ph/ec flush numbers in or out

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vonwolfen

vonwolfen

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I am flushing in coco. My PH going in is 5.9-6.0. EC is .4-.45. When I checked what was draining out I was getting a PH of 7.2-7.4, and an EC of 2.5-2.8.

I know that the EC is draining, and going down(why it was so high I'm not sure..EC was never over 1.75, and I did a low level(ec of .4-.6 w/ ro water phed at 6.0) flush once every 2 weeks. With drip clean every other watering/feeding.), but I am conffusing about the PH levels. Should I be more concerned about it going in or coming out? Should I adjust the water/flush so that the PH levels coming out are in the 5.8-6.2 range(by lowering the ph to about 5.0. which has the draining water coming out at around 6.5-6.7)) or is it better to have the ph water going in being in the 6.0 range, and not dealing with the draining water's PH levels?
 
F

FromGROtoFLO

Guest
First suggestion - you may want to flush more often.
I went through these problems in a soilless mix and after fucking up 2 runs im scrapping the coco base and going back to cubes.

Coco is legit if you have the time and money to dial it in.
 
JPLord01

JPLord01

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The key with coco is to have run off and not feeding it with a high PPM. Try runing 6/9
and PH at 5.8 and dont trip on your ph run off. If your plant are happy then your on point. And run drip clean at 0.4 mils and water with 15 to 20 % run off. Less is more with growing KISS. How are you feeding your plants and with what?
 
freegrow

freegrow

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coco constantly makes K

the older it is the more K it puts off this guy says it best

Busting the Myth - Everything Coco

Busting the Myth, growing on coco.

In my travels and correspondence around the world, I find there is much confusion about the use of coconut husk litter, after aging commonly known as coco peat or mulch, in crop production. I was first made aware of the product as a potential additive to mineral soil or peat lite mixes in the early 1980’s. The thinking then was that it had too many issues to use as a straight mix but it did produce some interesting auxiliary results when used as a fraction in a potting mix, or as a soil amendment to improve soil structure. It was first introduced to the Royal Botanical Society in 1862 and initially proved to be successful but dropped out of favour because of the inherent issues with coco peat. Now it has exploded into the scene in all manner of applications from fractional to complete; but what are we dealing with and why has there been such a delay in its acceptance into the general market?

