Odd rusty mottling - help sedate identify this!

[sedate]

I have seven Hash Plants under a 600w HPS some 4 weeks into flower. Fairly small plants, 18 - 24" in 3 gallon pots. 50/50 perlite/coco getting 700ish PPM's @ ~5.9ish, Botanicare nutes.

Some 200ish Cal-Mag+ and the rest ProBloom.

Plants look healthy overall - nicely erect leaves and all that - but this rusty mottling is driving me nuts. Plants are probably a week or so behind on bud formation by my estimation, but I haven't run this strain before.

So what is the def? I don't get this one . . . the mottling isn't something I've seen before and it is definitely getting worse.

What gives - notice the progression from a light speckling to a leaf that is almost burned . . . ?

 

[cymbaline]

calcium issue it appears to me. Either too much or a ph lockout.
Are you using RO water/tap or well? With only 200~ cal/mag I wouldn't think it's too much. But it could be something completely different.

 

[sedate]

Are you using RO water

Right. RO water. Yea I'm kinda scratching my head.

Lean nutes b/c these plants really are pretty small and somewhat underpowered - a single 600w HPS pushing like 10 sq/ft of canopy space.

 

[Seamaiden]

I think there's a combination of problems because I also see the reddened petioles which always read as a P issue to me. The necrosis on leaf veins and margins is typically a Ca deficiency, but you know how toxicities can mimic deficiencies. If it were me in that situation I would begin the process of elimination. First, make sure that all meters are calibrated and measuring properly.

Assuming they're in good working order, then I would try a foliar application of Ca only if possible, otherwise a foliar of Ca-Mg. If it gets better (doesn't progress) then I would need to tease apart what the real problem with the Ca might be. If that doesn't help alleviate, then I would try a foliar of MgSO4 (Epsom salt) at a rate of 1/4tsp/gal water, specifically because I see that mottling/yellowing.

I might also incorporate a few seaweed/kelp foliar feeds, just to see how they respond. There are so many micros in the seaweed that it can make it difficult to determine what, exactly, the problem is, but if it helps that's what we're really after, right?

HTH!

 

[sedate]

Thanks for the post Seamaiden.

Assuming they're in good working order, then I would try a foliar application of Ca only if possible, otherwise a foliar of Ca-Mg. If it gets better (doesn't progress) then I would need to tease apart what the real problem with the Ca might be. If that doesn't help alleviate, then I would try a foliar of MgSO4 (Epsom salt) at a rate of 1/4tsp/gal water, specifically because I see that mottling/yellowing.

At 200ppm's of cal-mag+ ya think I'd have problems like talking about?

Where can I get epsom salts for horticultural use? Like a CVS or Walgreens?

I've actually never grown in coco/perlite before is there something else I'm missing?

I might also incorporate a few seaweed/kelp foliar feeds, just to see how they respond. There are so many micros in the seaweed that it can make it difficult to determine what, exactly, the problem is, but if it helps that's what we're really after, right?

Jeeze I'm really not up on foliars - what would you recommend seamaiden?

HTH

HTH?

 

[motherlode]

last time I bought some epsom salts at rite aid and it had plant dosage on the package

any pharmacy or grocer should have it

 

[Seamaiden]

Yes, they do, but their dosing rates are outrageous, IMO. I usually begin, for both root feeding and foliar applications, 1/4tsp per gallon.

Thanks for the post Seamaiden.
At 200ppm's of cal-mag+ ya think I'd have problems like talking about?

My pleasure. Remember that Ca isn't the only mineral that's playing in this sandbox, so we're not concerned only with how much Ca you're feeding, but how much is actually available and whether or not anything is acting as an antagonist (that damned mineral interaction chart again!). And then, you have the added issue of coco, which locks onto Ca & Mg like a mofo and has K up the wazoo.

Where can I get epsom salts for horticultural use? Like a CVS or Walgreens?

Or Walmart or the market. In the pharmaceutical section.

I've actually never grown in coco/perlite before is there something else I'm missing?

See above mentions regarding coco. I don't remember if you mentioned what brand, but the brand that I use, Botanicare, in the 5kg compressed bales, needs to be pre-charged with Ca/Mg + NPK (mild/low numbers of the NPK, should probably only be an NP formula, like that stinky guano I have... no, I can't face pre-charging coco with that stinky liquid guano then putting my hands into it).

I have also moved away from perlite in favor of rice hulls, but that's another issue entirely.

Jeeze I'm really not up on foliars - what would you recommend seamaiden?

