MYTH: more roots= better yield

[blazer]

plants 1 and 2 looking fairly identical. Plant 2 has way less roots.

hit a snag with some rot. My water temps are 77. I added my root pack and started getting white roots again.

Really need a chiller though. the new system has a 1800 gph pump runing 24/7 and keeps my water temps too high for my taste.

ALTHOUGH:: If you research nutrient uptake, plants actually pull more nutes when root temps are higher (80ish).

Next run I may get a chiller for one side, and leave the other side warm. See what happens.

Def did notice when my water temps and indoor temps got high I noticed explosives growth, then get temps where I wanted then growth slows to more normal would start getting green on my rocks and more crap in my water so I keep temps lower now .hunh!

 

[Capulator]

http://books.google.com/books?id=3u...esnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwADhG#v=onepage&q&f=false

here is an awesome read that shows the correlation between solution temps and nutrient uptake.

25 C seems to be the sweet spot. 77 degrees F. that's a lot warmer than 68, what so many people say is ideal...

My goal right now is to keep healthy roots at warmer temps. I think I can achieve this if I am consistent with the application of my root pack, which has the beneficial microbes that will out compete and literally devour any emerging harmful fungi.

 

[HydroRocks]

Hey Cap, we did testing about 2 years ago to see what the ideal temps would be. We came up with 72F to 75F as the best temps. The real myth is that higher temps cause pathogens which is untrue of course.

If you also notice that cloning machines usually run warmer temps as well which is what originally gave us the idea that maybe these colder temps are not the best after all.

 

[CelticEBE]

Great thread. I think there is truth in this. I know that it also depends on the medium you are in and how often you make water and nutrients available to the plants. I have a friend who has been growing for some time and he runs in one gallon pots with rockwool coutons and hydroton on a flood and drain tables. His plants are huge and he KILLS it.

I've heard a few oldshool guys tell me that roots aren't all that important if you are set up like that. Whereas if you are relying on your medium to water and feed the plants a larger root base and substrate are important. It makes sense to me anyway.

 

[El Cerebro]

Cap, you still playing with this, any interesting findings?

 

[Capulator]

Cap, you still playing with this, any interesting findings?

I finished the experiment. Both plant yielded roughly the same, but I got a little root rot so I have no conclusive results. All I know is I have seen some major plants in 5 gallon buckets, DTW top feed. COnstant supply of nutes and water, roots dont need to search...

 

[soultouch]

You are not the only one who has this concern. Read the first page if you want to see others express the same concern before you have here.
-Meeks

I think it is an interesting speculation that a smaller root mass may produce equal flower yields. In all sorts of food crops, plants or trees are deliberately stressed to fruit more heavily. However, i tend to think more unrestricted growth, less stress will more likely produce more biomass, but not perhaps as much thc or some other wanted result. One way to conduct this experiment in hydro is too simply simply a small and large container and weigh the root mass after harvest as well as flower yield, If using some kind of media, one must record the original volume and oven dry weight of the soil before and after the experiment. If there are a lot of organics in the media, some may oxidize and some media may settle or collapse during the grow, bur useful info can be gleaned. For instance a larger pot may have a lot of roots at the bottom but the roots in the smaller pot may be forced to exhaust all the media volume so while the smaller pot may appear to have less roots, it may have a more fibrous and packed (rootbound mass). Only way to tell, is to weigh the root biomass at harvest and subtract weight of original media in each pot.
Example If large pot 5 gallon bucket holds 5 times as much volume and logically 5 times the soil weight, of a true 1 gallon bucket. For the best comparison both the buckets need to be the same height or the shorter pot or bucket will always have less airspace. Take a kitchen sponge. hold suspended flat and let water drain, then turn short side up and more water will drain...then stand in tallest orientation and even more water will drain. In all case same sponge which held as much water against gravity in each orientation. Say we fill with coir which a 5 kilo block 11 pounds yields about 2 to 2.25 cubic feet or 15 to 17 gallons or .64 to .73 pounds per gallon or 10.24 oz to 12 oz per gallon dry. 5 gallon = 3.66 pounds and one gallon pot about .73 or about 12 oz dry coir. Let us say 5 gallon pot yields 1 pound of bud and the 1 gallon pot yields 8 oz, one could reason 16oz bud per = 5 gallon volume soil vs 8 oz bud per 1 gallon soil volume. The smaller pot would yield 40 oz bud for same soil volume vs 16 or 2.5 times bud yield for equal soil volume. However upon weighing the root mass - weight of soil you were to discover the roots in the small pot weighed the same after subtracting soil weight, you could further conclude that yield was actually stunted by constricting the root zone in volume which forced a change in root morphology to a more fibrous root zone equal in root biomass to the larger pot where the roots were never forced to exploit the full root volume. S o is the smaller pot good or bad,,,DEPENDS, IF containers are cheap one might choose to grow 5 xs the number of plants while using only as much soil volume as a 5 gallon grow might use...thus for 2.5 times the bud yield for same soil volume and same root biomass..just less bud per plant. I am just making these numbers up, but i will conduct such a study at some point in 2020 and share the results.
I can almost guarantee, that pruning the roots on a frequent basis will wound the plant and pruning at longer intervals would cause even more shock. One could groe in tight mesh that entraps then constricts and prunes the roots or use a copper hydroxide root pruner such as spinout treated fabric pots to chemically and nearly instantly prune root tips as they contact high copper concentrations to produce a similar effect