First of all, the physical characteristics of coco are unique because the physical and chemical characteristics change dramatically over time. Green or newly harvested mulch is actually the dust and broken fibres obtained by removing the fibres from the husk of a coconut. At this stage the fibres are not usable. After several months of decomposition, the substance begins to acquire some usable characteristics such as better moisture retention, the amount of potassium and other salts released slows to a reasonable level, and the structure remains intact. In this state, there is a fairly short period that the coco peat is usable in container plant production. Ideally, the coco peat has to go degenerate further to actually work with the plant correctly, but by then much of the structure is lost and the usable time in situ is severely shortened. While later stages of coco degradation are very acceptable as a soil amendment, it is not suitable as a sole growing medium. However, the structural problems are just a small part of the issue.
DRINKING SEAWATER?
The availability of the nutrients present is affected on a changing scale along with continuing decomposition. Coconut Palms have the rare ability to utilize seawater solution as its source of water. Seawater has a high EC, or Electrical Conductivity, which is a measure of how concentrated the salt level is. Plant cells cannot survive in water with the salt concentration of seawater. For water to move into the roots of a plant, it has to overcome the Osmotic Potential of the membranes the water molecules pass.
Water moves from an area of low EC to an area of higher EC in an attempt to balance out or achieve equilibrium; where a semi-permeable membrane isolates the two solutions, only certain elements or molecules can cross, typically a water molecule or smaller (selectively permeable), through the process of Osmosis.
Coconut peat has some wonderful physical properties that greatly benefit plant growth.
Membranes can also be selectively permeable, allowing certain size particles to pass while restricting others, In typical soils and container mixes, fertilized at recommended levels, the EC of the root zone moisture, which includes nutrients (in the form of salts), is lower than the internal EC of the root cells, allowing water to move, or diffuse, across the barrier membranes. As root zone EC reaches EC levels of the plant, water movement slows and eventually halts.
Unfortunately, it does not stop here and is capable of moving the other way. This is how most ‘salt burn’ situations arise, but not all. To compensate and get the water from the seawater solution (it is a solution of water plus many and varied salts) to move into the plant, the coconut palm concentrates salts in the areas between the cell walls known as interstitial spaces. This effectively shows an increase in the internal EC while allowing the actual cells to function normally.
Additionally, the process of harvesting the fibres also increase EC levels because the coconut husks are first soaked in seawater (the most abundant water supply close to where coconuts grow), which imparts its salts into all the pores of the coconut material. When decomposition occurs, these salts are released in very high quantities, especially potassium, the most prevalent element found as an ion (salt).
All usable nutrients become available to the plants internal processes as ions, or charged atoms or in functional groups such as nitrates. Ions affect each other. In fact, in the plants processes they are combined in controlled fashion. In a solution with other ions, and no controls, they still combine or associate with other ions of opposite charge. They also affect the availability of each other as similar charges. This is known as antagonism, where large quantities of one element will decrease availability of another element which is available in smaller quantities. In this case, as the concentration of potassium increases, the availability of both calcium and magnesium decreases. It is more commonly known as locking out. When combined with the effects of pH and temperature, precipitation of these salts can occur. The effect works the other way too, when calcium increases the potassium availability decreases. Additionally, Potassium has the ability to almost move throughout a plant at will, it is mostly un-regulated; a characteristic all plants have adapted by harnessing these ions to do work as they move around.
This is all very well and good, but how does that affect the use of coconut peat and mulch with plants? As the coco decomposes, it ‘releases’ salts that increase the EC of the medium which will result in burning and imbalances in calcium and/or magnesium and potassium balances or ratios. The ‘greener’ the coco, the greater the problem. About the time this ‘release’ slows down sufficiently to be able to grow a crop in, the structure of the coco has the characteristics of muck peat and needs amendments such as perlite, sand, pebbles or other large particles added to give the growing medium air. Also, the state of decomposition is at its highest, so what is left will not last long, and it is even in danger of being washed out of the container. We know that if we can control the level of salts AND the ratio of these salts at an earlier stage, we would have the advantage of a good physical structure and a proper nutrient balance.
SPONGES WITH MICROPORES
Coconut peat has some wonderful physical properties that greatly benefit plant growth. To begin with, it is renewable, so in using it you’re not plundering natures resources. It makes use of the final product left over from cultivating and harvesting the much prized nut. At the right point in decomposition, the coco peat can be used as a stand-alone medium with no need to add perlite or other persistent amendments. The coco peat itself is fairly pH stable and buffers the pH well, in a very acceptable range for plant growth. While peat particles are fairly solid and big early on, once they are treated and decomposed to a certain point, they are like sponges with micro-pores that hold water, away from the plant root but available to replenish the larger pores the plant root can access. This effectively limits excess water while holding water in a reserve status. These particles do not retain ions, only what may fill and dry on the particles themselves, so as long as the medium is moist, nutrients are available. At the proper point of decomposition, the particles form the perfect combination of air-to-water spaces, because of the different fractions now present, which can actually mean more air space to water space with the micro-pores holding a reserve of water, giving a nice water buffer to the grower. There is no oil on its surface, unlike peat moss, so wetting the particle is never an issue. The key in all this is to decompose the particle to the perfect point to achieve this. The problem is still that the rate of salt given off remains high at this perfect point.
