Over, under, lockout? Please Help

[StinkyPete]

Hello Farmers, I need some good advice from everyone. These are 10 weeks old, 2 weeks into flower. I have noticed some yellowing and browning of the older, lower leaves. The past few days the middle and upper fans on a few plants began to yellow and turn purple on the leaf undersides. I am not sure if this is lockout, overfert, or underfert. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks

Hydro Growers:
1. Are you growing from seed or clones?
Clones Purple Urkle
2. How old are your plants?
10 weeks
3. How tall are your plants?
4ft
4. What type of hydro system are you using?
pure Earth Juice coco 7gal smart pots
5. What brand/type of nutrients are you using?
Heavy 16, Big Bud, Bud Candy, Great White, Fulvic, Drip Clean, Roots Excel
6. What is the Ph of your nutrient solution?
5.6-5.8
7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water?
110/230 (.5)
8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution?
900/1820 (.5)
9. What is the temperature of your nutrient solution?
68F
10. Does your PPM/EC show a rise or fall when you do your daily PPM check?
runoff is lower by .2-.4 EC
11. Does your pH show a rise or fall when you do your daily check?
runoff ph is 6.2-6.5
12. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything?
foliar magic green once a week, sns217 and azamax as preventative
13. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined?
3 Horti Dual Arcs, 1 Sunmaster SuperHPS 4K total
14. How close are your lights to the plants?
18-24"
15. What size is your grow space in square feet?
8x12x8
16. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space?
60-70F 60-70% lights out, 65-75F 55-65% lights on
17. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space?
no, yellow sticky traps are out only catching dust
18. How much experience do you have growing?
1 1/2 years

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Wash with distilled water after your poison application. Personally I detest poisons, but that's my prerogative. It looks like you're misapplying nitrogen and maybe suffocating your leafs under a film of Azamax. A day after poison application spray clean with water.

In the meantime maybe re-evaluate your watering and feeding. It's hard to give a conclusive diagnosis with so few photo's, but overwatering-underwatering is a common problem. The light green color looks like nitrogen deficiency, but it could be another issue easily.

 

[StinkyPete]

Thanks for the quick reply Dr. Detroit. I always wash off the leaves after spraying and only use azamax once or twice in the first 2 weeks of flower. The funny thing is that these specific clones have not been treated with azamax yet, only sns and wet betty/magic green. Currently each 7gal sp gets 2 gals of water a day on a feed, feed, water routine. What exactly do you mean by misapplying nitrogen? Too much, not enough? Thanks for all of the help, I really want to get this figured out before its too late. Here's some more pics that were not taken with the phone haha. The first pic is without a flash and the next 3 are with a flash so you can get an idea what this looks like in different lighting.

 

[Seamaiden]

That is so weird. If I saw reddened petioles along with the leaves I would say you have a phosphorous deficiency, but the petioles appear to be pretty green. Maybe that's the place to start. I see you've listed Fulvic along with your nutes, but aren't giving ratios or feeding frequencies. I feel that the pH at which you're feeding is too low, with coco I go for 5.8-6.2, and I don't concern myself with run-off pH. If I'm concerned with the media itself, I test that, not the run-off.

I've only used Big Bud, and only as a bloom booster every ten days or so after flipping. I also use Ca and Mg in coco pretty extensively. I will have to look up the other products, but I'd have to say that assuming everything else is in balance or available, more nitrogen would help them green up.

If those were my girls and they've been flipped within the past week or two I would do a big leg-shaving party on them, too. Help them work to feed the areas we need them to feed instead of all the crap underneath. But that's just me.

Ya know what? I'm a lover of sea-stuff (go figure). If you're not using any seaweed, either something like Algin or Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest, or my favorite Growmore seaweed extract, how about you try adding some of that to your regimen? Don't try to measure its EC/ppm and think you're going to get anything resembling accurate, just pH and feed it. Or foliar it (I'm assuming you're using a surfactant when you foliar, yes? to break surface tension) at quarter strength.

A worm casting tea would probably make them behave a little better, too.

 

[StinkyPete]

Seamaiden, thanks for the reply. I agree with you about this being a weird scenario. I did notice that the petioles on upper leaves have a distinct red color, so maybe that’s what this is. I did a flush yesterday with vermiT and a regular feeding today, we will see how they look tomorrow. I added a couple of recent pictures, so maybe they will help with a diagnosis.