 

[Hidd3nGr0w]

Isn't this the same reasoning of a Sea of green grow? More plants, smaller pots, shorter veg = 1 plant, large pot, longer veg? Or, are you saying growing the same size plant in a 2 gal pot one would in a 5 gal inexpensively, due to less medium being used?

 

[plumsmooth]

When I first started growing in RDWC I had roots that lined the bottom of the Waterfarm bucket. Now in my Power Grower RDWC these days I am not getting that continuation past a certain point. And, I am vegging way longer.

I am confused because I will like the root system needs to be bigger to support 1 Pound Plants. And I feel like if I did something better I would get 18-20 ounce per plant after a 8-10 week vegetive time period. These are Low Stress Training Trees measuring 3 by 4.5 feet long each under 2 315 CMH total 630 watts with an additional HLG 100 in the middle total 730 watts per plant. I am starting to wonder if I am using too much bennies?

Anyway I am also wondering if I am vegging to the point of some senescence?

 

[SaintsSamilia]

I would have to disagree on the root masses not making a difference the same as medium not making difference anymore... but still got 3 months till I know if same nutes lights just soul vs water makes a difference but yeild or size is definitely controlled by roots the 1 gallon, plastic cup challenges without watering those plants well pretty much hourly id guess if a 5 7 gallon can only get a day between waterings. Without those 500 feedings a day those plants don't even exist the only reason some and not many are grown to that size is a very strict feeding schedule

 

[SaintsSamilia]

But even if I disagree im very interested to see the result. I'm doing an organic soil vs organic hydro run currently same exact everything in a way sorta doing this test myself. Not necessarily for the smaller sizes although there seems to be pretty hot debates about all that... but another thread another story all im waiting on for that part of the test is my Auto's because in the end I believe thats what they where designed for was the speed involved for the highest yield from a smaller plant again i definitely could and possibly am wrong there but that being said waiting on autos to run against my photos in this hydro vs soil grow because if I throw these autos in the ground and walk away and they yield anything like I believe they can i may go down to one big big plant while the variety of life comes from those little guys in and out another tent every other day it seems like. Looking forward to your grows information

 

[Aqua Man]

But even if I disagree im very interested to see the result. I'm doing an organic soil vs organic hydro run currently same exact everything in a way sorta doing this test myself. Not necessarily for the smaller sizes although there seems to be pretty hot debates about all that... but another thread another story all im waiting on for that part of the test is my Auto's because in the end I believe thats what they where designed for was the speed involved for the highest yield from a smaller plant again i definitely could and possibly am wrong there but that being said waiting on autos to run against my photos in this hydro vs soil grow because if I throw these autos in the ground and walk away and they yield anything like I believe they can i may go down to one big big plant while the variety of life comes from those little guys in and out another tent every other day it seems like. Looking forward to your grows information

Given all things equal including veg time hydro will absolutely kill soil... its not even a maybe. The growth rates are extremely different. I haven't done a single test but I can say growing in 1 gal pots with enough feed frequency.... I dont belive the more roots more fruits but rather the bigger the plant the more fruits and if the root system has enough mass to feed the size of the plant and access to adequate nutrients then anything more is just.... well not needed.

 

[Jumpingspider]

Although I'm all for myth busting and testing ideas, I wonder... the only reason to add a process such as root pruning would be to improve something. So unless you'd see some added benefit like significant increase in yield or quality, or increase speed of maturity or save more time and labor on other aspects of the operation than time invested in pruning roots, there's no real reason to add the process. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Also, I thought the OP was from 2021 lol got those 2 numbers mixed up. But I'm glad this thread got resurrected. It's something I've been wondering about myself. I root pruned the heck out of one of my autos and it stayed super short and matured weeks earlier, but they were very unstable with a wide range of phenos so nowhere near an empirical study.