WELL BALANCED
Controlling the decomposition process, adding the correct nutrient buffer to adjust the ratio, feeding the plants the correct ratio of nutrients to offset the coco ‘release’ will produce the perfect growing conditions. When the medium is not taken into account, the results can be disastrous. Even when fed correctly, and the correct ‘buffer’ of nutrient ratio sets up, just ONE watering with plain water will wreak the buffer sending the plant and medium into shock, rapidly escalating the potassium level. Consequently, plants that do not have enough of some ions such as calcium (there are several) from under feeding or washing out, will show deficiency in these and other elements while the potassium builds up in the plant tissue ultimately to express as margin burning on the leaf surface, mostly at the tip. The first thing the inexperienced grower assumes is that they are feeding too high and have salt issues so they back up the feed concentration and leach the medium. This, of course, magnifies the problem and it gets worse. The key to proper coco growing is to use the right feed to balance the products the coco gives off, not just the availability of minerals, but their ratios too, see figure B. It is equally important to water correctly.
Coco peat holds about 33% more moisture then similar grades of peat based mediums. if it is in good structure, but, because a great amount of this is tucked away in the micro-pores, the medium can look dry but still be sufficiently moist, see figures C-1, C-2 and C-3. The same rules apply here as you would apply to soil or soilless mix: water when the container looses 50% of the maximum water it will hold against gravity, immediately after drainage of a newly watered container. This is done correctly this is done by weight and yes it does change with time, root mass, humidity, temperature and growers temperament! The thumb on the scale syndrome. By closely controlling the decomposition and particle size, there is no need to use anything such as perlite to increase drainage, which has the added advantage of removing the disposal concern. Even more air space can be achieved by increasing the fraction of coco fibres and husks. This results in a totally renewable and biodegradable medium that resists compaction.
Finally, the pH of the medium, when buffered and controlled, remains constant pretty much throughout its useful life. The medium sets its pH at between 5.5 and 6.2, a perfect range, and will hold it there. Unlike peat based products that try to go back to a pH of 4.5 or less within 3 months of being planted. By using the correct age of coco, with the right porosity, coco potting medium should be able to work through almost a year’s worth of cropping before needing to be changed. The pH stays correct and only the structure changes limiting its useful lifespan.
Coco peat holds about 33% more moisture then similar grades of peat based mediums. It can look dry but still be plenty wet.
So, we see that by controlling the ageing process, using the correct ratio of nutrients, using the correct composition of nutrients, and pre-buffering the coco peat, growers can anticipate getting the perfect growing medium, correctly balanced, correctly composed, with good porosity, a water buffer, and a lot less headaches then peat based soilless mix products. That is great for a start, but to complete a crop, it is critical that the correct nutrients be used as well. Consider the coco as needing to be ‘fed’ along with the plants. Once the medium establishes a buffer, which it will do based on the nutrients it detects as right or wrong; the grower can wipe this out by applying plain water to the medium. The medium hangs on to nothing and will readily flush away its nutrients; then the plant will suffer until the buffer is restored. Always use fertilizer when you water coco that a plant is actively growing in, at least at about EC=0.6 mS/cm3. This will hold the balance or ratio of the nutrients to each other and ensure that the plant gets exactly what it needs.
Plants thrive in coco when everything is right. There is one company that provides all the right components, CANNA. CANNA, always researching new pioneering ideas in the horticultural world, began exploring the coconut option when the peat was just giant piles of debris left over from the production of fibres. This debris was deposited around the landscape of producing countries in giant, rotting piles. Each year sees these piles grow higher. Initially these were the sources of coco peat for CANNA, but before bringing the
product to market, they recognised the need for higher controls in order to receive the coveted Dutch RHP standard. They began controlling the product from harvest, through treatment, and into giant concrete bunkers to age to the exact level needed, then buffered, packaged and delivered to the market.
All this is done without steam sterilising, which resulted in other beneficial consequences. By avoiding the steam sterilization to ensure RHP acceptance, CANNA also avoids chemical changes in the medium, nitrate conversions to nitrite forms, which are toxic to most life forms, and best of all, the natural Trichoderma, inherent in coco, remains active, providing a level of protection to the crop no other company can provide. The structure remains intact, the potassium release remains a known variable, and the product is still delivered free from weeds, insects, disease and other soil borne problems.
ONE-STOP-SHOP
Like all its product lines, CANNA believes in the complete package concept. Avoiding errors is essential. The coco growing ‘system’, medium and nutrient line up, were engineered through years of in-house research and countless field tests to provide the correct growing solution, the exact composition and concentration of all the things required for using coco as a growing medium. CANNA COCO nutrients and COGr are designed to work with the exact properties of CANNA Buffered COCO and COGr board. There is no better or easier way to begin and continue the Coco Growing Experience. For even more info on CANNA COCO, get the COCO leaflet or COCO InfoPaper at your favourite gardening store!

