cemchris
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Starting EC is about 0.5
Water is currently being tested. Waiting for results.
What about the ph drop? Any ideas or did I miss it?The lockout might be from the PH dosing. Remember PH down is a source of P. Silica is going to require more PH down then not using it. You have to account for the added P because of this. Why I run my P so low in my mix cause I'm getting around 30ppm of P just from my PH down dose on mix. Week 4 is about the time they do a full transition from stretch/flower production to full on flower mode. P from LKB, on top of Base Duo P, then adding P every time they get dosed. If you see Mg def on lower leaves is Mg. New growth is Ca. They look the same. Most of the time a Lockout of Mg, when you have plenty, has to do with K not P or the ratio of Ca:Mg. When are you running LKB? All throughout the cycle? Have you done a water report on your base water (i forgot from the first thread we talked about this in). The big concern I would look for is Fe and Carbonate in the base water. Both of those are things that can cause problems specially off well depending on the source. Granted you might have a good dose of Ca in the base water but the problem is it might be Calcium Carbonate which you don't want in high doses. That will have a neg effect on nute mixes. Have you tried dropping LKB out of the line and running strait Duo? Does the the same thing happen at the same time?
As you said before you have tried different nute lines with no avail. Duo is just fine. It's not actual nutes (per say) just might be the strength or the ratio after everything gets added on top of base water.
What exactly are you mixing per gal on everything? Do you have an idea how much PH down is getting added throughout a 1 week dose on the rez including the initial mix of the rez (using a store bought PH down or strait acid)? Just want to break it down to take some of guess work out of it. Why a base water report is good to adjust off of and see what exactly you are feeding ppm wise of each to get an idea if you are hitting a problem area. Easier then guessing. I've only used 3 part and have done a lot of breakdown/tweaking on it not Duo. Just need to look at exactly what the ratio it is when mixed.
Edit:
Cool will wait to see that. 0.5 EC starting water is considered hard. You will most likely have to tweak with something like that. For 3 part you would run hard water micro vs reg micro in that situation. Why I'm leaning towards carbonate buildup and interaction with the mix.
What about the ph drop? Any ideas or did I miss it?
What about the ph drop? Any ideas or did I miss it?
Why I'm leaning towards carbonate buildup and interaction with the mix.
I mean my ph drift is always slower in flower. I can't out my finger on it yet. But like I say I think it's a combination of the plants process and rapid growth. Root respiration, nutrient uptake and concentration, calvin cycle at it's longest and growth at it fastest I think adding these all up can explain it. The part I'm missing most about is the ion and exchange since we don't have the same media as say soil or coco. @Dirtbag just started flowering a week or 2 again so hopefully tagging him will get him to look at his changes in ph drift with the same buffer.
I still feel even a small amount ratio wise of ammonium/ammonia with the increased nutrient concentrations and uptake due to growth rates makes this more pronounced in hydro. You see during flower in soil the tendency for soil ph to plummet and it always attributed to nutrient build up or dying bacteria colonies but I believe there is more to it. The difference is these plant processes and everything else I listed are slower in soil as are the growth rates so I believe it's much less pronounced. The buffering capacity of course would be key and that's where I would lean towards adjusting. Of plant health is not impacted as long as you keep the ph in order than I don't see a need to fix it other than to find out the root cause.
Just my thoughts on paper
If plant health is not impacted as long as you keep the ph in order than I don't see a need to fix it other than to find out the root cause.
High P comes to mind. I think I said it earlier and @cemchris touched on it alsoPlant health is great. No signs of deficiencies. Finished product quality is superb. BUT Im pretty dissatisfied with my cola size or lack thereof. The plants do plateau at about the 4 week mark. So I think these issues are both related symptoms of the same core issue. Whatever that core problem is, Im determined to figure it out. I've never had plants that dont get a cola before. It tells me something is wrong.
The lockout might be from the PH dosing. Remember PH down is a source of P. Silica is going to require more PH down then not using it.
You have to account for the added P because of this. Why I run my P so low in my mix cause I'm getting around 30ppm of P just from my PH down dose on mix. Week 4 is about the time they do a full transition from stretch/flower production to full on flower mode. P from LKB, on top of Base Duo P, then adding P every time they get dosed. If you see Mg def on lower leaves is Mg. New growth is Ca. They look the same. Most of the time a Lockout of Mg, when you have plenty, has to do with K not P or the ratio of Ca:Mg. When are you running LKB? All throughout the cycle?
Have you done a water report on your base water (i forgot from the first thread we talked about this in). The big concern I would look for is Fe and Carbonate in the base water. Both of those are things that can cause problems specially off well depending on the source. Granted you might have a good dose of Ca in the base water but the problem is it might be Calcium Carbonate which you don't want in high doses. That will have a neg effect on nute mixes. Have you tried dropping LKB out of the line and running strait Duo? Does the the same thing happen at the same time?
As you said before you have tried different nute lines with no avail. Duo is just fine. It's not actual nutes (per say) just might be the strength or the ratio after everything gets added on top of base water.