 

[Aqua Man]

Although I'm all for myth busting and testing ideas, I wonder... the only reason to add a process such as root pruning would be to improve something. So unless you'd see some added benefit like significant increase in yield or quality, or increase speed of maturity or save more time and labor on other aspects of the operation than time invested in pruning roots, there's no real reason to add the process. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Also, I thought the OP was from 2021 lol got those 2 numbers mixed up. But I'm glad this thread got resurrected. It's something I've been wondering about myself. I root pruned the heck out of one of my autos and it stayed super short and matured weeks earlier, but they were very unstable with a wide range of phenos so nowhere near an empirical study.

Im not referring to root pruning but more the fact that I don't think we need the space we think we do for roots as long as they are getting what they need.

Basically the size of the rootball imo is not directly related to the yield as was stated forever now and still continues.... "more root more fruits" I don't buy it and feel the bigger the plant the more fruits... the roots only need to be adequate enough to supply the size of the plant. I think its directly related to if the roots have enough of what they need. Sure in organics you may benefit from a larger pot size to supply enough nutrients... but thats not a root size issue.

 

[SaintsSamilia]

Given all things equal including veg time hydro will absolutely kill soil... its not even a maybe. The growth rates are extremely different. I haven't done a single test but I can say growing in 1 gal pots with enough feed frequency.... I dont belive the more roots more fruits but rather the bigger the plant the more fruits and if the root system has enough mass to feed the size of the plant and access to adequate nutrients then anything more is just.... well not needed.

I definitely agree it wasn't as much on the tiled side other my personal first hydro grow it was more for the taste side in my case I've always been curious as to how right or wrong the soil water argument is flavor wise. Wow is all I can say to some of this micro pot/mega grows and again I agree with the feeding schedules. Just never really thought of it from the smaller or cropped roots aspect but with enough food any size roots could grow huge plants i agree

 

[Jumpingspider]

Im not referring to root pruning but more the fact that I don't think we need the space we think we do for roots as long as they are getting what they need.

Basically the size of the rootball imo is not directly related to the yield as was stated forever now and still continues.... "more root more fruits" I don't buy it and feel the bigger the plant the more fruits... the roots only need to be adequate enough to supply the size of the plant. I think its directly related to if the roots have enough of what they need. Sure in organics you may benefit from a larger pot size to supply enough nutrients... but thats not a root size issue.

I hear ya. I wasn't really responding to your comment specifically just to the OP.

I don't have any experience with DWC. Just soil years ago and now 1 and a half coco grows under my belt.

I will add that I did finish my autos in 1gal nursery containers (coco) after transplanting from solo cups, and at some point the coco got so compacted that i had to stick a poker into the coco to get the water to flow freely through the pot. I probably should have been feeding more often than I was so that could have slowed them down a bit too.

But would they have yielded more in a larger container? Maybe only because the roots would have more opportunity to access solution because more coco = longer moisture retention but that is a different story than DWC

 

[Aqua Man]

I hear ya. I wasn't really responding to your comment specifically just to the OP.

I don't have any experience with DWC. Just soil years ago and now 1 and a half coco grows under my belt.

I will add that I did finish my autos in 1gal nursery containers (coco) after transplanting from solo cups, and at some point the coco got so compacted that i had to stick a poker into the coco to get the water to flow freely through the pot. I probably should have been feeding more often than I was so that could have slowed them down a bit too.

But would they have yielded more in a larger container? Maybe only because the roots would have more opportunity to access solution because more coco = longer moisture retention but that is a different story than DWC

Feeding mine at 14x a day right now. I forgot the feed timer 2 times and dam near killed em.... but before that they were fine.

 

[Jumpingspider]

Feeding mine at 14x a day right now. I forgot the feed timer 2 times and dam near killed em.... but before that they were fine.

Apologies if you already mentioned, what method do you use with that 14x daily feeding? Coco? What size pot etc?

 

[Aqua Man]

Apologies if you already mentioned, what method do you use with that 14x daily feeding? Coco? What size pot etc?

Yeah coco 1 gal. Some older pics... I'll grab some new ones later and post in my thread. The pic of the roots is from all the way back on dec first lol

 

[Jumpingspider]

One potential net positive from pruning roots in a DWC is to maintain a smaller size reservoir to save on materials and labor? Or more plants without overcrowding the root zone... or if your roots tend to grow into the plumbing and clog up the works. Shooting from the hip here.

basically the benefit of Avoiding whatever pain is associated (labor and materials cost) could potentially outweigh the time taken in the root pruning process. But I somehow I doubt that. Most likely you won't see any different results and so the process is pointless.

Like I said just because you can don't mean you should.