Penalized for using medical marijuana by pain clinic

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squiggly

squiggly

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opiates actually act through a pathway which causes un-medicated pain to be much more severe if the pain is chronic. Opiates are best suited to treating temporary pain. It masks pain that will eventually disappear, but makes those which will not much worse. Im on a tablet right now, but I can explain this further later if anyone is interested.
 
passittome2

passittome2

30
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Well I'm not dealing with anything like what your describing. This Dr is legate he spent a long time ging over many options. If I was not such a bleeder shots in the back would have been the first step. But I cannot come off of warfin wih my heart valve. So a change in meds and life is better.

I'll certainly on the cautuios side with it, staying under what has been prescribed and even then only using on days where the pain is so bad I feel no other option.
 
passittome2

passittome2

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Sqiggly, let your brain roll on....tell us what you know to a point......
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Sqiggly, let your brain roll on....tell us what you know to a point......

Sure.

It's difficult to describe this system very well without getting somewhat advanced. Some of what I'll say here will be "take my word for it" type stuff--as its not possible to provide adequate justifications without significant prior knowledge of biological systems and biochemistry.

Ultimately there are 3 things I'll discuss here as it regards the action of opiates--there are far more to consider but this will consist of the basics:

1. Opiates mediate a release of dopamine into the brain and activate the brains inherant "reward" system--this is the facet which can lead to addiction.

2. Opiates act in the spinal cord to prevent pain messages from reaching the brain.

3. Opiates act in the brain to change the SUBJECTIVE experience of pain. I.E. a patient wills say they still feel pain but it "doesn't bother them" anymore.


A bit of further discussion on each point:

1. Opiate abuse can damage this reward or "pleasure" system in the brain. The sudden release of so much dopamine can damage both receptors for the dopamine and the pumps which release it. The net result is that an opiate addict who has been addicted for awhile has reduced their "total pleasure capacity" by damaging the system responsible for mediating pleasure. This is like saying a person can only feel, say, 80% as "good" as they used to feel. Subjectively this effect can take the form of anything from fidgetiness, to laziness, to depression.

2. This is the effect which we're commonly after when we use opiates medically speaking. This is an effect known as analgesia--whereby opiates are able to block transmission of pain messages before they even reach the brain.

3. This is a system which is mediated by endorphins which are released by activation of opiate receptors by an opiate.

For 2 and 3:

These two, together, are what cause a big problem for pain management. Each of these systems can be damaged by opiate over-use or abuse. The effect, on each system individually, is to create a "positive" baseline for pain.

Put it this way:

Lets say your body normally produces 200 units of endorphins which mediate pain (as a baseline). When you are injured at this level, you feel the pain--but if you have 200 units and no injury, there is no pain.

Because you are injured you take medicine to increase the amount of endorphins you have, let's say to 400 units.

If you do this for a short period of time, the effect is not appreciable. However, if you do this continuously for a long period of time--the end result is that your "new" baseline is higher than 200 units. While you may experience pain relief at the level of 400 units, over time the amount of relief you experience will diminish--this is an effect commonly known as tolerance.

If, at this point, you quit the medication and go back down to 200 units (if you have been at elevated levels for too long) your body will actually "prefer" a level of 300 units to be at a baseline "no pain" condition--rather than the previous level of 200 units. Of course I choose this 300 number arbitrarily, my only suggestion is to say that the preference will be higher than its original baseline value, but still less than the medicated value.

The result of this "preference" of your body is to experience dull pain throughout the entire body, and acute pain (more severe than its physical condition should cause) anywhere there is legitimate reason for pain. This is commonly known as a major symptom of withdrawal (although there are others). Ultimately the reason for withdrawal, in this sense, is that your body is not capable of producing the amount of "pain blocking" chemical that the medication is able to give you--and your body has become used to having elevated levels and has now decided that anything below that level consists of a pain response.

I.E. the drug hijacks your pain system, and confuses it into believing that it needs more of what you've been giving it in order to not feel pain--and this is known as physical dependence.

In addition to all of the above, the pumps for these "pain relief" chemicals and their respective receptors may ALSO be damaged through abuse of opiates, and the result is that your new ability to produce the chemical is at a value of say 150 units, and your new ability to receive it (at this production level) is even further reduced from this number, say 100 units.

So lets review.

