Negative and positive pressure

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m1rage

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Hey, I am just wondering approximately what size (CFM) in line fans fans I should use in my new setup. I plan to run 4k in air cooled hoods, 2 in each row, inside of a growlab 290 tent (10x10x7) in my unfinished basement. I want to bring in cool air from outside of my house into the tent, and then leave one end of ducting on the two of the hoods open, and hook another in line fan at the end of the 4 ballasts to pull hot air out of my room and into another portion of my house. I am wondering what size fan to use to bring air in from outside, and what size fan I should be using to pull air out of the room, through the four air cooled hoods. Also wondering whether I should be attempting to create a slightly negative or slightly positive pressure within the tent itself, as I have read that they can collapse if exhaust far exceeds intake. Thanks!!
 
sedate

sedate

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m1rage said:
I want to bring in cool air from outside of my house into the tent, and then leave one end of ducting on the two of the hoods open, and hook another in line fan at the end of the 4 ballasts to pull hot air out of my room and into another portion of my house.

Um. I think you'd find that amount of heat somewhat difficult to deal with in a confined space like a house.

You should design your system so it exhausts straight out of the house - your airflow design is kind of backwards.

I would probably mate an 8" cannon fan per pair of lights - something like this:
 
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m1rage

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Thanks for your reply, sedate. I had thought that I might be able to pull the hot air into the first floor of my house and use it to heat the area. I had kind of figured I might need one fan per row of 2 lights. If I were to just pull air out of the room and exhaust it outside of my house, wouldn't it create a lot of negative pressure within the grow tent? Could I just crack a basement window to have a bit of passive intake going on, and draw some cooler air? Appreciate ya breaking it down, we all started somewhere... my first multiple light grow here
 
sedate

sedate

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m1rage said:
Thanks for your reply, sedate. I had thought that I might be able to pull the hot air into the first floor of my house and use it to heat the area.

For some reason people always try to do this - but getting away with it is *really* application specific.

I would sort of assume you are carbon treating the air? You won't like that smell - it smells like a hospital.

I would recommend using your furnace to heat your house and dump the exhaust air from the lights outside.

I don't think you are going to collapse your tent - but if it is an unfinished basement - why are you using a tent anyway? Rafters are mighty convenient. My shit is in a basement and I had to build massive 2x4 frames. Fucking pain.

m1rage said:
Could I just crack a basement window to have a bit of passive intake going on, and draw some cooler air?

Crack a window? Um. That would probably not be my design choice and I'd have to sort of see a floor plan of your house and relative geographic location to tell you for sure. So - it depends on a number of things - but I imagine it is highly unlikely.

m1rage said:
Appreciate ya breaking it down, we all started somewhere... my first multiple light grow here

Right.

I think you are sort of underestimating the scope of what you are doing.

You should be building a window insert and blacking out the window you are talking about. Dump 1500 CFM or so directly out the window from the reflectors.

Then you can let your room pull your house ambient vis-a-vis the Bernoulli effect - or build a specialty intake that pulls air in from a nonadjacent outside airspace to the one you are exhausting to. Make sure you put a dust-shroom or wrap it in pantyhose or something - insect-sized screens are not sufficient - cannabis pollen is in the air.
 
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m1rage

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I scrapped plans of framing a room after I thought about the time I would spend building a frame, drywalling, and putting in a door... to me it was easier and more cost effective to get a tent for my rental house until I can buy my own home and put as many nails in the wall I desire...The tent is tall as hell and I did have to temporarily take down a section of furnace ducting (which happens to heat the bathroom and kitchen of the house, starting to get chilly). It is for this reason I wanted to exhaust the lights into the house. Point taken on the carbon scrubbed air, hadn't considered that-would an alternative to venting the hoods outside be to vent them to the first floor, and then exhaust the carbon scrubber outside? Or do I need to be venting at least 1500CFM outside from hoods only?