Foliar the Cal-Mag. Use it at a rate that's approximately 1/4 of the root-feeding rate, i.e. if as a root feed it's used @1tsp/gal, then for foliar use it @1/4tsp/gal.

HTH?

Hope This Helps.

You've probably seen this chart before, but I post it up whenever I think it may be helpful to anyone, myself included.

 

[sedate]

My pleasure. Remember that Ca isn't the only mineral that's playing in this sandbox, so we're not concerned only with how much Ca you're feeding, but how much is actually available and whether or not anything is acting as an antagonist (that damned mineral interaction chart again!). And then, you have the added issue of coco, which locks onto Ca & Mg like a mofo and has K up the wazoo.

Huh. The coco is some brand called "CocoGold" and according to the package at least comes with a fairly nominal amount of onboard ferts. Good for a few days or so, IRRC.

Anyway, the plants hummed along nicely - no def's or problems at all - if a bit slowly - in veg until I dropped them under a 600 to flower - this motteling has gotten bad over the last week but has been kinda been progressing through flower.

I decided to try plain water - I really haven't flushed much at all since I've been nuting so light - but when I came back today and the whole freakin canopy was worse. I ended up taking a good three dozen fans the damage was so bad.

I'll take a pic or two tommorow.

Seamaiden - ya still think I should try a nuted foliar or try plain/ph'd h20 for a few days?

How about this stuff:

SuperNatural's GreenStay? 1/0/0 with Fe, Ca, and Mg . . .



What do you ph a folair to anyway?

I feel like flushing is the right idea but I've been nuting so light for awhile I'm kinda like 'meh'

. . . Anyway I need these plants to go off right they've really been a pain . . .

You've probably seen this chart before, but I post it up whenever I think it may be helpful to anyone, myself included.

Um. I mean that looks very informative but I don't really get that what does that mean? Is there like a legend or something?

 

[Seamaiden]

Ahh... crap, sorry about that. This will explain it better than I can:
One basic way to interpret the arrows is, when noting direction, to remember that if, for instance, Ca is in excess, it can depress the following minerals (this is where direction of the arrow means something).

The Greenstay looks alright, I'd love to see the label though. I'm more a fan of seaweed/kelp for a few reasons, but mostly because it can easily provide low doses of important micronutrients. I don't usually foliar with water unless I think the VPD is too far off, they look like they'd like it or I've caught bananas. I never pay much attention to pH of the foliar itself, just make sure that it's been mixed well, anything used is around 1/4 strength of root application (if applicable), and use either a horticultural oil or a few drops of liquid dish soap to act as a spreader/sticker. I think you should try giving a foliar of the Ca/Mg product you're using, see if that stops progression of the spotting.

It just occurred to me also that if you have a humic/fulvic acid product on hand, you might want to try giving a feed or two with that, see if it helps uptake at all.

So, since you tried a plain watering and the condition worsened, that would suggest that it's a true deficiency and you might be able to correct that much more quickly.

 

[TrichromeFan]

Sedate,

Just my quick 2 cents. I think that you are under feeding.

On my coco/perlite I feed at 1000-1100 ppm around week 4 of flowering. 700 sounds low for that stage of growth.

-TF

 

[sedate]

Ugh this is a mess . . .

So, since you tried a plain watering and the condition worsened, that would suggest that it's a true deficiency and you might be able to correct that much more quickly.

Just my quick 2 cents. I think that you are under feeding.

On my coco/perlite I feed at 1000-1100 ppm around week 4 of flowering. 700 sounds low for that stage of growth.

Heh thanks guys.

I mean - I guess I don't really have another explanation - but like I said, this is a pretty underpowered grow with pretty small plants - and this shit looks so much like burn to me . . .

And the plants are really up-taking water SLOWLY - like maybe ~1ish pint/per day/per plant . . . usually the barometer I use for guesstimating plant metabolism.

1100ish PPM's seems aggressive at that rate.

So yesterday and today I foliar fed @ 450ppms with GH's Kool Bloom and that Supernatural GreenStay stuff.

Watered @ 6.0 ~950 ppms, 2 pints/per plant.

Here some pics as of today - definitely gotten worse since I originally posted.

Fucking ick.

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh.... fuck. FUCK! Sedate, I don't even want to say it, but the progression is classic.

Root aphids is where I'm headed with this. FUCK!