Your body now prefers 300 units or it feels pain.

You can only produce 150. You can only accept 100 (when you are producing 150--without getting too advanced I can't explain why, but the effect here is exponential).

The net result is that, if you originally needed 400 units to fully remove the experience of a given pain response from a baseline of 200 ( i.e. 400-200 = 200 units for pain relief)

You now FEEL pain about as bad in your entire body (300-100 = 200 units of pain), and if the injury responsible for the initial pain hasn't healed you are now experiencing it at a much higher level (200 units needed for pain relief, 100 available--200-100=100 or a 50% increase).

In the end, the pain you can ultimately experience from opiate misuse is much greater and more permanent than that which comes from injuries which can heal--and for injuries which will NEVER heal, the end result can be increased pain in a non-medicated state from a given baseline value before medication is administered.

This is why opiates are generally bad for chronic pain relief unless an absolute cliff in quality of life has been reached. They are best suited to treating pain stemming from injuries which will heal, as a temporary mask.

At low levels almost no ill-effects are observed such as have been described here, but going even a tiny bit beyond the threshold is all that is required to begin the cycle of damage (and it IS a cycle which falls back in on itself once it is begun). That is why it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that opiates be administered under the care of a physician, and it is ALSO the reason why physicians are so touchy about prescribing opiates when other chemicals are present in the system for which the interactions with opiates are not well understood.

The system itself (opiate pain relief) is robust enough, and misunderstood enough, to warrant caution in new territory (scientifically speaking). Opiates act on the brain stem to affect respiration and many other basal functions of the body. Misuse of this stuff can actually kill you simply through this action alone, and its for that reason that if you can show me a doctor who will prescribe you opiates knowing that you'll use MJ--I can show you an unethical doctor.

Even if experience tells us that opiates and MJ do not react badly with one another--experience isn't always right, especially when it doesn't come with careful scientific consideration. Ultimately, a doctor doing this could kill somebody--and a good doctor will know that.

Any questions, just ask.

Also, please understand that this is a SIGNIFICANTLY simplified overlook of the system at hand--the end results are the same no matter how you choose to describe them, however.
 
sky high

sky high

4,796
313
Simplified...but ohhhh so right on the money.

Kinda makes ya wonder why the docs don't get all of this? Case in point....I went in for my first colonoscopy. I absolutely HATE any of that shit as it is....

So I tell em...as I always do....that I've done shit tons of drugs over the years....and that I was addicted to Oxy for 5 years...and that my tolerance is that of a horse. "I need a double" of whatever yer givin' is the basic convo that transpires..... and I EXPLAIN WHY I have the tolerance and that the drugs don't work on me like they do on JimBob sitting over there who hasn't used/abused drugs for years...

So the nurse shoots me up.....and says "this will "relax" you.... and leaves the room.
Here comes the warmth....and a decent buzz....but hey....nothin I haven't felt before at a buncha parties.... LOL.... So I'm staring at the ceiling......and the nurse yanks the sheet back and looks at me.... at the same time...getting a funny look on her face... and saying ":Somehow I thought you'd still be awake"..... then she starts asking me in detail about the drugs I like(d) to do...the dosages...etc.... when we get to MMJ.....she says "That's it.....these drugs aren't working well for you because you smoke marijuana". I LAUGHED..........

Long story short.....she then takes out another syringe....and says "this will do it".....and again drops the contents into the IV.....

I remember heading into the op room......and hearing them talking..... and then seeing a "Smiley face"..... and then.....YEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOWWWWWWWCCCCCHHHH!

Yup..you got it..... I needed a BIGGER DOSE! However, because of this hospital's policy...I'm getting the info through the minimal fog from the doc as he is showing a tube up my ass that they have given me ALL of the drugs they could.....

fuck me in the ass..... literally..... holy shit.... YEEEEEEOOOOWWWWCCCHHH!

Afterwards (30 mins of pure Hell) I am told that I am 1 in about 1000 patients who have this happen......

fuckin doc was hangin his head WAYYYYY low.....and turned my chart around to show me he had written in red magic marker on my chart "NEEDS MAJOR ANESTHESIA".....

Um......DUH! Fuckin TOLD YOU SO, BITCH!