As far as layout and geographic location, our climates are probably pretty similar (MI and CO), probably a bit warmer here... night time temps (when I will have the lights going) are around 30 and continue to drop here. I am not set on intake/exhaust , I am considering placing a portable A/C outside of the tent, in the basement, and using ducting and a fan to pump cool air in from the air-conditioner (via a small lung box if I use window unit, or via ducting/dryer venting if I use portable). I have looked at window units and roll around units, unfortunately a split would be too pricey at this current moment but would consider it after harvest. Thanks for your help , I am underestimating the scope of things right now, it is a big jump for me from 1K to 4K. I learn something everyday and it is nice to have some people to ask questions of-may be asking dumb or repeat questions but sifting through ridiculous incoherent posts on this forum for hours is a head ache at times.
 
sedate

sedate

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m1rage said:
I scrapped plans of framing a room after I thought about the time I would spend building a frame, drywalling, and putting in a door... to me it was easier and more cost effective to get a tent for my rental house until I can buy my own home and put as many nails in the wall I desire.

Um. I mean a simple 2x4 frame. Like this:

MayJuneGrowWerk2011_069.jpg


See it along the top and along the sides of the pics?

I have two frames sitting 24" apart. Each one is 8' high, 8' long, and 4' across.

Unlimited mounting options.
 
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BrightLights53

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kind of off subject, but how do you like those super blues? and how come only one?
 
sedate

sedate

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BrightLights53 said:
kind of off subject, but how do you like those super blues? and how come only one

That room has 6kw - there is a second dual-arc sort of to the right of me when I'm taking that pic.

My first four 1000's were standard HPS's - when I picked up my last two, the dual-arcs were on special and I was reading a lot about spectrum and Chlorophyll A & B - so I picked 'em up instead of the standard HPS.

Honestly I'm not that thrilled. As far as I can tell they perform about like a standard 1000. They don't quite have the firepower of an HPS but I'm not sure the plants can tell.

Usually enhanced spectrum is met with claims of noticeably increased trichome production, less distance between internodes - but I really can't tell you I noticed anything even when making a point to a keep a plant sandwiched between both dual-arcs.

I'm firmly in the "intensity" end of the "intensity v spectrum" debate at this point.
 
Purpstickipunch

Purpstickipunch

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Nice setup Sedate! Why don't you have a hood? Just curious?
 
sedate

sedate

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purpsticki said:
Nice setup Sedate! Why don't you have a hood? Just curious?

Shit that's nothing. Thanks though. I have fun with it.

Actually - that run you see above was from July. That run was actually fucking garbage. I couldn't pull off what I'm linking to below. Actually, in retrospect, I sort of wonder if I had root-aphids. The whole run was mysteriously garbage. Either way - I went back to hydro.




Vert lighting offers far more ultimate possibilities.

The trade-offs are more electricity and space - but cooling and room airflow get a bit simpler and less expensive.
 
sebastien420

sebastien420

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Um. I mean a simple 2x4 frame. Like this:

MayJuneGrowWerk2011_069.jpg


See it along the top and along the sides of the pics?

I have two frames sitting 24" apart. Each one is 8' high, 8' long, and 4' across.

Unlimited mounting options.

i like this setup..easy and proper nice job
 
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mountaindank

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All good advice here. I do have to say though, depending on how far north you are and what your winter weather is like, using your grow to heat your house is not only practical but incredibly cost-effective for a portion of the year. I live in Minnesota, and I have been saving loads on my heating bill by blowing the hot, carbon filtered air straight into the ductwork. I have the furnace fan set to always on, and it burns gas when necessary to further raise the temperature. I have 1200W of lights in the basement, and I keep them on from midnight until noon, peak heating demand. The furnace still turns on, but not as much. I think that for December/January/February I could have 2000W of lights or more and the furnace would still kick on. For me 1000W is practical from September or October until April or May, depending on the weather that year.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
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I scrapped plans of framing a room after I thought about the time I would spend building a frame, drywalling, and putting in a door... to me it was easier and more cost effective to get a tent for my rental house until I can buy my own home and put as many nails in the wall I desire...The tent is tall as hell and I did have to temporarily take down a section of furnace ducting (which happens to heat the bathroom and kitchen of the house, starting to get chilly). It is for this reason I wanted to exhaust the lights into the house. Point taken on the carbon scrubbed air, hadn't considered that-would an alternative to venting the hoods outside be to vent them to the first floor, and then exhaust the carbon scrubber outside? Or do I need to be venting at least 1500CFM outside from hoods only?


