Organic soil and using pH up/down

[growmie]

I was curious to know if using and adjusting water pH with pH up/down is bad or harmful to organic soil/super soils.

Some growers use natural sources, some buy organic pH up/down, and then there's the one most of us use by General Hydroponics., pH up/down. It seems that it's safe to use in organic soil per their reply.

I asked the folks at GH, they replied below.

"Good morning, Nothing we make will harm microbes in the substrate or attached to roots when used as directed- it's all about ensuring pH values are on point when irrigating to assure it is within acceptable range for the microbial populations."

 

[mancorn]

Of course that’s what GH said. Water has a minimum affect on the pH in soil (unless you add battery acid ). Only consistent watering with extreme pH levels (below 5 or above 9) over a prolonged period might slowly shift soil pH. My tap is above 9 and my soil actually dropped below 6 this year. (Probably form too much organic matter in the soil.) It’s really only applicable in hydro & substrates (coco, rockwool, etc.) Save yourself the hassle.

 

[Natep]

I wouldn’t us synthetics with organics. It’s not really necessary to adjust ph.

 

[growmie]

Of course that’s what GH said. Water has a minimum affect on the pH in soil (unless you add battery acid ). Only consistent watering with extreme pH levels (below 5 or above 9) over a prolonged period might slowly shift soil pH. My tap is above 9 and my soil actually dropped below 6 this year. (Probably form too much organic matter in the soil.) It’s really only applicable in hydro & substrates (coco, rockwool, etc.) Save yourself the hassle.

yep... My tap water is 8.5, usually people who grow organic don't worry about pH until there is a problem like nutrient lock out. i wanted to monitor water pH so my plants don't run into that issue. I also wanted to make sure the ph up/down doesn't destroy the organics in the soil. I figured I'd ask before i started using it.

 

[growmie]

It’s not really necessary to adjust ph.

this is what i hear all the time, but I've seen organic growers eventually have pH issues that cause nutrient lockout. then they say i wish i monitored pH. what do you recommend?

 

[mancorn]

yep... My tap water is 8.5, usually people who grow organic don't worry about pH until there is a problem like nutrient lock out. i wanted to monitor water pH so my plants don't run into that issue. I also wanted to make sure the ph up/down doesn't destroy the organics in the soil. I figured I'd ask before i started using it.

Not like it’s going to destroy your soil. Rather it’s just not needed. Just do a search on “soil buffering”. Adjusting your water pH isn’t going to effect your soil pH (which is what matters).

 

[mancorn]

what do you recommend?

I’m guessing you’re indoors in which case I’d also guess that you’re swapping out your soil. If so, almost assuredly the soil is within an acceptable range and you’re not going to get a lockout that quickly. But if you’re in beds/ground then you should do an annual soil test (which is only around $20-$30).

Edit: If you’re still concerned do a slurry test on your soil and you’ll know if things get wonky.

 

[OldSalty]

pH down and pH up consist of dilute phosphoric acid and potassium carbonate respectively. Phosphoric acid is a weak acid found in some foods. Potassium carbonate is a weak base and is also used in foodstuffs. While they are inorganic, they should have no negative impact on organic soils when used appropriately. But you can also use natural products as you see fit.

Theoretically they would add phosphorus and potassium respectively. But, given the fact that you normally need drops per gallon, there will be little contribution to nutrient levels.

As to the need to monitor and control pH? I have limited experience but I have found that it depends. I had super soils that were well buffered and held out until the end. But the premium bag soils would get squirrelly after a few months. Ph would swing and nutrients would get depleted. I’m giving coco coir a try. Horrible buffering and ion exchange properties but huge plants. Talk about the need to tweak!