So yeah....I believe all of what you wrote, squig...... and I definitely experienced FAR less back pain OFF the opiates than I did when I WAS BEING TRICKED BY THE OPIATES. I also now have a much higher tolerance to pain meds.... go figure!

bad news...just bad news...

kick if you can, peeps. You'll be stronger for it and in less pain..

s h
 
ABaby145

ABaby145

1
1
I know this post was a while back but I'd still like to ask if you ever found a solution to your having a medical card and problem going to a pain clinic in Az?
 
vaporedout

vaporedout

1,362
163
this is the first im seeing this post and im shocked..... my wife has been going to pain docs and she has been prescribed pretty much all of these pill you all are talking about. she is VERY open with her MJ use and beliefs with her doctor. she has had countless blood and urine test and never once was she told they could not see her. i guess we should feel lucky.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
this is the first im seeing this post and im shocked..... my wife has been going to pain docs and she has been prescribed pretty much all of these pill you all are talking about. she is VERY open with her MJ use and beliefs with her doctor. she has had countless blood and urine test and never once was she told they could not see her. i guess we should feel lucky.

I'd say yes and no.

On the one hand it's good if your wife need the opiates and doesn't want to give her bud up. I'm of the mind that she should have that choice if she wants it.

On the other hand it makes you wonder about the doctor and where he's coming from on an ethical and scientific basis (doctors are really just hyper-specialized scientists if you ask me).

If it were me I'd be wondering if he's done his due diligence to search for alternatives to opiates in your wife's case, or whether he's keeping himself well abreast of the most recent pain management literature (as any good pain management doc should be).

So while I think there's definitely a bright side element to it, because no one wants to suffer--and I, for one, think people should have the last word on what goes into their bodies--this definitely falls into behavior unbecoming a physician.

That said, he might be the best pain doc on the planet--I wouldn't know. It's just a question of what he can know--and something he can't know is what the long term effects of such treatment might be. While in the end it may be harmless, doctors really are not supposed to inhabit this type of space. From a purely medical standpoint this is an analog to using your wife as a guinea pig, and even while we're all fairly comfortable with the idea that lots of people have mixed opiates and pot and that it's never caused anyone to grow a third arm it doesn't change what this means medically.


In either case, if you and your wife feel lucky--then I'm super glad it worked out for you. That's how it should be.
 
We Solidarity

We Solidarity

1,610
263
I'll say right now that I have never taken strong opiates, for the reason that I've watched them destroy friends lives, and kill others. I'm talking about kids less than 20 years old. It made me move away from my home state because I didn't want to go to everyone's funerals. I couldn't help them for the life of me, and they didn't want to be helped.

those drugs turn you into something that is not human. They WILL change the way you think and interpret the world around you. They will not help you. They will turn you into a weak person with no control over their life. I have yet to see someone who had a problem with opiates make a complete turn-around and be able to enjoy the quality of life they had pre-drugs.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
I have yet to see someone who had a problem with opiates make a complete turn-around and be able to enjoy the quality of life they had pre-drugs.

I've only seen one person do this--and he was really deep in (two years shooting), so it was pretty impressive (I dragged him by his hair 200 miles away from home and moved him into an apartment with me when I left my home town).

Unfortunately that's out of about 30 people (my age) who didn't make it. Heroin and oxycontin were drugs that changed everything in my town.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

442
43
Simplified...but ohhhh so right on the money.

Kinda makes ya wonder why the docs don't get all of this? Case in point....I went in for my first colonoscopy. I absolutely HATE any of that shit as it is....

So I tell em...as I always do....that I've done shit tons of drugs over the years....and that I was addicted to Oxy for 5 years...and that my tolerance is that of a horse. "I need a double" of whatever yer givin' is the basic convo that transpires..... and I EXPLAIN WHY I have the tolerance and that the drugs don't work on me like they do on JimBob sitting over there who hasn't used/abused drugs for years...

So the nurse shoots me up.....and says "this will "relax" you.... and leaves the room.
Here comes the warmth....and a decent buzz....but hey....nothin I haven't felt before at a buncha parties.... LOL.... So I'm staring at the ceiling......and the nurse yanks the sheet back and looks at me.... at the same time...getting a funny look on her face... and saying ":Somehow I thought you'd still be awake"..... then she starts asking me in detail about the drugs I like(d) to do...the dosages...etc.... when we get to MMJ.....she says "That's it.....these drugs aren't working well for you because you smoke marijuana". I LAUGHED..........