As far as layout and geographic location, our climates are probably pretty similar (MI and CO), probably a bit warmer here... night time temps (when I will have the lights going) are around 30 and continue to drop here. I am not set on intake/exhaust , I am considering placing a portable A/C outside of the tent, in the basement, and using ducting and a fan to pump cool air in from the air-conditioner (via a small lung box if I use window unit, or via ducting/dryer venting if I use portable). I have looked at window units and roll around units, unfortunately a split would be too pricey at this current moment but would consider it after harvest. Thanks for your help , I am underestimating the scope of things right now, it is a big jump for me from 1K to 4K. I learn something everyday and it is nice to have some people to ask questions of-may be asking dumb or repeat questions but sifting through ridiculous incoherent posts on this forum for hours is a head ache at times.

I wouldn't recommend bringing outside air in to cool your hoods for lots of reasons, some big ones being temperature instability, overchilling the bulbs so they don't run in their design temp. range, and condensation issues. Why not just bring it in from the unfinished basement next to the tent, down near the floor? Pull the air through your hoods and by all means, exhaust it into your house! If the hoods and ductwork are reasonably well sealed, it won't pick up much if any smell on its way through, and if it does, use the scrubber downstream of the fan and then blow it into your living space. Heat is heat, and you're paying dearly for it, so why not? Just leave someplace for air to return to the basement, preferably the coldest spot near the floor in your living space. Think of it as a cold air return.

Also, you didn't mention if you're running hydro or soil. If you're planning to do a DWC setup, you'll likely need a chiller. Built much like an AC unit, these are designed to move heat from where you want it to remain cool, to somewhere you don't mind it being warmer, using water instead of air as the working fluid. You pay for the equipment, electricity and a little extra because nothing is 100% efficient. It makes perfect sense to put this chiller unit in your living space as well, for all the same reasons it makes sense to exhaust warmed hood air into your living space. You can even use this same chiller to cool your grow space, I explain this below.

If you're drawing the air to cool your hoods from outside the tent, pulling it through the tent and then out to your living area- or for that matter anywhere else- it will not affect the pressure in the tent unless your hoods or ducting leaks pretty badly. I run 2 rows of 4 hoods all with 8" ducting, and all with just one 8" maxfan downstream of the hoods, and it's usually not even running at full speed. I see no reason why you can't cool all 4 hoods with just one fan. Run two intakes, run each one through two hoods in line with one another and connect them through a Y fitting to the fan, then out to your living space. To maximize airflow, try to keep turns and bends to a minimum.

Since what you're designing amounts to a sealed room- err, tent- you'll need CO2 augmentation of some sort. I'd strongly recommend going with tanks instead of burners in a tent.

I would recommend using a chiller system over an AC because of better efficiency (most reputable techs say about double the efficiency of AC) and the ability to better control where and how your heating and cooling activities happen. Additionally, you can cool both a hydro system and use Ice Boxes to cool your tent without trying to blow air into or out of it. If you go this route, I'd recommend a 1 ton chiller from a reputable company to cool the 4k setup you envision. I use a Chillking and I couldn't be happier with it. If you run the chiller water cold enough, the Ice Boxes will help remove water by condensation (don't try to reuse this water, just dump it) but they're no substitute for a real dehuey unit. A 70 pint Frigidaire unit runs around $200 or a little less online. CO is different from MI, but not in ways you might imagine. Both places get plenty cold in the winter, but it's almost always dry here, and almost always damp there. Therefore, you'll need dehumidification in the tent.
 
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mountaindank

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I wouldn't recommend bringing outside air in to cool your hoods for lots of reasons, some big ones being temperature instability, overchilling the bulbs so they don't run in their design temp. range, and condensation issues. Why not just bring it in from the unfinished basement next to the tent, down near the floor? Pull the air through your hoods and by all means, exhaust it into your house! If the hoods and ductwork are reasonably well sealed, it won't pick up much if any smell on its way through, and if it does, use the scrubber downstream of the fan and then blow it into your living space. Heat is heat, and you're paying dearly for it, so why not? Just leave someplace for air to return to the basement, preferably the coldest spot near the floor in your living space. Think of it as a cold air return.

...