What exactly are you mixing per gal on everything? Do you have an idea how much PH down is getting added throughout a 1 week dose on the rez including the initial mix of the rez (using a store bought PH down or strait acid)? Just want to break it down to take some of guess work out of it. Why a base water report is good to adjust off of and see what exactly you are feeding ppm wise of each to get an idea if you are hitting a problem area. Easier then guessing. I've only used 3 part and have done a lot of breakdown/tweaking on it not Duo. Just need to look at exactly what the ratio it is when mixed.
Cool will wait to see that. 0.5 EC starting water is considered hard. You will most likely have to tweak with something like that. For 3 part you would run hard water micro vs reg micro in that situation. Why I'm leaning towards carbonate buildup and interaction with the mix.
I originally thought this might be the problem. That the silica artificially raised the pH and then extra pH down had to be added. And after the Silica was uptook, there was an abundance of pH down left in the solution. This issue would be consistent across nutrient brands.
Similar to the theory that the P-K was also providing it's own buffering and once eaten, pH would drop. Except in the case of the P-K shortage, it would explain the small colas. The silica would not. This theory would also be consistent across nutrient brands since I was not going full strength on the other brand's P-K because at a certain point there was coagulation due to some reaction to the water so I had to scale it back. Possibly further shorting the plants of P-K
Then I focused on the algae and eliminated it to no avail.
Running it starting in week 2. Didnt get to heavy doses until week 7. I was pretty much running the generic GenHydro feed chart. I was under the impression the FloraDuo line was pretty spoon fed. But I didnt account for the fact that those feed charts are super generic and cant possibly account for all the different grow system types & their various degrees of efficiency. I'd like to think Im running a pretty good system with chillers & all that jazz. Maybe too efficient and I just havent accounted for how well the system was delivering P-K at certain stages. Considering I start with 5" clones, do no veg time, and they are 3' tall in about 3-4 weeks and have tons of nodes & branches. The early development of the plants is spectacular and speaks to the benefits of hydroponics. It's the final half of the grow cycle that has been less than magical.
So have accelerated the feed chart on my newest cycles. Running the "Late Bloom" mix earlier now to lower nitrogen and raise P-K levels. We'll see how this makes a difference. Maybe it will, maybe it wont. But if it doesnt, then I can check the P-K theory off the list.
General Hydro pH Down but have also used alternative brands that were citric acid based. Same issue persisted.
Duo should have the tweaking already done for us. They developed it by basically taking 3 part and the Lucas method, and then making a 2-part program with it. Granted, if following the feed chart, there is still plenty of room for me to screw up the A:B ratios & supplements. Which is my current theory.
Week 4 was as follows:
Mid Bloom
A - 5 ml/gal
B - 15 ml/gal
LKB - 2.5 ml/gal
Si - 2.5 ml/gal
Diamond Nectar - 5 ml/gal
The test results are in...
No E Coli or measurable Bacterias.
Calcium - 39 mg/L
Magnesium - 19 mg/L
Nitrate as N - <40 mg/L
Iron - <100 ug/L
Manganese - <20 ug/L
Arsenic - <2.0 ug/L
Total Hardness - 175 mg/L
The lab said this was a little on the hard side, but according to GenHydro, the "hardwater" 3-part is only necessary if Total Hardness is 200 or more. Calcium if 70 mg/L or more. FloraDuo is made to still work for semi-hard water use https://www.hydrofarm.com/f/i/2l87nsl/Flora Duo_5897.pdf and since I've lowered the A-part as of late, that might compensate for the hardness of my water source.
So yes there is Cal & Mg in the well water. And the Diamond Nectar is there to help chelate it so it is eaten. Thus why I pulled the CaliMagic from the nutrient regimen some time ago.
Yeah I remember you explaining the system in the first round. I think your system is 100% spot on and don't believe that is the root of any of the problems. In fact I think the thoroughness has helped you avoid most of the common problems. Why this is stumping me a little but want to eliminate the easy stuff before diving into the harder stuff.
Edit: Real quick are you getting any preciptate out of the solution? Your dosers are direct feed into the rez if I member right correct? Not inline on the feed water?
. I'm betting if you add no buffer and no PH down you will still see this PH drop.
Damn, still happening? You appear to be nice/smart dude. Hope you get this problem fixed bud.
I believe nitrogen is slightly more available at lower PH.... I just found this. See what ya think.If I had to bet, I’d agree with this statement.
Also because I’ve done cycles with low P-K added, multiple nute brands. Same issue persisted.
EC is at 1.37 ... I cant go much lower. So that rules out EC being too high.
I’ve raised P-K, so this theory has hit the skids.
Upon closer inspection of the zone, I am noticing some N toxicity. Darker green leaves w/ some curling down. Very odd since Ive cut the nitrogen down lower than ever before.
Frustrating.
I used to think I was smart LOL.
The evidence isnt in my favor at the moment.
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