Long story short.....she then takes out another syringe....and says "this will do it".....and again drops the contents into the IV.....

I remember heading into the op room......and hearing them talking..... and then seeing a "Smiley face"..... and then.....YEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOWWWWWWWCCCCCHHHH!

Yup..you got it..... I needed a BIGGER DOSE! However, because of this hospital's policy...I'm getting the info through the minimal fog from the doc as he is showing a tube up my ass that they have given me ALL of the drugs they could.....

fuck me in the ass..... literally..... holy shit.... YEEEEEEOOOOWWWWCCCHHH!

Afterwards (30 mins of pure Hell) I am told that I am 1 in about 1000 patients who have this happen......

fuckin doc was hangin his head WAYYYYY low.....and turned my chart around to show me he had written in red magic marker on my chart "NEEDS MAJOR ANESTHESIA".....

Um......DUH! Fuckin TOLD YOU SO, BITCH!

So yeah....I believe all of what you wrote, squig...... and I definitely experienced FAR less back pain OFF the opiates than I did when I WAS BEING TRICKED BY THE OPIATES. I also now have a much higher tolerance to pain meds.... go figure!

bad news...just bad news...

kick if you can, peeps. You'll be stronger for it and in less pain..

s h
LMFAO and good advice.
 
azmmjadvocates

azmmjadvocates

442
43
I'd say yes and no.

On the one hand it's good if your wife need the opiates and doesn't want to give her bud up. I'm of the mind that she should have that choice if she wants it.

On the other hand it makes you wonder about the doctor and where he's coming from on an ethical and scientific basis (doctors are really just hyper-specialized scientists if you ask me).

If it were me I'd be wondering if he's done his due diligence to search for alternatives to opiates in your wife's case, or whether he's keeping himself well abreast of the most recent pain management literature (as any good pain management doc should be).

So while I think there's definitely a bright side element to it, because no one wants to suffer--and I, for one, think people should have the last word on what goes into their bodies--this definitely falls into behavior unbecoming a physician.

That said, he might be the best pain doc on the planet--I wouldn't know. It's just a question of what he can know--and something he can't know is what the long term effects of such treatment might be. While in the end it may be harmless, doctors really are not supposed to inhabit this type of space. From a purely medical standpoint this is an analog to using your wife as a guinea pig, and even while we're all fairly comfortable with the idea that lots of people have mixed opiates and pot and that it's never caused anyone to grow a third arm it doesn't change what this means medically.


In either case, if you and your wife feel lucky--then I'm super glad it worked out for you. That's how it should be.

THanks for that Squig the way you laid it all out is brilliant. It's all a mental sleigh ride though, I even adjust for tolerance with my MMJ but Narcotics I had to give them up all together, the mental clusterfuck of it all ramping up ramping down... Hell I had to quit two years of epidurals from the mental sleigh ride.. The high I got in absence of pain was like total darkness in a cave, when you get use to so much pain you don't even realize it's weight on your body and mind until its gone.. Like you said with narcs the pain is still there but manageable,, when it's gone from an epidural it's gone your in aww, I even push started my truck one time after getting an eppidural, lol the dr. drove by as I was push starting it too lol.. MMJ kinda does the same thing but in a distracting manner, you forget but doesn't have the downside to epidurals... With the epidurals I was always being short a month or two before I could start another series of injections, It felt way worst than I recalled the pain being before, depression and this horrible feeling would just settle in..

Now I just deal with the pain, sometimes I'm down for a bit but drag myself up and push through and have my MMJ to help me.. I've got all the mental shit resolved with so many years under my belt, but it's taken seeing people die that has me despising opiates. Opiates have their place no doubt,,,, in the hospital. MMJ not just does the trick for my pain but also killed my bony tumor, as in gone, no more, gone from recent testing. Now I bet some dr would say different that perhaps the splenda killed it or something but its either that or god in my mind.. Sad so many people out there just don't give a shit to educate themselves about this plant.
 
passittome2

passittome2

30
8
So it's been a long time time now and nothing has changed except I'm off pot and hating every minute of it. Does anyone have a pain clinic in the east side of Phoenix that they go to that can help me?
 
passittome2

passittome2

30
8
Found the driving document for the testing.