CO is different from MI, but not in ways you might imagine. Both places get plenty cold in the winter, but it's almost always dry here, and almost always damp there. Therefore, you'll need dehumidification in the tent.

Good call, I forgot to mention scrapping the outside air intake. The basement air is what I use too. I don't know what -20F air would do to a bulb but I think it might explode or something.

I think MN and MI winters are pretty similar, so you probably won't need a dehumidifier during the winter. I sure don't, even in the basement. It gets humid and nasty here in the summer but winter is bone dry, my lips and hands are already getting cracked. My grow is between 20% and 40% humidity the last month or two. I actually have a humidifier on in the bedroom.

You will sure need it in the summer though!
 
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m1rage

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Thanks to both of you guys for your in depth answers, appreciate it. +rep. I had thought that bringing cold air over the bulbs would cause crazy condensation issues or mess with the life of the bulb. I am now thinking of doing intake in a fashion similar to what you described-sucking air in from the outside room and then exhausting it. Yesterday I was kinda stoned at Home Depot and grabbed about 10 too many ducting pieces, but among them I do have a 8" Y-connect and a 8"to6" piece to connect into the houses heat. I already purchased a frigidaire 70pint, it has been sucking a decent amount of humidity out of the air, vegging under 2 T5s and a 1000watt (need to flip the switch like a week ago, oh well). Doing the plants in 10 gal smart pots. Not sure if I will CO2 supplement this round, starting to have to watch the spending,.. a meter and tank would run, what, 5-700$? It is hard to know what I'm talking about without knowing what it looks like-I'll try to post pics of the setup's electrical and ducting in the coming week after the hoods arrive, shoulda just bought the damn things at the store...

EDIT anyone in michigan want to chime in on flowering humidity in december, january, february? wondering if I'm gonna have to be sitting the dehuey in the tent at night or at all. the air is damp in comparison to CO air, maybe even MN air. The MI cold just cuts to your bones...
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Good call, I forgot to mention scrapping the outside air intake. The basement air is what I use too. I don't know what -20F air would do to a bulb but I think it might explode or something.

I think MN and MI winters are pretty similar, so you probably won't need a dehumidifier during the winter. I sure don't, even in the basement. It gets humid and nasty here in the summer but winter is bone dry, my lips and hands are already getting cracked. My grow is between 20% and 40% humidity the last month or two. I actually have a humidifier on in the bedroom.

You will sure need it in the summer though!

What happens when you pass very cold air over an HID bulb and overcool it is that you cause the bulb to run below its design temperature range. These bulbs are made to run in specific temperature ranges- if they're too cold they will not run the spectrum or the lumen output you want.

Very good point here about humidity; no matter where you are, if the outside temps are cold, warming that air up will make it VERY dry. Veg. or flower, you want to have good humidity in the room, meaning 60-70% if your temps are around 80 F. Only drop the humidity in the last week or so of flower, if at all.
 
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dfa

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You're in a cold area and in a basement. One inline fan will work great.

Use a Y split at the carbon filter, run through the two rows of lights, back to a Y split outside of the tent to your Inline fan.

Add some ducting to the bottom hole on your tent and connect it to your window, which is blacked out and Slightly Cracked.
 
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m1rage

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You're in a cold area and in a basement. One inline fan will work great.

Use a Y split at the carbon filter, run through the two rows of lights, back to a Y split outside of the tent to your Inline fan.

Add some ducting to the bottom hole on your tent and connect it to your window, which is blacked out and Slightly Cracked.
Thanks. Been working on it today and will take some pictures. I connected into furnace ducting and am working on completely sealing ducting system. Lights will be in tomorrow. Threw out my back carrying some water downstairs. Gotta move my RO filter before I hurt myself again...:bong-hits:
 
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mountaindank

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Not trying to thread-jack here but I think the answer will probably be of interest to the thread starter too. What are the consequences of running too dry? It's been getting colder and colder here and yesterday I noticed my humidity down around 15% in the grow room. As it gets colder it's only going to get worse. The only thing I've noticed is that I have to water them more often, but otherwise the plants don't seem to mind.

Edit: By the way, thanks for the info on cold lights, I always wondered and now I don't have to experiment!
 

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