O2 or CO2 Extraction?

[potentinfinite]

Just wondering how much more expensive it would be to run an oxygen or co2 setup and how much more potent/clean the oil would be from these means than the butane method....and if it is reasonably inexpensive how to do it?

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

ya me too, as a glass blower i have a large liquid tank of oxy at all times.

 

[squiggly]

Some answers

As for price I cannot comment.

Oxygen will most likely not work well as a solvent as it is really great at oxidizing stuff. Because THC is susceptible to oxidation (into cannabinol/cannabidol) I can only imagine this would wreak some havoc.

CO2 is capable of oxidzing as well, but breaking that CO bond is about twice as hard (O-O = 146 kJ/mol C-O = 336kJ/mol). Carbon is a weird element and it does some cool stuff as well to stabilize it, there is also resonance stabilization in CO2.

CO2 is currently widely used as an industrial extraction solvent and so a system using it would likely be very effective. Many compounds can be selectively dissolved into CO2 by varying pressure (that is to say solubility in CO2 varies with pressure).

With some testing and proper equipment I'm sure this property could be used to great effect in extraction of THC.

One issue I do see is that "decarboxylation" which many of you reference involves the loss of a CO2 from THCa to give THC. This is a reversible process. Chemical processes, for the most part, follow an equilibrium which is effected by the proportion of products to reactants of a particular reaction.

Generally speaking, adding a large excess of CO2 (much less fully dissolving THC in CO2)--would be expected to careboxylize nearly all of the THC. If you're interested to know more about this concept of equilibrium, look up Le Chatlier's Principle as a good starting point. There are more things to consider such as rate constants, enthalpy, gibbs free energy, and entropy--for those who find themselves more interested in the goings on of chemistry.

This is easily remedied, though, with careful heating. My one concern with selectively dissolving THC/terpines would be that the closer you get them to pure the more susceptible they will be to degradation by heat and oxidation from air. More stringent lab protocols and more precise heating instrumentation (as well as careful testing) may be necessary to keep from destroying most of what you're after using this process.

 

[squiggly]

Just did some looking at the actual structure of THC-a and I must correct something I said. I'm actually unsure as to whether or not the process of decarboxylation will be reversible. This type of reaction often is, but the fact that the carboxylate group is being lost from a benzene ring brings up all kinds of questions to which I don't yet know the answers.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions :)

 

[potentinfinite]

thanks.... that was quite an in depth answer

 

[einstoned]

re co2 extraction vs butane

What Squiggly says is true from the research I have done. CO2 extraction is quite complicated, not to mention very expensive. You can easily lipidfy the fats and break the THC ring. So an exacting bit of science to say the least. Butane is very close to the THC in molecular solubility making it basically the holy grail in a one step process. KISS and party on dudes. Einstoned

 

[EuDiesel]

Who keeps spreading this Oxygen myth around? It would be a horrible solvent, not to mention more hazardous than butane.

CO2 can, and is, being used to extract cannabis. For supercritical CO2 (sc-CO2), the equipment is costly but the ability to sequester and re-use CO2 many times is an advantage, as well as not being toxic. It's used to make many of the essential oils you see at the stores.

Without special equipment, you can use subcritical CO2 for the extraction. The solubility is harder to tune with this a subcritical rather than a sc-CO2 system since a typical sc-CO2 system allows tweaking of temperature / pressures / co-solvents to selectively extract what is desired.

 

[potentinfinite]

wow...... the learning never stops...thanks EuDiesel

 

[Graywolf]

butane is a smaller yielder than co2. I recieved 10lbs from a pre rinsed bho batch. It was claimed 10% had been removed prior w butane. So IU loaded up my vessel w a qp and proceeded to go w a co2 extraction where I was able to recover 6 grams from that. that avereges out to about 1.25 grams per ounce. So if there estimate was right, they had obtained 2.8 grams per oz, and thats where I stepped in and added to that yield which made it 4.05 grams recovered from one oz. wow thats amazing.

After all your statistical manipulation of the numbers, you still only end up with a 14.3% return by weight, which is about 38% lower than our average BHO Absolute Amber yield.

It would appear that you are not comparing your process to what BHO is capable of, but to the best technology you are aware of yourself. You need to get around more bro.............

