I'm thinking one more solid feed/water with these same nute levels will let me know if I'm overnuting them, or if it was the Drip Clean's first application causing a little havoc.

Pics from right now:
http://img708.invalid.com/img708/3484/001ndl.jpg


http://img291.invalid.com/img291/1505/002pkn.jpg

Roots are poking out all over the bottoms of the smart pots. I'm hoping the Roots Excelurator will increase root growth on the top part of my soil as well.

Just realized, after reading the back of Canna A + B instructions, I haven't been letting them set for "some hours" after I mix them w/my water. I wonder if PH changes after a couple hours and that's happenning in my soil, giving dif PH values that I want....

....
1tesp of kool bloom
.....

do you use bloom during veg? was reading someone else's thread that was using bloom during veg as well, I thought it was just a flowering thing.

 

[JPLord01]

Yes I do use kool bloom in veg . I'm Looking to get my N P K at
N 100
P 75
K 175 to 185
Mg 60 to 70
Ca 160 to 250
Then when my plants start to look like the feed is to hot I feed with just calmag water ph at 5.9 to 6.0. at 10 mils
If I where you I would take and water with 10 mils of calmag PH your water to 5.9.
If you have 3gl smartpots I would run like 2 gls through each pot to give them a good
flush. Let dry out a bit not bone dry but just moist. Then water with food put your calmag in first. Then add your A stir it well then let it sit for 5 mins then add your B stir sit for 5 then PH to 5.9 to 6.0 then add the rest of the food root exl, drip clean etc..
Your PPMs should be like 600 to 800 or EC 1.2 to 1.4 in veg. If you need more help just
ask I will be happy to help.

 

[Tdawg]

Ill bring the pH up to 6.0, for some reason i see less stress on plants then at 5.8. Your pots seem to be a tad big for the plant size.

Try feeding with less addictive. You can get away with just canna A and B, dont really need much because your plants are still young.

Hang in there.

 

[bloads]

Ill bring the pH up to 6.0, for some reason i see less stress on plants then at 5.8. Your pots seem to be a tad big for the plant size.

Try feeding with less addictive. You can get away with just canna A and B, dont really need much because your plants are still young.

Hang in there.

Definitely. I didn't realize the problems that too large of a pot with not enough plant/root could cause w/ watering... I really wish I would have done another pot size inbetween, or just waited for them to get very rootbound before I transfered them... they definitely weren't ready (I had no idea at the time).

a couple other things prob contributing to stress...

• I started them @ 18/6 but now am doing 24/0
• I had them in a nearly sealed closet with no ventilation until about a week ago, 60-85 humidity, now i'm at 30-45 humidity with fresh air intake.
• When I moved them from the t5 to the 600w MH, I think I had them too close... (18"). I dropped my thermometer in the water so couldn't test temps for awhile... it's finally working and the canopy was 86.8 degrees before I raised the lights.
• I topped + pinched/bent damn near everything I could, probably way too much at once. My thumb nail was a bit big + severed a couple branches as I was trying to pinch, too. Accidently snapped one of their main stalks almost completely in 1/2... duct tape + time has given it a nice sappy fix, somehow way better than any other one that I snapped.

I definitely need to get them flushed out a bit more; still have dark, papery, course leafs.

Stems are red and hard... isn't one of those phos defic. and the other potass? Seems weird (to me, it's probably not tho) that I'd have a deficiency + have nute burn, or could it be salt buildup causing lockout of the P's?

Watering with 740ppm + 5.8PH last water and my runoff was low 700's, 6.2/6.3 ph.

Oh, one other thing, I finally let my water mixture sit out for 2-3 hours after adding only the canna A + B. After doing this, then adding the rest of my ingredients, my PH was at a perfect 5.8, which has never happened. I've had to add PH down to every watering before this time... I think I'm definitely going to let my Canna A + B sit for hours (as instructions say) before I water from now on.

Here's a pic of one in normal light
http://img810.invalid.com/img810/7008/003lk.jpg

 

[Tdawg]

If anything, its best to just start over. I wouldnt deal with a plant that has too much stress early on, not a bad thing, personally i think its a great learning process as you are making corrections.

 

[JPLord01]

After roots plant in a 1/2 to 1gl pot veg it for 3 weeks then into a 3gl smart pot. with
60/40 mix coco and big chunk perlite.

