My friends.. Please vote NO on Prop 19!

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M

MSL Foundation

Seriously I have had so many people say to me
"But it is good first step..."

and I respond No It's Not!

Just because it is a first step doesn't mean it is a good one...This first step looks like a step off a cliff....

MSL
 
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ent

From my, and our point of view as growers in the state of CA it is easy to see why we would not want this law into affect. The way it is written will shift the law enforcement away from the misdemeanors and towards the felonies by going after the people over the set limits- like the cultivators, breeders and distributors. Also the libertarian in me sees the initiative as a way of putting marijuana in a state of limbo by still reaping the rewards of fines, fee's and penalties with new legislation all the while collecting monies in the form of taxes, business permits, certifications, etc.

But from the everyday toker the points are mostly moot. You see a lot of "hey get your stoner buddy to register to vote so he can vote yes to legalize marijuana". If you go into the points above, they don't care, it doesn't affect them. What they care about is if an officer shows up to their house and smells marijuana it is no longer cause for search and seizure. Or that possession under an ounce is legal. Or you can grow plenty for personal use under a 25sq foot canopy. Or that prices will dramatically drop. Or they will be happy to see a "pack" sold in their local convenience store. If you tell them about permits and how this affects the people that made CA the mecca it is, they state it will be better than status quo (non medical users) and that "who would know where i got it, that i didn't grow it" etc- loopholes.

The OP has a couple good points, but is mostly sensational. Marc Emery's response on cannabisculture was much better than the piece by Dragonfly from an everyday users standpoint.

http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/c...ES-California-Control-Tax-Cannabis-Initiative

So my question is, why should an everday toker vote NO on prop 19?

I'm not trying to come off as combative, I'm just being realistic as to what I'm facing when talking with people.
 
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kushpheen

Since California will make possession of less than an ounce a civil infraction with a max $100 fine, it makes more sense economically from the average smokers viewpoint to pay an occasional fine vs being taxed each time you choose to light a joint. What consumers need to understand is these gardens will charge as much as the market will bear for their products. If local dispensaries and recreational retail outlets are regulated by law to be supplied from one of these licensed gardens, these retail outlets will be held hostage by the few licensed suppliers. Since quality or variety aren't the goals of gardens pursuing 60 million dollar sales forecasts, the average smoker needs to be reminded that in Cali cannabis is essentially legal and the price just simply reflects the quality. If you think 'legalized' cannabis will bring the price down for the average consumer, your right, it will bring it down to the level of its quality.

What California patients need is an open farmers market where growers can connect directly with patients and exclude the dispensaries altogether. If you really want to lower the price of cannabis for patients and consumers the middle men need to be eliminated.
 
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kushpheen

The tax money created from cannabis sales goes directly back into funding the war on drugs, not schools, not parks, not social services, it goes back into the police dept hands to wage war on the people possessing more than an ounce, the people growing in areas larger than 5x5, and the minors smoking in the park.
 
B

BlueRhino

Shame on Marc, he is trying to sell this notion that you can grow Cannabis for $12.50 per ounce at home - no experience needed. So correct me if I'm wrong in my calculated estimate. When I was living in California, I was paying approximately 0.42 cent per Kilowatt hour. A 1000W bulb burning 18 hours for 30 days is 540kWh/month in VEG, and 360kWh/month in FLOWER. Marc states you can yield a 1.0 LBS / 10 weeks. So I assume 2 weeks in VEG and 8 weeks in FLOWER. This comes out to be 990kWh / grow or $415.80 / grow in electricity. Already we are looking at $2079 in electricity per year for only a 1000W bulb burning. Then in a 5x5 space you can only fit 5 plants optimally, and you can't have a mom/clone room, so your buying genetics from the club at $15.00 - $20.00 / clone. Well here is what I came up with:

Electricity: $2100.00 / year
Water: $300.00 / year
Soil: $120.00 / year
Fungicide: $100.00 / year
Insecticide: $150.00 / year
Nutrients: $600.00 / year
Genetics: $400.00 / year
Buckets/trays: $30.00 / year
Misc harvest Equip: $250.00 / year.
Grow Tent: $250.00 / year. (one time buy hopefully)

I approximated about $4300.00 per year is spent for a 5x5 1000W grow space with no CO2/Humidity/Temp Control. Now how much do you think we will yield off of a two week VEG (1 week of transplant shock, no growth), no CO2, no Temp/Humidity Control, in a grow tent. My guess is 1.5 - 2 ounces at best per plant for the novice grower. That's 7.5 - 10 ounces per grow. That is 37.5 - 50 ounces per year. Let's split the difference and say 43.75 ounces per year. That comes out to be approximately $100.00/ ounce. Oh, but wait, I forgot to put in the cost for the growers blood/sweat/time and tears. So let's double it, and say $200.00 / ounce. Well paying $240.00 / ounce in the clubs doesn't seem so bad. $200.00 to the grower (which is only making $100.00), and $40.00 goes to the club for distribution charges.

