Official coco flush thread..

[crom]

Don't you have to keep your H2O/RO Phed so that your plants don't lock up?

Cheers,
Crom

 

[true grit]

Not much of either of those because I properly flush my plants and follow regimens that allow the plants to process fully. At most- I overflush. Only awful smoke i've come across so far were from phenos i just was not satified with.

To each their own I suppose, but most yellowing at the end of flower is lockout. Alot of things add up to a good uptake at the end. Fade is different than yellowing lockout- period. Dying shriveling leaves doesnt necessarily mean they are out of reserves- its means they are dying. I get fade, but all my leaves are alive when i chop- unless i over flush which isn't necessary or im not around to chop when i need to.

Flavor and potency come through via pheno, but if you don't overfertilize and flush well- which is simple- then they should come through easily. Don't overcomplicate a regimen. the KISS method is there for a reason.

And why wouldn't you pH your RO water during flush? Its essentially hydro, you need the plants uptake to be in range to process properly, why would let the plant uptake in the wrong range and lockout (also causing yellowing dying leaves) at the end and most crucial part?

 

[budboy299]

there seems to be 3 or more lines of thought on the final flushing that I have seen.

Some will ph their water at the end with the argument that it has less shock to the plant and allows all the nutes to be utilized within the plant.

Some will disregard the ph at the end as it may not matter

Some even deliberately adjust ph to outside the usable range with the arguement that water is still taken in but any residual nutes will be locked out and unavailable to the plant. Also the argument too is that you are either adding nitogen (in nitric acid) or phosphorus (in phosphoric acid) and thus are still feeding somewhat.

I think it all comes down to whether (within the plant) nutrients can be mobilized with ph locked out or not.

Plants do definitely take up water whether locked out or not, but I have no idea further than this to lean me towards either opinion. One or the other may be right or even both may be totally right and it may not even matter.

To be honest I have never really seen any definitive data on which case it is.
I have always gone with just adding RO tap water with no ph balancing but for me it is always been that way, and my water is reasonably close to acceptable ph levels anyhow.

 

[Seamaiden]

Don't you have to keep your H2O/RO Phed so that your plants don't lock up?

Cheers,
Crom

If you're flushing, what are you preventing from being locked up, though? That's making no sense to me and I haven't farted around with pHing RO/DI when I'm doing that flush.

Not much of either of those because I properly flush my plants and follow regimens that allow the plants to process fully. At most- I overflush. Only awful smoke i've come across so far were from phenos i just was not satified with.

Heh, well, I have been working on keeping my learning curve steep and, to that end, I have achieved success. Inasmuch as being able to say what not to do, if nothing else.

To each their own I suppose, but most yellowing at the end of flower is lockout.

I'd like to learn more about that statement, how it's qualified and how that conclusion is made when we're talking about what is normally an annual plant anyway.

Alot of things add up to a good uptake at the end. Fade is different than yellowing lockout- period. Dying shriveling leaves doesnt necessarily mean they are out of reserves- its means they are dying. I get fade, but all my leaves are alive when i chop- unless i over flush which isn't necessary or im not around to chop when i need to.

That clarification was needed, thank you. I agree, to each their own, I love the blond color and flavor of the buds best when I have achieved a high degree of fade.

Flavor and potency come through via pheno, but if you don't overfertilize and flush well- which is simple- then they should come through easily. Don't overcomplicate a regimen. the KISS method is there for a reason.

Don't disagree on that.

And why wouldn't you pH your RO water during flush? Its essentially hydro, you need the plants uptake to be in range to process properly, why would let the plant uptake in the wrong range and lockout (also causing yellowing dying leaves) at the end and most crucial part?

I wouldn't, and don't, because I don't see the point of it. What am I trying to achieve with a flush? It certainly isn't more uptake of nutrients, just the opposite in fact, I want them to use up every molecule of available reserves while also ensuring there is little left in the medium (coco).

 

[true grit]

If you're flushing, what are you preventing from being locked up, though? That's making no sense to me and I haven't farted around with pHing RO/DI when I'm doing that flush.

I'd like to learn more about that statement, how it's qualified and how that conclusion is made when we're talking about what is normally an annual plant anyway.