 

[bloads]

In the past few days I've watered them 3x with about 50% runoff each time. I added about 560-600 ppm of nutes each time. I would put a lot of water in the pots almost as fast as possible, trying to just flood the old buildup out. I figured I wasn't exposing the maximum amount of my coco to maximum drainage by watering slowly. For the first time, water started coming out of the sides of my smart pots, about 20% of the way up. Since they've dried, there's a ton of salt residue showing, seeming to validate my thought that the outer coco had buildup (since it didn't have roots for the first couple weeks after transplant).

Results are awesome. All of my new growth is a healthy green. My new stems are thick and light green. My leaves are a uniform green, with no bending/tacoing/dieing edges. They're soft to the touch, they don't feel like leather/construction-paper/lizard-skin anymore.

These have been vegging for a long time, but it's been a great learning process. Beginning of next week I'm going to make their grow room light-tight and I'll be flipping it to 12/12. I'm also going to putup a little scrog-style net-grid to help support my short bushy guys (i've bent/trained/topped them forever so they're short and fat).

My feeding from the last 3 feeds has been

~7-8 ml Canna A
~7-8 ml Canna B
~7-8 ml Cannazyme
1/2 tsp. Botanicare cal-mag+
1/8 tsp. blackstrap molasses
1.1 ml H+G Roots Excelurator
~.33 ml Drip Clean



After realizing that I had to let my canna A + B sit out in the air for a few hours after I mixed them, before mixing more nutes + feeding, I've found that it's much easier to hit 5.8ph. My last few feedings I haven't had to add any PHdown at all, whereas I added it to every feeding before those three feedings.

http://img718.invalid.com/img718/4071/003jd.jpg

http://img190.invalid.com/img190/8206/002zt.jpg

http://img703.invalid.com/img703/8296/001ve.jpg

 

[ShivaSkunkPunk]

Nice diary, good karma on the upcoming flower, Peace SSP

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Lookin great man. Sorry I didnt help you out more on your nute mixin awhile back. I say I use immediatly but thats after it takes me 3-4 hrs to slowly add all the diif parts. I put the a in go and smoke one come back put in the b. Then go do some shit in the garden and so on. With the canna and my ro I dont use very much ph adjusters at all. Your gettin it for sure that shit lookin killer.

 

[purpleberry]

You said you watered 3 times in a few days? Are you letting them dry out between waterings? Maybe thats where the salt build up started. I use to water feed water my coco and since have switched to feed feed feed maybe water. lol Also I hit them with 10ml-12ml in veg or they will get deficiencys and get kinds yellow like yours now. Maybe someone can correct me, But Id hit them with 10-12ml AB and wait 2-3 days between watering.

 

[bloads]

You said you watered 3 times in a few days? Are you letting them dry out between waterings? Maybe thats where the salt build up started. I use to water feed water my coco and since have switched to feed feed feed maybe water. lol Also I hit them with 10ml-12ml in veg or they will get deficiencys and get kinds yellow like yours now. Maybe someone can correct me, But Id hit them with 10-12ml AB and wait 2-3 days between watering.

For the most part I have been letting them dry out... bottom dry to touch, top actually drop, bucket light. The last couple days tho, I noticed the salt after I did my first big/fast water and the runoff came out the sides, then dried.

After I saw how much salt there was, I decided it would be best to flush it again pretty quickly (did this about 20 hours later), seeing as how it was still somewhat moist, so I did another 3 gallons(3 gallons gives a lot of runoff, 2 gallons gives barely any).

I poured the 3 gallons in as fast as I could, so the water had a chance to completely saturate the bottom and seep out the sides of the smartpot, just to make sure I was getting every part of it cleaned out. If any roots became exposed on the surface of the coco, from I would cover them back up.

Watering 1 and 3, i didn't need to adjust PH. Watering 2, i was a bit light on A+B, so I needed some PH down. I used to much, then used rhizotonic to bring it up, which did not seem like it was a good idea... I got some leaf tacoing after that watering.

I watered it again, the 3rd time in 3 days w/3 gallons, to flush out the last watering w/too much phdown, and because I read about mixing nutes properly. I wasn't allowing my A + B to settle for long enough before I PHd and added additives.