It's the wonderful state of IN

IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT THIS THEN Go to

HTTPS://www.popvox.com

You can send a letter to your state representative and the site does all the work for you!

Look up ACLU SUES STATE OF Indiana
 
HookedonPonics

HookedonPonics

543
93
I have a few buddies who never woke up after being on oxy, narcos, or heroin binges, thankfully I was always into physchedelics an herb. But Pain killers lead to stronger drugs and will work for a little but eventually youll just be taking them to avoid withdrawels and the pain will actually feel worse due to the mental and physical dependence. Have yiu looked into other options like potent Edibles or capsules made with Waxes and oils alongside dabbing high thc bho and maybe a vape pen for public relief. Please dont kill yourself slowly just to relieve the pain. There is truelly other options that wont cause your liver to crap out and endless other problems.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
So it's been a long time time now and nothing has changed except I'm off pot and hating every minute of it. Does anyone have a pain clinic in the east side of Phoenix that they go to that can help me?
Really sorry to read this. I can't help you on that, but I can bump!
 
bongobongo

bongobongo

Supporter
729
143
My doctor of 5 years just got raided by the DEA and other organizations for over prescribing narcotics and marijuana. Apparently it's the combination of both that gets attention. I was on 150 mg of dolophine a day. I dropped to 60 with weeks of fucked up side effects.

I made tincture (~20mgs a
Drop at 10 drops a day), edibles (150 mg) and salve (same potency as tincture, holy annointing oil). sucked tincture down all day, ate an edible at night, and would rub salve up and down my legs for RLS. It helped quite a bit but I was
Still stick

Seriously if your having problems getting narcotics maybe you shouldn't be on them. Im coming to this realization, even though I just took my morning dose of 30mgs...

It's a shitty cycle but I feel a fuckton better then when I was on 150mgs... And from 60 to 0 I bet is gonna be the worst expirience yet.

If you need advice go ahead and ask... I've been dealing with this for about 11 years now
 
bongobongo

bongobongo

Supporter
729
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Honestly I'm scared. I've never been so scared in my life. It's a type of scary I can't describe. At times I think killing myself would be a better route. But I'm not gonna go down like that, no fucking way no how.

Like most members I've seen countless people fall to the needle. Friends turned to fiends, sitting in a chair with a rig poking at their arm nodding the fuck out. Take the needle from them and set it next to them and leave the house. All the awhile pumping down methadone fentanyl OxyContin Xanax valiums klonopin... I'd say if my life wasnt a sob story of opiate abuse that's the ONE thing I was proud about. Never popping my vein flower. Nope, can't do it. Even in the doc office I refuse IV.

No matter how much of a functional user
You think you are eventually it will catch up. And eventually it's exactly like squiggly said... I'm feeling like
I'm -150.

It's my own self destruction, and although the outsider would think I have a easy living life.. I have lost more then just a couple "hot girls" to opiates. Hopefully I can get myself to a baseline this year.

Squiggly you scare me more though. I'm trying to delete what I read
 
N

nofingertoe

1
1
there re lots of studies on how marijuana and opioids mix medically and work synergistically with animals, and humans even on the biomechanical cellular level. not ll of it is purely bout thc often they re done on cbd which re the most helpful for pin and regeneration and cancer killing properties. look it up



I'm sorry to inform you--but due to lack of studies about drug interactions with THC, it is unethical for a physician to prescribe you medication while knowing that you have substances in your body which may react with the medication.

This is the ONLY way a physician can protect himself from a malpractice case. It is sad but true.

The culprit here is congressmen who fail to make MMJ an issue (most of them). The only way to circumvent this problem is to have the proper research done and FDA trials performed. Because the plant cannot be patented, and there is a moratorium in much of the country on cannabis research--these (very expensive) trials will have to be paid for by the federal government if they are to be done.

Until such a time comes to pass, it is unethical in every sense of the word for a physician to prescribe opiates, or anything but urgent life-or-death medicine for that matter.

It really sucks, and I'm sorry to hear how this is affecting you. It's terrible--but unfortunately your physician has his future to worry about, and congress isn't worried about your future as it regards this.

My advice: Find out the positions of anyone up for election in your area as it regards cannabis policy, and vote accordingly.

Aside from that, you'll have to make a choice as to which medication you prefer.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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638
Either way, he's right about the situation from a physician's POV. :)
 
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