As far a nutes are concerned I am hand watering 2 gals every day to each 7gal smart pot. They are on a feed, feed, water routine. I started flower at 1.8ec working my way up. Feed today at 2.0ec, will shoot for around 2.3ec at full bloom. Today’s feed was 5ml bud candy, 5ml fulvic, 5ml big bud, .4ml drip clean, 1ml roots excel, 10ml heavy16 bud a&b. All measurements per gallon. I took your advice Seamaiden and raised the ph to 5.8, will also foliar some maxicrop and wet betty. Not using a cal/mg because i'm on tap. 10-20ppm of mg and 50-70ppm of cal in tap already, plus heavy 16 has 1.6% mg and 4.2% ca in the bud formula. I was using a cal/mg in veg, but felt the extra cal could be locking up others, just an observation on my part.

As far as the shaving party is concerned, would it positively benefit my yield? I have also thought about cleaning out the bottoms, but dds is always is the back of my head "every fan leaf you pluck cost you yield bro". Idk I’m not really opposed to it, just don't want to take anything away from the ladies that they might need, ya know.

What would you reccomed for a worm casing tea, brew my own or buy a bottle? My store has a product called Dr. Pursifulls organic worm tea.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Seamaiden]

I make my own casting tea, but if you prefer to use something bottled I won't bag on ya for it.

As for how to control that canopy, yes, there are absolutely different schools of thought on it, and they were confusing me. Then one day I happened to decide to look into Medjool date farming.

Turns out that the way the very best Medjools are farmed is rather close to what my mom made me do with the fruit trees when I was a kid. You select OUT fruit so as to ensure that what remains will grow into the biggest and best.

The concept, and with Medjools it's apparently a fact, is based on how much a given tree is going to produce in a season, and that is a weight-based parameter. So, if the Tree X is going to produce 100lbs of fruit no matter what, then it's the farmer's job to ensure that it only produces the best, largest fruit. They do that by rigorously selecting out dates, giving the best dates something like 3" of space in between, selecting out bracts that don't appear as though they're going to produce well. And they have to do all of that between these awesome spikes the palm grows.

And so with Mary I have interpreted the old-timers' recommendations of canopy control to be essentially the same thing. We remove all bud sites that are below the point of good light penetration because they will never grow into big, fat buds. I personally prefer to remove everything down below a certain point so as to ensure a few things like fewer sites for pests to hide, less likelihood of the plant trying to regenerate that crappy bud growth, and better air flow through the canopy.

That's specifically for a SoG/ScroG situation. If someone is doing vertical and growing trees, then their methods of canopy control may (would?) be different.

So, it's not so much removing fan leaves that I'm getting at when I talk about canopy control, although to be sure fans do end up being removed. It's just as much about creating a canopy that will allow for the biggest buds to develop where they're naturally going to develop, which is via an umbrella shape to the canopy.

ALL of this said, however, if you've grown in this style and gotten good buds all up and down the ladies, then don't change it on account of what I have to say, because it should always be remembered that the grow has to fit the grower.

 

[Kcar]

7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water?
110/230 (.5)
8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution?
900/1820 (.5)

What do you mean by 900/1820 (.5)?

That would be 1.8ec and 3.6ec respectively.

 

[Mmmmasonite]

PPMs are too high....looks like nute burn to me.....here is a general safe ppm scale.....early veg=200-400....mid/late veg=400-600....early flower=600-800....mid flower=700-900....late flower=800-1100....

Some strains can take more but it isn't necessary.....good luck

 

[StinkyPete]

Seamaiden, thanks for the info regarding canopy control. It took me a few days of thinking about what you said, but I shaved them up. The next day they looked much happier and it seemed to jump-start bud growth. I put up a couple of recent pics for you to take a look at. I'm thinking that the purpling on the leaf undersides may be genetic? I have not seen the leaves purpling this early in previous runs, but I am in a new and improved enviroment. The final pic is the same strain from the old room, no purple?


Kcar, I meant 900ppm or 1.8ec at a .5 conv.


Mmmmasonite, I would have to agree with you. After increasing nutes by about 10% to fix the deficiency, I noticed clear signs of nute burn. I dropped the ec to 1.7 from 1.8-.9 last week. I am starting week 4 tonight and will aim for 1.8ec. Thanks for the help, how do you think they look in the current pics?