If I'm only feeding w/2 gallons, it's drying out between waterings, if I'm doing it once a day. Seems like I have a healthy root structure, there's hundreds of little white root ends poking out of the bottom and sides (mainly bottom) of my smart pots.

I'm thinking the salt buildup has been there awhile, and I'm guessing it was there for a few reasons. It was there because I had no roots to absorb after I transplanted way too early. It's there because I wasn't mixing my nutes correctly, causing them to bind and become unabsorbable. I'm also thinking that since I only recently started using Drip Clean, it's probably breaking up all these things and letting them purge (complete guess).

Nice diary, good karma on the upcoming flower, Peace SSP

Lookin great man. Sorry I didnt help you out more on your nute mixin awhile back. I say I use immediatly but thats after it takes me 3-4 hrs to slowly add all the diif parts. I put the a in go and smoke one come back put in the b. Then go do some shit in the garden and so on. With the canna and my ro I dont use very much ph adjusters at all. Your gettin it for sure that shit lookin killer.

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

mitten, glad to know I was on the right track about waiting on the A + B.

http://img827.invalid.com/img827/1263/bload.gif

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Good eye purpleberry. Unless your running a fair amount of perilite you might be overwaterin. The reason hes back down to 7-8 mls is because he was getting buildup and having a 1400 ppm runoff. But I run it at 10-12 mils as well in veg and go a little higher sometimes but usually bump my flowering ppms upp with calmag And a little pk13/14

 

[bloads]

As I'm about to flip to flowering here, I'm wondering what other nutes you guys recommend getting ASAP (things that I will want to use in my first couple weeks). Along with all the nutes I mentiones previously, I also have some Canna PK 13/14 (used within the first couple weeks, is what I hear) and Canna Boost.

I don't want to rush out and buy popular nutes that people have recommended in other threads, without getting information first, since my PK 13/14 and Boost might be canna's version of the same product.

 

[Relaxed420]

Look into the following things and see if you think they might be good for your garden:

Silica
Hygrozyme
Great White
Piranha
Bud Blood
Phosphoload
Powder Kool Bloom
Green Fuse Bloom Stimulator
Gravity
Snow Storm or Purple Maxx (if you don't have purps don't spend extra on PMx)

 

[bloads]

Look into the following things and see if you think they might be good for your garden:

Silica
Hygrozyme
Great White
Piranha
Bud Blood
Phosphoload
Powder Kool Bloom
Green Fuse Bloom Stimulator
Gravity
Snow Storm or Purple Maxx (if you don't have purps don't spend extra on PMx)

I'll take a look at the list, but like I said before, I'm not exactly sure what's in these vs. what's in Canna Boost + PK 13/14, so I don't want to get something that's purpose is the exact same. Also, since there seems to be a good amount of people on this forum who've used canna, I'd love for some anecdotal info.

Ran straight water through the plants 2 nights ago (w/drip clean + calmag). Recent cold temps + grow room change (less airflow :() made them dry out a litte slower too.

After my light feeding routine over the last week and a half, and the just-water two nights ago, they're starting to show some deficiencies. There's some yellowing edges, slightly hardening/redenning stems, and stunted/slowed new growth.

Tonight's feeding is going to be the same as my previous posted feed, but I'm increasing the canna A/B to 11ml per (each). I'm removing the calmag and using that as a foliar spray (to help combat some really low RH i'm having lately) along with rhizotonic. I'll probably increase the blackstrap molasses to just under 1/4 tsp.

Waiting for my paycheck on friday to flip to flower. Need to purchase some final room items to lightproof and also to hookup my exhaust tube + fan. So far I'm only using an intake (going from my window, 8 feet to fan, 8 feet to light). Have two Vortex VTX400's (172 CFM per) for this.

edit: just fed w/ 880ppm + 5.8PH, runoffs were 450(6.2), 550(6.5), 550(6.5). My light feedings + flush left them hungry! Going to wakeup to some happier looking plants tomorrow, for sure.

 

[bong bandit]

they look great now... so we can assume that before you fixed things your ph was too low, because you were adding ph down and it chemically reacted in the medium to be lower than what you believed it was, right?

second your feeding schedule became more consistent. it seems like now you have higher nutrient concentration in your medium now which is why they are nice and green instead of pale.. am i right on all this, cause i have similar issues lol