this is from another grower
 
vonwolfen

vonwolfen

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The key with coco is to have run off and not feeding it with a high PPM. Try runing 6/9
and PH at 5.8 and dont trip on your ph run off. If your plant are happy then your on point. And run drip clean at 0.4 mils and water with 15 to 20 % run off. Less is more with growing KISS. How are you feeding your plants and with what?

First thanks for the replies

What is 6/9?
The plants seems happy with the exception of my Bubble Chunk(Tripple berryXSuper Chunk or vise versa) which doesn't seem to like anything over 1.5. So thats my fault. My concern was just the large difference between what the ph was going in and coming out. Because of my grow environment I have a hard time with run off. The smart pots have plastic dishes under them, and any run off just starts flooding the grow room. So I take the girls outside(pain in the arse) when I flush them, but I apparently need to do that more then once every 2 weeks. I keep my ec levels under 1.8(perhaps still too high?) for all of the strains(Deadhead OG, Caveman OG, XJ-13, Tahoe OG, Green C(crack/candy),Bubble chunk), although like I said I am lowering the ec levels in the future for the Bub chunk. I use drip clean at 1tsp per 5gallons. I guess as long as the run off ph being so high doesn't harm the plants(they are in their last 2 weeks)then everything should be fine.
 
vonwolfen

vonwolfen

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Freegrow

When the writer says
"At the right point in decomposition, the coco peat can be used as a stand-alone medium with no need to add perlite or other persistent amendments"
is he implying that there is a need for some brands of coco to use something like perlite to augment the coco?

Its a good read(canna ad not withstanding).
 
freegrow

freegrow

Premium Member
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Freegrow

When the writer says
"At the right point in decomposition, the coco peat can be used as a stand-alone medium with no need to add perlite or other persistent amendments"
is he implying that there is a need for some brands of coco to use something like perlite to augment the coco?

Its a good read(canna ad not withstanding).

true that on the canna add

I think it means the coco that we buy is at that stage we add perilite and rice hulls to help with drainage but it can be a stan alone medium am just now after a year of coco pure adding 30% perilite will see how it goes
 
JPLord01

JPLord01

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With your next run build a table for your plants. Put a good slop on it and have it drain into a guter to a bucket. And 6/9 is a mix of 6 mils of micro and 9 mils of bloom of GH.
PH to 5.8 run dripclean at 0.4 mils per gl. This is what 6/9 and a big table with 24 750s will get you. With a drip to waste. This is the watering setup no rez needed.
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RIVAL79

RIVAL79

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Nice setup, JP! What strains u got running in there?
 
JPLord01

JPLord01

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It is some BS purp shit. After this run then some sour OG will be in the mix.
 