 

[countryboy69]

been running organics for a minute..long minute.some will say no PH required in organics,some say yes.its really how well you can read your plants and what they are showing you..ill give a lil advice for PH balance in organics..add oyster shell flour to soil at start of grow(will keep PH in check further down the road,but takes a minute to break down)..from yrs of experience ive used lime juice/lemon juice/orange peels and yes,the PH up/down solution.ive not had any issues with the synth PH up/down in my soil..BUT..you cant be wayyy outta wack(like a 5.0 or 8.0)and put alot in your soil or youll kill the microbes that feed your soil..it is fine to use small amounts IF you see a issue..use dry ammendments(oyster shell/crab claws) on start and bout week 6(takes min to break down)..KISS grow=keep it stupid simple.

 

[Week4Bytch]

this is what i hear all the time, but I've seen organic growers eventually have pH issues that cause nutrient lockout. then they say i wish i monitored pH. what do you recommend?

Probably repeating myself here... it's not pH issues it's a lockout issue they are having, from the calcium carbonate build up that's inherited to hard tap water. (See all that lime build up near your faucets and shower head? Calcium Carbonate build up, now imagine that building up in your soil)

 

[carlosescobar]

Im a new grower and i wanted to grow in soil with all associated microbes and bacteria, i wanted to use natural ingrediants so ive been ph down my water with lemon juice, i ended up with small rootballs and yield and i now realise this is the worse thing i could have been doing as lemon kills all bacteria and the stuff i needed around the roots ...ive started using ph down but i think i might just not bother ,
this is the video about lemon juice which stopped me using it

 

[Gper]

I was curious to know if using and adjusting water pH with pH up/down is bad or harmful to organic soil/super soils.

Some growers use natural sources, some buy organic pH up/down, and then there's the one most of us use by General Hydroponics., pH up/down. It seems that it's safe to use in organic soil per their reply.

I asked the folks at GH, they replied below.

"Good morning, Nothing we make will harm microbes in the substrate or attached to roots when used as directed- it's all about ensuring pH values are on point when irrigating to assure it is within acceptable range for the microbial populations."

If you want to use something that will work for ph up and down with organic soil....
Citric acid will lower your ph as well as your ppms.... and baking soda will raise your ph...

 

[Blastfact]

Organics can't and won't correct really high or low ph and make your world rotate good. If your water ph is in the 6 or 7's,,,,, yeah your golden. Down in the 5's or up in the 8's,,, your out. I got caught out the last few months with wild ph swings out of my tap and was watering the plants like normal. Doing a roll my own organic with Ocean Forest, Gaia Green, Worm Castings, DE, and other organic inputs. Tap runs mid 7's for the most part with the municipal water source being lake water. Plants went whack. Presenting like leaf burn, not enough phosphate, Cal/Mag and other weird stuff. Might be just one stem group or down low or up high. Really strange what was happening.

About a month ago I thought,,, well check the ph numbskull. Sure enough 8.5+. I knew I had screwed up. I contacted a buddy of mine that is a certified retired water plant operator that checks our water all the time. He told me the ph had been swinging around like a drunk sailor in a whore house. That explained it. Lake water and we have been cycling through drought periods in Oil country Oklahoma,,, Not good.

Took 1/2 ml of PH Down to bring it down in the high 6's per. gal. A tiny pinch of Ascorbic Acid / Vitamin C Powder did the same thing. The PH swings in my water unchecked did far more damage to my grow than the cure ever will at any level. Soon as I fired up ph pens up and went through calibration and started dropping the ph the plants started recovering. It's good there photos. But there was one lone auto in the grow and she finished but massively stunted with no chance of recovery.

I started dosing heavy with recharge and Great White and gave them more Gaia Green. But I doubt the plants will completely recover from my laziness. So working now to get the microbes working again. And tiny amounts of acid is not going to kill them like massive amounts alkalinity did. And when ph gets to low or high organics wont control the issue on it's merit. That's just flat out to much to ask of the organic system.