I wouldn't, and don't, because I don't see the point of it. What am I trying to achieve with a flush? It certainly isn't more uptake of nutrients, just the opposite in fact, I want them to use up every molecule of available reserves while also ensuring there is little left in the medium (coco).

First of all explain to me what the difference between- Uptake and "using up whats left"? They are one and the same, your uptake means useing what is left. Thats what a flush is. If you limit things that enable uptake at the end then you are not "using up" whats left. You are processing some of it and locking some out. Uptake just simply means the plants availability to eat. If you keep things in the proper pH range for availability- the plant uptakes it more readily. There is a pH range of availability for all macro and micros. This means for your plant- not just your water, not just for your root zone.

Sorry but not ph'ing during flush makes NO sense. Why spend your whole grow keeping things in a range for uptake then say fuck it in the end, where you actually need the plants to process what is left. Its not all in the rootzone/medium. What do you think is being worked out/cause lockout during flush? Its that shit still processing in the plants, which is why feed usually drops towards the end (at least my ppm does with regimen), which is why you use a flush agent (heavy chelating agent), and why you don't feed for 7-10 days...to process whats left- keep it in range and get it all out.

Chelation to me is very important to help with fuck ups. It widely opens that range of availability to the plants by changing ionic bonds. Do research on it and you'll see what im talking about. And i believe its a zinc lockout that causes the yellowing at the end- not a nitrogen fade like people think they are getting.

 

[evlme2]

If I may, it seems to me that ph'ing during flush makes no sense.
The object here being for the plant to use up what it has stored, not use up what is in the medium, no? You flush away what is in the medium so that the plant is forced to use what it has stored in its leaves.
So, how is ph'ing the water during flush going to help keep things in range? The plant has everything it needs already stored and will slowly use it since there is nothing available at the root zone, because you flushed it all away.
Am I missing something?
(For the record, I flush with plain un-ph'd tap for 14 days before harvest)

 

[sfzoo]

i think this needs clarification, the reason for pH'ing in the first place.

Is it for uptake of nutrients, correct?

if the media is flushed of nutrients, the range in which nutrients become available is now irrelevant.

TrueGrit, seems like your argument rests on the assertion that pH'ing the water is to keep the nutrients that are already in the plant available to itself. This seems counter intuitive. In nature the pH of water, from whatever source, will never be the same nor consistent. Therefore, a plant who's survival rests on an exact pH range internally will not thrive in natural conditions.



..just tryin to make sense of all this.

 

[budboy299]

The way I look at it is....

Lots of beginners ignore PH when they first start growing. This eventually leads to lockout. How many times do we read about Cal and Magnesium being locked out, especially on this forum?
When the plant is locked out....the leaves yellow and do all kinds of funky things. This means that although no new nutrients are being drawn into the plant....the plant is still depleting itself of its stored reserves.

The plant can and will still use up its stored reserves while it is locked out. That is why I never sweat the ph on doing my final flush with plain water.

 

[Seamaiden]

First of all explain to me what the difference between- Uptake and "using up whats left"? They are one and the same, your uptake means useing what is left.

When I talk about "uptake", I'm talking about what the plants will take in, whether via rootzone or foliar applications of feeds.

But when I talk about having a plant 'use up what's left', I'm talking about forcing the plant to use up what's left within its own tissues, not whatever's left in the medium. Just like burning the fat that's held within our own bodies versus eating fat to burn.

I never meant to foment confusion by using these two terms. I hope my explanation of the semantic differences between them helps.

Thats what a flush is. If you limit things that enable uptake at the end then you are not "using up" whats left. You are processing some of it and locking some out. Uptake just simply means the plants availability to eat. If you keep things in the proper pH range for availability- the plant uptakes it more readily. There is a pH range of availability for all macro and micros. This means for your plant- not just your water, not just for your root zone.

Sorry but not ph'ing during flush makes NO sense. Why spend your whole grow keeping things in a range for uptake then say fuck it in the end, where you actually need the plants to process what is left. Its not all in the rootzone/medium. What do you think is being worked out/cause lockout during flush? Its that shit still processing in the plants, which is why feed usually drops towards the end (at least my ppm does with regimen), which is why you use a flush agent (heavy chelating agent), and why you don't feed for 7-10 days...to process whats left- keep it in range and get it all out.