If you run a reservoir then you might want to look into Evergreen or similar pyrethrin product. I can't remember if you mentioned ever seeing any bugs flying around, but now's the time to tear apart one of those ladies, I'd choose the worst one, and scope out the roots.

At this point you cannot use Merit75, and I would stay away from the lower % imidacloprid products as well because of tenacity in plant tissues. Triazicide would be the next option, you should allow a 21 day PHI (pre-harvest interval) between flooding and harvest. This is based on my own experience, but others have been having great results with the pyrethrin products, as I mention above.

 

[sedate]

Oh.... fuck. FUCK! Sedate, I don't even want to say it, but the progression is classic.

Root aphids is where I'm headed with this. FUCK!

Well shit.

At least it certainly fits the disease profile.

I like the title of this other thread here:

"Phantom Deficiencies, Rapidly Yellowing leaves, rust spots, necrosis>> Root Aphids!!"

That would sort of cover it.

The planters are going to be soaked for another day or two but I'll pull up the root balls and take a gander then. Guess I'll just have to wait and see on these.

But um - no bugs flying around what-so-ever. I did find some mites starting to make progress on one of the plants, but those were easy to get rid of and I treated everything at the time with Safer's End All - of course as a surface foliar that isn't going to help aphids . .

I'll post back with more info. Thanks seamaiden.

Obviously I'd kick you more rep but I can't. So thanks.

 

[Elite Nugs]

You either have Rust Mites or Rust Fungus my friend. Grab yourself a sulfur burner and light that puppy up. If that doesnt work, try to get your hands on a product called Judo. Its commercial, so its a little hard to come by, but it will work if you have rust mites.

I had this same problem before. I thought for sure it was a nutrient deficiency. Even though I was running the same exact nutes that I always have, with no issues. Then I entered in some fresh healthy plants into the same room as the infected plants, on a completely different system, and those healthy plants started to get it too. They looked exactly like your pics.

So get yourself some sulfur and a burner. They stink like hell, but it'll fix your problem for sure. Id even put money on it. Good luck!!

 

[Elite Nugs]

I didnt think about root aphids.

Enter in a healthy plant of the same strain and see what happens. If its rust mites, or rust fungus, then that plant should catch it and show signs within a few days. If not, then you probably got the root aphids.

Im still thinking its the rust fungus or mites though. My plants looked identical.

 

[Seamaiden]

Elite, at this point if you think it's something else, if I were in sedate's place, I would also investigate those possibilities. It doesn't matter whether it's this or it's that, there's a problem and it's burgeoning and he's got to get a handle on it with a quickness. How did you treat your plants? Have you eradicated the problem, whatever it was?

 

[sedate]

You either have Rust Mites or Rust Fungus my friend. Grab yourself a sulfur burner and light that puppy up.

Heh thanks for posting Elite - but seamaiden got this one right off -

Root aphids is where I'm headed with this. FUCK!

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

Yup. All the fuck over the place in that 'effin closet.

I didn't even have to pull the plant up - the first instant I peeped out the drain holes I could see the little fuckers bobbing around. Little white pustule looking mite looking things.

In and out the rockwool blocks - around the edges of the planter.

Like it's motherfucking cinco-de-mayo.

Root Aphids. Learn something everyday. Thanks for the help seamaiden.

Never woulda' seen 'em.

Well - I can

1) Run 'em with plain water for a week or two and harvest whatever for the hash pile
2) Treat and give 'em 3 or 4 more to recover and yield
3) Cull the tops now and dump what's left - in the name of sanitation and what-not.

Hmm. These aren't that important.

An infestation in the main room would be a disaster.

Opinions?

 

[motherlode]

I wouldnt risk spreading them to moms and or main flower area another minute if I were you

clear cut that closet - bag and tag em and nuke the shit out of the area

 

[Seamaiden]

I absolutely would not not treat unless I were going to pull right away. And while I detest saying it, I would treat the entire room, surfaces, hidey-holes, equipment, etcetera (any place the fliers can hide) with Triazicide *and* Bayer T&S for good measure. I might close the room up with a case of NPS. I might get spent nuclear rods from Diablo Canyon and throw them in there.

WATCH OUT for secondary infections, as these bugs are serious Vector Bitches.

 

[Elite Nugs]

Well its a good thing I didnt put any money on it. Haha... My plants looked the same exact way about 6 months ago. Burned some sulfur 3 times, and the problem was fixed.

I have 2 plants outside that look like this. Im gonna check for aphids before I bring them in and bomb them with sulfur, like I was planning on doing.

Good luck to you Sedate!!