Marc, you should know better, shame on you. Or maybe that's the true reason your seeds suck!! You only give them $12.50 worth of attention.

BR
 
D

dan kone

4
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Myth #5: Adults 21 and over will be able to possess up to one ounce of marijuana without penalty.
Fact: Perhaps the most ironic piece of the puzzle is that the initiative to legalize marijuana actually makes it illegal to possess marijuana if it was purchased anywhere other than the very few licensed dispensaries in the state.[12] So if this initiative passes, better not get caught carrying marijuana you bought off your neighbor, your current dealer, or at a party; you could get arrested. And if you do buy from a licensed dispensary, better keep your receipts, because the burden of proof will be on you.

Ok. So this list of "facts" is claiming that prop 19 will somehow completely reverse the foundation of the US justice system making people guilty until proven innocent?

lol.

Either the person who wrote this is completely ignorant to the way our legal system actually works or they are just lying to scare people into voting against prop 19.

Either way, anyone making such claims should not be taken at face value. When you read random blogs off the internet the first thing you should ask yourself is "is this information accurate?" and then find out for yourself.

In this case, it's clearly not accurate.

Myth #10: Medical marijuana patients would be exempt from the initiative.
Fact: This is not exactly true.

No. That is exactly true. The idea that prop 19 somehow eliminate your rights as a prop 215 patient once again demonstrates either a complete ignorance to the way our legal system works or a willingness to intentionally spread misinformation.

I'd like to hear some one answer this question. If prop 19 is so bad then why do people need to lie to oppose it?

Please people, don't let people trick you into voting against an end prohibition based on misinformation and scare tactics.

Voting against prop 19 is siding with the cops to keep prohibition in place.
 
markscastle

markscastle

Well-Known Farmer
http://stash.norml.org/californias-prop-19-a-word-for-word-analysis

Proposition 19 in no way supersedes, negates, or invalidates the rights given to us by Prop 215.

Maybe but what about Kelly vs. the People? prop 19 sets limits not afforded in 215 and judicial ruling could be out weighed by prop 19 making limits to amounts,plant count and places you could smoke medical marijuana.Further 215 allows minors marijuana with both parent permission and a doctors recomendation. But prop 19 could enull that because of again smoking ,allowing minors to smoke,ect. And it would be up to interpitation of the courts regardless because of constitutionallity! Oh just how close to minors is near? in an other room? out side the house? Off the proprety? 100 ft away? 1000 ft away? I don`t want to have to hide to smoke marijuana because I feel there is nothing wrong with it! I`m voting No on prop 19! Hell I can have a beer at a base ball game or at the races in public why does prop 19 treat marijuana different than Alcohal? Thought that was one of the selling points wasn`t it? To tax it and treat it like alcohal under the law?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
Local law enforcement wipe their collective asses with Kelly vs The People. When my son went back (he's still battling, btw) to get his confiscated weed, they literally laughed in his face and said, "Try harder." He'll have to get his attorney involved, for about a zip? That costs far too much, and the sheriff's department knows this.
 
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edux10

^^^ this happened to me. They said i needed the DA to sign off on it, or write them a letter releasing it from evidance. No WAY the DA is going to do that.

They flat out steal from you.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
^^^ this happened to me. They said i needed the DA to sign off on it, or write them a letter releasing it from evidance. No WAY the DA is going to do that.

They flat out steal from you.
Not to mention that what they told you you "need" to do is flat out WRONG. They are already legally compelled to give you back your weed, your equipment, and anything else associated with your status as a MMJ patient.

Never take a cop's word for it on what the law is. EVER. Even an attorney can be wrong in their interpretation of the law, but at least they're studying law and not enforcement.

A couple of weeks ago I had to call the police on my husband's ex-wife. Deputy showed up and tried to tell me what the law is about property. I had to inform him that he was, in fact, mistaken about the law regarding gifts and whose property a gift not given in consideration becomes, and the fact that it no longer belongs to the giver. I informed him that the proper place for this to be hashed out was not with her blocking our driveway, it was in a civil court. Just get the psycho-bitch who would strip her own granddaughter of everything off our fucking property! Took a while, but I got my way.

Another instance is with motorcycles that use devices that cause the headlight to dim and brighten in a rapid cycle (can't remember what they're called!), which makes them much more visible to oncoming traffic. Many police have no idea that there is not only a state law allowing it, but that there is a federal law that disallows disallowing this lifesaving device. Riders who have it installed actually have to keep a printout of the applicable laws to show uninformed police.

Never rely on a cop's word on what the law is. Ever.
 
N

noone88

http://vote96.sos.ca.gov/bp/215text.htm

Prop 215 was pretty vague as well. Limits were not established until SB 420 was passed.