Chelation to me is very important to help with fuck ups. It widely opens that range of availability to the plants by changing ionic bonds. Do research on it and you'll see what im talking about. And i believe its a zinc lockout that causes the yellowing at the end- not a nitrogen fade like people think they are getting.

I have looked into it, and I believe I have at least a basic understanding of it.

As for the rest of it, see above. Perhaps I'm completely wrong in how I'm doing things, but after doing a few flushes pHing the water I saw zero difference, sat and thought upon it for a while and decided I was wasting time and resources by doing it.

 

[leadsled]

Each grower has specifics that are independent to them. Enviroment, feeding and genetics. (to name a few factors not all)

for example: One grower may have c02 and another may not. Shorter time to depletion for the c02 grower. Same with the guy with 1000 watter vs 600. Shorter plant vs taller overfed vs not.


Why not test it for yourself? Then you will know what works and have proof to back it up.
If you got the means or the $$, go the scientific route and before reducing nutes previous to harvest (or flushing if you go that route)

take a sample and do a tissue test. That will show you the levels of nutes

Then after 1 take another test, week 2 etc.

Optionally combine that with cbd, cbn thc testing and you got some benchmarks to work from. Real facts to then make educated decision on what produces the best meds. Combined with run after run of the same genetics then can get things really dialed.

Testing can verify the nute levels and the fade.

Then go off patient feedback, smoke reports and thc/cbd.cbn testing to try and gather as much information as possible. Can potentially be part of the process to try to produce the best medication. That is, if those small details matter to you.

In saying that, anyone done a tissue test or even thought about using one to see what is up at a celluar level?

Hope that helps.

 

[evlme2]

Not to imply that ph'ing the flush would do any harm, just that it's not necessary. Imo...

 

[true grit]

If I may, it seems to me that ph'ing during flush makes no sense.
The object here being for the plant to use up what it has stored, not use up what is in the medium, no? You flush away what is in the medium so that the plant is forced to use what it has stored in its leaves.
So, how is ph'ing the water during flush going to help keep things in range? The plant has everything it needs already stored and will slowly use it since there is nothing available at the root zone, because you flushed it all away.
Am I missing something?
(For the record, I flush with plain un-ph'd tap for 14 days before harvest)

You are not just 'washing' away what is in the medium during flush. You are stopping the adding of ppm value to the plants so they can uptake what is remaining and process what is already in their system. That is why you don't feed and lower your ppm value as your grow comes to an end. You want the processing of what is built up to already be happening before you begin flushing.

Yes, you are missing something- the root zone is not the only basis of uptake, as evidenced by you saying there are stored reserves. Just washing the root zone, is doing that, washing away some and giving the rest of the plant an incorrect pH.

i think this needs clarification, the reason for pH'ing in the first place.

Is it for uptake of nutrients, correct?

if the media is flushed of nutrients, the range in which nutrients become available is now irrelevant.

TrueGrit, seems like your argument rests on the assertion that pH'ing the water is to keep the nutrients that are already in the plant available to itself. This seems counter intuitive. In nature the pH of water, from whatever source, will never be the same nor consistent. Therefore, a plant who's survival rests on an exact pH range internally will not thrive in natural conditions.

Yes you are correct, the basis for pH'ing is to put all nutrients in a range available for uptake and allow proper ion exchange with in the plant. THe media being flushed of nutrients is a mute point, there are still nutrients being processed with in the plant.

No the point is to keep what is in the plant tissue available to the plant. The plant tissue needs proper ph for uptake and ion exchange as well- the growing of a plant is not based on the proper ph of the rootzone. Why do you think foliars well out of ph range can cause issues. Why do you think certain foliar treatments REQUIRE a ph range? Plant tissue responds and is directly correllated to ph.

And you proved the point yourself. Go smoke some weed grown out in the wild at random and tell me how it stacks up to properly done indoor weed. I mean seriously, thats the reason why we grow indoors- to perfect conditions and grow primo.

The way I look at it is....

