You need to ease into all areas of the grow....Low c02(I don't turn on my c02 until plants have been in any room for 5-7 days), Low ppm, Low PH and Low lumens...Cant throw a supercharger on a yugo...Need to have patience...

mc

I posted the below on icmag for some additional insight so some of you have already heard some of the info but theres new stuff and i need new help, I've tried numerous suggestions on this site from just watering with water and b-1 to lowering nute ppm down to 400-500, ph down to 5.6-5.7. Nothing worked. Please read below and offer any suggestions, I'm serious about the reward and any of you who have dealt with me know I will stand by my word. Thanks in advance.
So we have some major issues with our sealed room mpb buckets, I'll give you a list of materials, nute regimen and past failed diagnosis to see if anyone can help, we're in a bad spot at this point.
Materials:
5 ton Excel Aire AC
12k hps/MH mixed exposed vertical bulbs
10-23 gallon mini res's
2 hi blow 80 air pumps running 2 stones per bucket
2 ton chill king chiller keeps water temps at constant 66-68
3.5 gallon buckets with grow rocks in mini res lid
2-1800 gph pumps for filling res's
2-1500 gph for drip
4" return line
210 gallon main reservoir, well aerated
Intellidose ph monitor and doser
CO2 burner with soletel monitor
Temps remain constant at 78 daytime with 72 night time, 18 hours on, 6 off.

Nutrients- PPM at 600-800 pH 5.7-5.8
AN Sensi A&B
Roots excelerator- H&G
Multizen- H&G
Algen- H&G
Cal Mag

So initial diagnosis after dealing with some other snafus, was cal mag deficiencies, phosphorous and some other potentials. We did a flush with 200 ppm well rounded solution then started back with low 450-550 ppm feed. No change what so ever. We lowered the CO2 ppm to around 700, not much above ambient air. Did a light top feed with a light liquid kelp, small signs of improvement but short lived. The plants are growing, nowhere near the rate they should and deficiences/toxicity continues. This is now round 3 and same thing keeps happening. The more sativa like plants seem to show a more intense yellowing on new growth, turning to almost completely yellow. At first it looks like a manganese deficiency but progresses quickly into a twisted gnarly leaf with browned edges. The indicas show more cal mag related deficiencies but both share the similar traits eventually.
At this point, I should mention I'm a fairly experienced grower having grown in most types of medium and most hydroponic systems. Under current/dwc is different and sensitive but I did massive amounts of research and asked tons of questions before trying it so give me the benefit of the doubt that I've tried almost all practical solutions to nutrient related issues and many suggestions others have presented, giving them all time to work if at all. We have a coco flood and drain system right next door that is doing beautifully and consistently doing 1.25-1.5 a light.
Here is the kicker before anyone makes up there mind. We recently had to bring in some of our coco moms into the room with the buckets because of unrelated issues. The coco moms stayed on their same nutrient regimen they've been on for years which is similar to the buckets. WE use sensi a and b, cal mag, rhizotonic, liquid karma and sometimes hygrozyme at 5.8 and 900 ppm, producing great bright green moms for years. After 3 days in the same room with the buckets, those plants started showing similar deficiences and issues. Indicas are showing rust spots and some drooping and sativas are showing extreme yellowing at all new growth shoots with a little contortion of the leaves. We put one back in the mom room and it went away.
WE now believe to have an environmental issue but the only things different in the bucket room from the coco room are CO2, the plastic tubs for the buckets and the black 4" drain pipe. I know of several people using the exact same drain pipes and tubs so I do't think thats it. Our last attempt at a diagnosis is a possible natural gas link in the CO2 burners connection. Additionally, the pilot light seems to go out a bit too often and the way this system works, I think that means a small amoutn of gas would be constantly emitted into the room and being that its a sealed room, the gas could easily build up for hours. Nat gas is toxic to plants but I'm at what levels. Anyone hear of something similar before? The closest I've seen is when I had some moms in the original hydrohut 3 years ago before I knew of the offgasing issue and my plants would turn yellow quickly before going almost white and the symptoms are very similar here.
If this proves to be another false diagnosis, we're in a bad spot. We have over 40k invested, 4 months wasted and all the electricity use. At this point I'm willing to offer a reward to anyone that can offer a diagnosis and solution. These are pics of the last round, I know everyone will think its nutrient but I really think something else is at least not allowing the plants to uptake nutrients properly, hoping the gas could be the problem.
Thanks in advance for the help and apologies for the long post but I know the more info the better.

Ridge, I think you already have the diagnosis. Too much too fast. The ladies are stressed, and they just stop growing when that happens. Your examples show the same things my mpb's do when I push them really hard, except your are way worse.. Is it possible to veg up a new round and start with 2 lights and add a light every 2nd day. Then flip after 2 weeks of MPB veg.


Sorry about your troubles. It really is a great system but its a babysitter for sure..

Ridge said:

We recently had to bring in some of our coco moms into the room with the buckets because of unrelated issues. The coco moms stayed on their same nutrient regimen they've been on for years which is similar to the buckets. WE use sensi a and b, cal mag, rhizotonic, liquid karma and sometimes hygrozyme at 5.8 and 900 ppm, producing great bright green moms for years. After 3 days in the same room with the buckets, those plants started showing similar deficiences and issues. Indicas are showing rust spots and some drooping and sativas are showing extreme yellowing at all new growth shoots with a little contortion of the leaves. We put one back in the mom room and it went away.

Click to expand...

what are the footcandle levels in each of the rooms?