 

[Graywolf]

you can manipulate the pressure temp variance w subcritical as well as supercritiucal, its the same beast we are playing w that has this low critical temperature of 88F. so keep it below that and you have a subcritical extraction, right? wrong. once the valve is cracked, the temperature drops as the pressure is lost. any liquid or scf at the point of releasing pressure will revert back into dry ice inside the vessel. now w the valve cracked as your extracting, now is the time to check your temperature. thats why most extractions are sub rather than super. bringing it up to pressure then bleeding off isnt a scf extraction. it must extract @ the targeted area to qualify as such. But once people start getting their hands dirty and start putting in work, will all these opinions be determined fact or fiction. I already know, you guys are the ones left guessing. who the hell keeps spreading ill advised whipping techniques that at best may add the additional weight of air in the extracts?

Why wouldn't you simply prepressurize the vessel with a hundred pounds or so, to keep the CO2 liquid when transfered?

 

[Blaze]

That's because you have no fucking clue what you are doing or what you are talking about. I usually get a quarter oz or more off 2-3 cans of butane, as do most people. The more you ramble the more clear it becomes how ignorant you are too ALL forms of extracts, even your precious CO2 methods.

Anyway, ave fun trolling threads and putting out bad info, that seems to be what you love to do with your time....

 

[Graywolf]

trash in the yields or ballast isnt something I account for yield. There's only a couple areas of interest to me, the cannabinoid fraction and complete removal of delta 9 as the main desired compound of interest. So in actuality the theoretical yield isnt this great big yielding number of 30-40% . When the only thing considered is how much active ingredient was recovered, is where co2 comes through. Can turn a matrix into placebo. I have confidence that Graywolf is supercompitant in his ability to purge out the last bit of tane in their, but I dont have that same opinion about everybodies bho. Ive seen some of these proceedures and there far from acceptable. So dont worry about your abilities, worry about whomever is putting stuff out there thats heavily residued, under purged, and unfit to be in my body.

Ummm, did you just say that anything in our Absolute Amber greater than your yield is trash or ballast?

Teaching others to extract quality oil is a different subject, than the quality of yours or my extracts.

I am using this forum to teach others how to extract quality meds safely, by showing them details.

You are using this forum to run down the other extraction methods, so as to promote your own product, which you aren't sharing the extraction details on. That and the multiple IP's is mostly why you were banned at GP.

There is nothing I do, that others can't easily do as well, and unlike you, I have tasted any number of good oils by others, using a variety of processes.

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that your oil is tasty and efficacious, and most certainly your right to not put things you deem unfit in your own body.

What we continue to dance around is that you spread myths about other processes and aren't sharing details of yours. If you aren't here to spam your product, could you share an alternate explanation motive that accounts for your actions?

 

[Graywolf]

gray, let me explain my simple scfe schematic. see the picture to the left in my avatar. one large 6k psi vessel will be brought up to temp and pressure, and when 6k is reached, a lever valve surges into an awaiting 10k vessel. once the two reach an equalibrium, which is very quick, i lock the vessels back up and focus on heating the vessel @ 10k, only limiting it to 65C. thats how i can get away w out the use of pumps saving a ton in liquid co2 costs. My batches are relatively small, about 1/4lbs weed, 10lbs co2 costing about $15 to yield anywhere from 6-12 grams. those arent the most impressive numbers, but they real.

Thanks for sharing your use of an accumulator to minimize time coming up to pressure.

$1.25 a gram ($15/12gm) is cheaper than venting butane to atmosphere, but not cheaper than a butane reclaim system.

To put that in perspective:

Extraction costs:

Electrical:

1 Operate 1/2 hp Vacuum pump 15 minutes each hour = 375 watt/4= 94W

2 Operate 600Watt cable wrap 15 minutes each hour= 150W

3 Operate 1200W recovery pump 45 minutes each hour = 900W

4 Operate 1200W water bath heater 50% of each hour = 600W

5 Sub total 1744W

1744W X $0.09/Kw/hr = per hour electrical costs of: $0.157

Ice costs per hour: $4.00

Butane cost per hour = 804 ml gas last cycle, or 3.45 ml liquid

at $150/21600ml=$0.0069 $0.01

Grand total per hour/less labor: $4.17

Yield per hour at 23% of 480 grams processed= 110gm
Cost per gram, less labor= 4.17/110gm= $0.038 per gram