I would like to think that all these little steps will pave the way toward complete state & federal legalization. Without 215, there would be no 420. Without 215 and 420, there would be no talk of Pro 19.

If the anti-prohibitionists are looking for the "magic bullet" to end the war on drugs, it's not going to come in one fell swoop. It's the small victories that matter.

Maybe but what about Kelly vs. the People? prop 19 sets limits not afforded in 215 and judicial ruling could be out weighed by prop 19 making limits to amounts,plant count and places you could smoke medical marijuana.Further 215 allows minors marijuana with both parent permission and a doctors recomendation. But prop 19 could enull that because of again smoking ,allowing minors to smoke,ect. And it would be up to interpitation of the courts regardless because of constitutionallity! Oh just how close to minors is near? in an other room? out side the house? Off the proprety? 100 ft away? 1000 ft away? I don`t want to have to hide to smoke marijuana because I feel there is nothing wrong with it! I`m voting No on prop 19! Hell I can have a beer at a base ball game or at the races in public why does prop 19 treat marijuana different than Alcohal? Thought that was one of the selling points wasn`t it? To tax it and treat it like alcohal under the law?
 
D

dan kone

4
3
No No No!!!

Saying no three times doesn't make what I said less true. The original linked post contains lies and/or misinformation. In my opinion people shouldn't form their opinions based on misinformation. That's pretty reasonable right?

The Bill Sucks bro! :mooning
RL and his "Prop19 Cartel" think its 1940! its NOT! Its 2010 and Marijuana is already legal in Calif!!
If it aint broke dont fix it!!
And just this tidbit of the bill is enough for me to say it sucks.

Vague notions of conspiracy theories aren't a good reason to vote against prop 19. I prefer to form my opinions based on solid facts. If you some facts about why prop 19 does more harm than good then I'd be happy to listen. But scare tactics based on some invented fictional cartel are not going to work on me.

Guess what everyone? The same cities that dont want it now, Which is most of them, take a fuken look!! They aint gonna allow it 19 passes either.

It's not up to them. Prop 19 forces cities/counties to allow possession/cultivation.

Your gonna have the Long Beach, Oakland , Mendo cities that are already compassionate.

And humboldt, San Francisco, Sacramento, Santa Cruz, etc....

What makes anyone think for a split second all off a sudden all the cities are gonna say, "Oh 21 and older" thats cool. Not gonna happen.

The law makes me think that. Laws are not arbitrary. They can't just decide they don't like the law so they are going to throw you in jail even though what you are doing is not illegal under state law.

This whole talk of a prop 19 cartel that is going to control the entire state cannabis market is just silly. The DEA has already announced they aren't even going to allow these massive scale cannabis farms. Even if they did I'd like someone to explain to me why they think everyone in California is all of a sudden going to want to buy the ditch weed that Richard Lee grows.

People are letting their imaginations get in the way of the facts. California has thousands of Cannabis clubs, Richard Lee owns 1 of them. The idea that he can control the entire California cannabis market is laughable. Richard Lee doesn't even have the top grossing club in his own city. The idea that he can take over the state when he can't even beat the competition in his own city is pretty lol.
 
G

growermike666

Vague notions of conspiracy theories aren't a good reason to vote against prop 19. I prefer to form my opinions based on solid facts. If you some facts about why prop 19 does more harm than good then I'd be happy to listen.

here are some interesting facts for you;

Right now under current marijuana law one can possess an unlimited amount, under draconian prop 19 one can can only posses an ounce.

under current marijuana law one can grow in an unlimited area, under prop 19 one can grow only in a 5x5 area per parcel.

under current marijuana law one can grow and legally collect "reasonable compensation" for their medicine. Again draconian prop 19 would strip away that freedom too.

smoking in public~right stripped by prop19

thats just a few of the facts.. I'm not trying to change your mind, your cup is full.. but those are facts and only a few of the reasons why prop 19 is draconian drug law and much more prohibitive than the current marijuana law we have today.
 
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noone88

here are some interesting facts for you;

Right now under current marijuana law one can possess an unlimited amount, under draconian prop 19 one can can only posses an ounce.

under current marijuana law one can grow in an unlimited area, under prop 19 one can grow only in a 5x5 area per parcel.

under current marijuana law one can grow and legally collect "reasonable compensation" for their medicine. Again draconian prop 19 would strip away that freedom too.

smoking in public~right stripped by prop19

thats just a few of the facts.. I'm not trying to change your mind, your cup is full.. but those are facts and only a few of the reasons why prop 19 is draconian drug law and much more prohibitive than the current marijuana law we have today.

Under current marijuana law, possession is illegal unless you have a recommendation.

Under current marijuana law, cultivation is illegal unless you have a recommendation.

Prop 19 does not in any way negate, supersede, or render Prop 215/SB420 invalid. Collective cultivation will still be an option regardless if Prop 19 passes or not.
 
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