Papa

Thanks for the interest anbd support. To be honest, I don't know the footcandles, I don't have a light meter but I can tell you the lights are 6 ft from the plants, hanging vertically. We made two changes in the room, we put a charcoal filter in the room as a scrubber only and left the door open for 8 hours (since its a sealed room) with a basic box fan in the doorway to pull air out. The plants showed signs of reversal by the next morning, 16 hours later. So its definitely something environmental in the air. We shut the gas off 2 days ago but I don't think that was it because we took a plant out of that room and it reversed the yellowing immediately and we didn't see a difference the following day we shut off the gas in the rest of the room.
So, the good news is, we have narrowed down the problem to an air issue, the bad news is still we don't know what it is. We really want to do a sealed room so I hope good ventilation isn't our only answer. There is something toxic in the room and we have no clue what it is. We're using the same materials everyone else is on the forum. Can I get a air test done somehow for christs sake? It never ends . . .

Holy shit.. Can you just panda the room in the lean time to eliminate the possibility of some sort of old lead paint offgasing or something.. (i dunno, just a thought..)

Hey bro,
I feel for ya with the issues. I have had a few in my first MPB run.
I have ran closed enviroment for awhile though. And IMO the charcoal scrubber is
a must have. And it may have been a big part of the problem. I run mine 24 hrs a day.
Also they like to be started at around 1000ppm C02 then work it up just like nutes.
And also back down at the end.
I would cover those black tubs with some panda including the entire top.
Black absorbs heat and make"s the chiller work harder.

If it does turn out to be some type of air toxin.
Then I would get a 5 gallon bucket of Ona gel pro.
Fill another 5 gallon bucket with a 1\2 gallon of the ona and add 1\2 gallon water.
Drill some holes a few inches above the liquid level.
Then attach a fan to the top pulling air through the holes. Top off as needed.
I had to use that after getting caried away with duct tape.
The glue smell from duct tape is horible.I barely use it anymore.

I hope this helps,

I actually thought of that and may still do it, or do a complete sanitization spray with a mild bleach spray(with the plants removed of course). We built the room and the walls though and the same paint in that room is in other rooms where plants are thriving healthy. A friend has suggested a cracked bulb, said there's deadly gas in the bulbs??? Is that far fetched?

I have never heard of such a thing.
But that doesnt mean its not posible.
Was there any kind of air filtration before the charcoal filter?
They really do like the fresh scrubbed air.

It looks like you just have a concrete floor from your pics but is there any chance you have linoleum on your floor? A friend killed several runs in a row trying to figure out what his problem was in his brand new grow room and the linoleum was off gassing and killing the plants. It's a long shot but I thought I would mention it. Is there anything else in the room that might off gas? Maybe some of these plastic containers? Maybe the paint? Just some thoughts.

Ridge said:

I actually thought of that and may still do it, or do a complete sanitization spray with a mild bleach spray(with the plants removed of course). We built the room and the walls though and the same paint in that room is in other rooms where plants are thriving healthy. A friend has suggested a cracked bulb, said there's deadly gas in the bulbs??? Is that far fetched?

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That's far fetched...a cracked bulb would not slowly leak..the heat would make it crack and pop...

i would vent the room until u figure out what's up...Im sure your doin that though..

I think u will find ur culprit soon... Your going about solving your issue the right way so just keep at it. It'll most likely be something easily fixed.. Just listen to your plants.. May have to ditch the co2 and sealed room for a bit... U can always go back to a sealed room and patch up the holes from intakes and exhaust if u decide to do so... If u need any help get at me

Bossman- there was no filtration other then the basic filter on the return of the AC air handler. We'll definitely keep the charcoal filter in there for good on 24 hours because keeping the door open for filtration is obviously not happening.
As for the floors, it's concrete but I think we'll cover in panda or some 4 mil clear plastic just in case. Although I love having concrete floors after all the years of worrying about carpet or replacing panda.
I really appreciate the feedback guys, I just looked into getting the air tested and there are companies that send you a compressor and tube kit so you take your own sample and send it back in with the compressor with 24 hour turn around results. I think I'm going to do it regardless because even if we come up with a solution, I still want to know the root of the problem.

Sway said:

That's far fetched...a cracked bulb would not slowly leak..the heat would make it crack and pop...

i would vent the room until u figure out what's up...Im sure your doin that though..

I think u will find ur culprit soon... Your going about solving your issue the right way so just keep at it. It'll most likely be something easily fixed.. Just listen to your plants.. May have to ditch the co2 and sealed room for a bit... U can always go back to a sealed room and patch up the holes from intakes and exhaust if u decide to do so... If u need any help get at me

Click to expand...

Thanks man, if things don't straighten up quick I'll definitely take you up on that. BTW your C4 will bee ready for pick up Sunday, pm me what time you want to come down Sunday or whenever.

Are you running co2 at all? there maybe a small leak or gas somewhere i had a problem with natural gas once it was a small leak but it sits on the floor and gets to the roots just a thought,be well.Peace and stay safe...budmonger

hey ridge.. what are your roots looking like these days?

They are looking better, the ones you can see at least. As we transplant out some fo the more sickly plants, we're going to going to the net pots so we can see the roots better, with the 3.5 gal buckets with holes drilled in them, you can't see them until they grow out the bottom. Since our plants have been doing so poorly, no roots are visible because the plants are barely growing!

ridge brother.. whats the news/?

I would rebuy your nutrients and get some GH and run micro/bloom at 5/10 and keep it at 1 ec, drop your Co2 down to 400 see if they pick up. Have you ever seen the movie "Advanced Nutrients killed my Plants"?

hey ridge, after taking a quick look at your thread and some of the issues you ran into, I have a few questions for you,

whats your current nutrient schedule? ph, tds?
what medium are you using? 4" rockwool? lava rock etc?
what size pump, tubing and emitters are you using for the top feed?
have you checked all the connections on your co2 system with soapy water to make sure, there are no leaks?
any recent pics?

:mooning