 

[OurGas]

Probably repeating myself here... it's not pH issues it's a lockout issue they are having, from the calcium carbonate build up that's inherited to hard tap water. (See all that lime build up near your faucets and shower head? Calcium Carbonate build up, now imagine that building up in your soil)

Carbonate in water is attached to the hydrogen it stold from exchanges sites and swapped with free dissolved calcium ions.

The same people who blame carbonated act like the Ca++ ion itself plays no role in pH.


A healthy soil will be 6.4 pH and there's nothing you can do about that. The balance of nature is one thing we should all submit to.

 

[Natep]

I wouldn’t us synthetics with organics. It’s not really necessary to adjust ph.

Lemon juice or home made vinegar to bring it down.

 

[Week4Bytch]

I suppose that could work for the short term, the healthier option would be to get the soils pH balanced with proper inputs vs with the water source. The "organic" soil feeds the plant, not the water. That's why the waters pH isn't that big of an impact, if at all. The larger the soil mass the larger the buffering capacity. If your soils pH is at 6.5, it will stay at 6.5 no matter the pH of the water. One could make a point that extreme pH swings of the water should be neutralized. Maybe. If your soils pH is outside the 6-7 pH range, it's not the water that's causing it. It's your soil.

 

[Dave61]

I'm in Ocean forrest. I use GH nutes lucas formula. I ph with GH up down.

Reason for post: I use store bought H2O. I have found the "Magic water"
____________________________________
Walmart brand (great value) distilled water. It always has ph at 5.5-6.0 right out of the gallon jug ($2).
Add nutes -lucas 8M/16B (flowering)
And make final adjustments to ph.

Again I share for peeps that don't want to mess around with tap water etc. This is the cheap magic ph water.

 

[RoadKillSkunkHunt]

Probably repeating myself here... it's not pH issues it's a lockout issue they are having, from the calcium carbonate build up that's inherited to hard tap water. (See all that lime build up near your faucets and shower head? Calcium Carbonate build up, now imagine that building up in your soil)

^^^ This so far is the best answer to why people who's tap water is hard have lockout issues. ^^^ Its due to calcium build-up locking just about every other nutrient out. I'm in soil. I use filtered water. I also don't use cal-mag during veg unless for some odd reason I see calcium deficiencies. (It's not common but it can happen.) Magnesium on the other hand is critical. I use epsom salts during veg up until about the 3rd week of 12/12. At that time, I switch to cal-mag. Since I started that routine several years ago, I never see calcium lock out issues because I'm not dumping excess calcium into my soil mix during veg.

Moral of the story here is too much calcium building up in your soil will cause problems and water that pH's at 8.5-9 is almost always full of calcium.

 

[RoadKillSkunkHunt]

I'm in Ocean forrest. I use GH nutes lucas formula. I ph with GH up down.

Reason for post: I use store bought H2O. I have found the "Magic water"
____________________________________
Walmart brand (great value) distilled water. It always has ph at 5.5-6.0 right out of the gallon jug ($2).
Add nutes -lucas 8M/16B (flowering)
And make final adjustments to ph.

Again I share for peeps that don't want to mess around with tap water etc. This is the cheap magic ph water.

It's my understanding that the "Lucas" approach is for coco/hydro. Not soil. If you are concerned about adding too much nitrogen, simply shift to another feed level or cut the amount per gallon in half.

Personally, I'm not a fan of making these kind of adjustments. GH has a robust research and development team. They also have a good quality control team. And here's the kicker ... GH itself recommends using all three parts for the best results in any medium, including soil.

@Dave61 I'm really not interested in a full out debate over this but I am curious what your reasoning is to for-go "FloraGrow?" I've been using GH Flora series TRIO in Fox Farm Ocean Forest for years without issue.

 

[Dave61]

I have put in hundreds of hours of research on using GH flora series in soil. GH of course says their flora series works on soil. But as I read and researched deeper I kept running into info on nitrogen issues. I finally decided cutting out grow has no downside...but...continued use could have downside.