Lots of beginners ignore PH when they first start growing. This eventually leads to lockout. How many times do we read about Cal and Magnesium being locked out, especially on this forum?
When the plant is locked out....the leaves yellow and do all kinds of funky things. This means that although no new nutrients are being drawn into the plant....the plant is still depleting itself of its stored reserves.

The plant can and will still use up its stored reserves while it is locked out. That is why I never sweat the ph on doing my final flush with plain water.

Well honestly not all of those calmag deficiencies are calmag definiencies to begin with- thats just the trigger response. Many of those calmag deficiencies are really Mg lockouts, or problems from too much mg. Hell i see some that are vpd related, some that are aphid/gnat related....etc....calmag is just the accepted knee jerk response. One day folks will see calmag is not as big as they think it is...once you are dialed.

And no yellowing does not mean its depleting itself of food, it means it can not uptake food and is in turn DYING. It is simply not getting what it needs, locking out uptake of other nutrients and creating a poor end result. Plants done right do NOT have to yellow (lockout) at the end of flower.

When I talk about "uptake", I'm talking about what the plants will take in, whether via rootzone or foliar applications of feeds.

But when I talk about having a plant 'use up what's left', I'm talking about forcing the plant to use up what's left within its own tissues, not whatever's left in the medium. Just like burning the fat that's held within our own bodies versus eating fat to burn.

I never meant to foment confusion by using these two terms. I hope my explanation of the semantic differences between them helps.

I have looked into it, and I believe I have at least a basic understanding of it.

As for the rest of it, see above. Perhaps I'm completely wrong in how I'm doing things, but after doing a few flushes pHing the water I saw zero difference, sat and thought upon it for a while and decided I was wasting time and resources by doing it.

Not to be rude, but no that explained nothing. They are still one and the same. Uptake happens with in the plant tissue and cell culture...and believe it or not, plant tissue does have a direct correlation to pH. lol. In fact, scientists/commercial farmers do plant tissue testing to determine ph levels in relation to medium (which they found is direct), nutrient uptake levels, and ion exchange. Which are all related to pH.

Plain and simple- where do many lockouts start? Often from improper pH. This does not mean the root zone didn't like the pH so the whole plant locks out...it means the nutrients/water (ABSORBED or not) were not used by the plant tissue. That somewhere between absorbtion and processing within the plant itself an incorrect pH value caused a lockout of uptake within the plant or prevented certain ion exchange. Then you see signs.

Plants, like humans are mostly water. So again- Why would you allow the plant tissue to be in range to process all the nutrients you can throw at it, then when it needs to eliminate whats in the plant tissue and fruits (not talking rootzone/media here) would inhibit the uptake by putting those plant tissue cells out of range for uptake? This is why i preach/harp on chelates. They greatly expand the ion compatibility and thus open up the pH range of transfer and uptake. This allows for more swing. Again-why would most flushes be chelated? Not to wash away shit in your coco, so that the chelated minerals are uptaken into the plant- open up and facilitate the uptake of whats left in the tissue...again being facilitated by a pH that the plant tissue uses for uptake.

And cmon Seamaiden- you flushed twice at right ph and saw nothing? Your not gonna be able to see a visual change from your plant tissue actually being able to process what it needs to. If you do it correctly at the beginning of flush til the end you will just have plants that dont yellow, wither, or crumble as come to conclusion. You will get more flavorful, aromatic and clean buds. Thats why folks can't tell the difference between my coco and organic.

So....hopefully folks get it, think i spent enough time typing. If you don't believe me, it won't hurt my feelings, just know myself and those that let the plant finish instead of forcing it to die are getting better results.

 

[evlme2]

"Plain and simple- where do many lockouts start? Often from improper pH. This does not mean the root zone didn't like the pH so the whole plant locks out...it means the nutrients/water (ABSORBED or not) were not used by the plant tissue. That somewhere between absorbtion and processing within the plant itself an incorrect pH value caused a lockout of uptake within the plant or prevented certain ion exchange. Then you see signs."

I beg to differ. The plant will uptake whatever nutrients it needs. Once it's stored it does not need a balanced ph to use it. You need ph "range" so that everything is available to the plant at the root zone. If it is not in range then certain nutrients cannot be uptaken. Once taken, that plant can now use it or store it.
But, to each his own.
Like I said, it won't hurt none to ph the flush.

 

[waywardson]

Nice post true grit.

The one saving grace in not pHing flush water in coco is that it is very difficult to change the pH of the media itself...provided your water does not have high alkalinity. So if you flush a week with RO water you probably do not throw the pH that matters off by too far.

However...take the time to pH the flush water and the taste difference is truly noticeable. I wouldn't say it taste exactly the same as organics done properly...but it tastes as good, in a slightly different way.

Sulfuric acid is H2SO4...which dissociates into H+ and SO4-- in dilute solutions. The plant takes the SO4 up through the roots and the SO4 "feeds" the terpines, it is one element you really do not want to flush completely out. I would highly encourage anyone to at least give it a try and compare for yourself.

But in the end we are all entitled to believe what we believe and we all have different tastes. All I am really doing is suggesting it might be worth a trial for anyone who hasn't tried it and formed their own opinion.

 

[true grit]

I beg to differ. The plant will uptake whatever nutrients it needs. Once it's stored it does not need a balanced ph to use it. You need ph "range" so that everything is available to the plant at the root zone. If it is not in range then certain nutrients cannot be uptaken. Once taken, that plant can now use it or store it.
But, to each his own.
Like I said, it won't hurt none to ph the flush.

Again this is where you are wrong, it has scientifically been proven since tests done in the 1920's on crop plants that the cell tissue pH is directly related to media pH. As is the uptake of the actual plant tissue and cells. Same correlation in fruits, and is sap derivatives...so in other words- the whole plant. Again why proper chelation is vital.

You are mistaking absorption with uptake and processing. Just because a plant drinks up the water doesn't mean whats in it are being utilized properly (we use coco, one of the most absorbing/wicking medias available). I'll show you a plant that drinks nutes all day, and if its locked out, its locked out and finishes nice and yellow and shitty but will absorb whatever you throw it.

 

[evlme2]

I'm confused by your last paragraph but...
I saw/tasted no difference whatsoever when I ph'd the flush and stopped ph'ing the flush. None. No change in the way the leaves changed colors, nothing.
Like waywardson said, one should just try it for themselves and decide.:bubblez:
*EDIT* Wanted to add that my tap ph is 7.5:RastaBong:

 

[true grit]

The last paragraph is basically saying a plant media will absorb whatever you put in it, but that does not mean the plant is USING what you put in it. A plant can be locked out and drink water and stay alive- but that does not make it a healthy plant or a plant worth a shit.

Like I said, ya don't have to pH, don't hurt my feelings...but ill keep smokin better flushed buds with great yield and swell during my clean flush. Other things i do as well for flush, but at this point if folks dont even wanna pH- why waste the finger strength.

 

[waywardson]

I would be highly interested in what other things you do for flush. Based on what you are saying I will guarantee you I will give them a fair trial. I am finding what you are writing fascinating, I hope you do think you are wasting your time.

edit...sorry, found what you do. When you say cal are you talking cal/mag, cal chloride, something else?

 

[Seamaiden]

And cmon Seamaiden- you flushed twice at right ph and saw nothing? Your not gonna be able to see a visual change from your plant tissue actually being able to process what it needs to. If you do it correctly at the beginning of flush til the end you will just have plants that dont yellow, wither, or crumble as come to conclusion. You will get more flavorful, aromatic and clean buds. Thats why folks can't tell the difference between my coco and organic.

And neither can they tell mine. Not to be rude, but I think you're purposely being obtuse when I try to simply explain what *I* mean when I talk about something. I'm not trying to shove it down your throat, just clarifying where I'm coming from.

To clarify, I didn't only flush twice, that's idiotic, TG. I finished two entire runs pHing the water that I used at the end (i.e. 'flush' water).

But you can't and won't be sampling what I grow, so you wouldn't know. Those who have, do.

 

[true grit]

Obtuse would mean Im not explaining exactly what i mean or do so insensitively. Pretty sure I exactly explained what I was trying to convey that contradicts your logic...sensitively or not. Im not here to make people happy, im trying to help people grow better. Don't want the advice, don't take it. Keep flushing however yall think is better.. Ill keep improving my methods...