GreenSpoon

GreenSpoon

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i use 100% coco, have for yrs, i use drip clean and never have run off, just 2 gallons of 1000ppm solution everyday(in flower)
 
S

Snow Crash

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i use 100% coco, have for yrs, i use drip clean and never have run off, just 2 gallons of 1000ppm solution everyday(in flower)

Of course... Because Drip Clean is a magic potion which is not subject to the physical laws of this universe, allowing matter to be blinked out of existence. Or maybe the Drip Clean teleports the excess food which has not been consumed to H&G factory where they can turn it into nutrients to sell back to you. Of all the things I see on these forums I simply cannot get my head around it would be these Drip Clean posts. Every one of these seems to imply that runoff is not important to remove elements from the media. It is absolutely ridiculous and I hope that a little common sense around here makes that easy to see. Drip Clean is not Va-Poo-Rizer. You are not Jack Black. I am not Ben Stiller. The excess MUST go somewhere.

In my own garden the runoff EC dictates to me how much to feed. I use runoff to keep my runoff EC within 30% of my nutrient solution. If running a 1.0ec in then I prefer to get no more than a 1.3ec out. What I do to keep my system stable is to alternate full strength and half-strength feedings. I never flush. By using a 1/2 strength nutrient solution I maintain the ratios of elements, most importantly the Ca:Mg:K ratio (cations).

If the EC has climbed as high as yours has (hell, my hanna meter starts blinking at 3.99) then this tells you that not only were you feeding more than the plant's required but also that there was not enough runoff to remove the residual buildup. Usually, about 25% is enough runoff for me (4L in, 1L out) when I am feeding at a proper concentration.

As an example, I might mix up 15 gallons of a 1.2ec solution and use 10 gallons of that solution on Monday. Then I would add another 5 gallons of clean water to the remaining 5 gallons of nutrient solution and use this diluted solution on Tuesday. With the reservoir empty, I would repeat the process.

With the cost of each gallon at about $0.10, and even with 33% runoff collected, that would only be a meager $0.50 per day down the drain. At the end of a grow, maybe $20 worth of runoff (because little is used for veg, and the later flush stage at ripening). Compared to $40 for a bottle of drip clean and... I think runoff gives Drip Clean a run for it's magical money.
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
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Getting 25% runoff is very important for coco. Getting 25% runoff and using drip clean is even better. If you are in the beginning stages of your coco learning curve, and you are making mistakes instead of following a dialed formula, drip clean will provide a small buffer of ease and safety that can make your life better.
There is a drip clean thread on another site with lots of anecdotal data. And a ton of extra crap to sift through.
Drip Clean is one of the very few brand-name products that I always use and recommend to others. And I am a cheapskate when it comes to nutrients and additives.
Eventually I will find someone's chemical recipe for it and duplicate it for next to nothing.
It is very cost effective given the application rate of .1 ml/L.

Snow Crash is correct, it would be in your best interest for plant health and quality of meds to get runoff consistently.
 
vonwolfen

vonwolfen

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Thanks for all the feedback. I really do appreciate it. To those of you who sent me a PM thanks again for going above and beyond..Take care everyone, and Happy New Year.
 
GreenSpoon

GreenSpoon

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they look healthy now but you know the second they dont im gonna do a semi flush with Ph'ed water, but still they will remain in trays . .. . . . . .. . i will keep it in mind if i see and lockouts but i normally dont . .. unless its a new plant, i try to feed just under/over the plants needs everyday . . . . . .so no build up happens,idk?, and idk about the organic nutrients im suing(where i use sea green) but the canna nutrients and drip clean are working well together here is a pic of what im up to now . . . .sorry about the bad angle its tight in there and sorry about the bad light my camera sucks
 
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Hey all! Newbie here...had one crop. Was pretty good, but can be much better. Just doing Sour D and first stint at Colorado Cough. Using Coco as the soil. Using Old Age as the Nuts. They are doing well, however, I am getting some burning on all edges of the older leaves in the veg stage. Whats going on there? I have also just been watering with about one gallon of nut solution to the five gallon pots and have not been getting any runoff. I am seeing that you all like to see some runoff. What do you do with that? Let it sit or suck it out?
 
GreenSpoon

GreenSpoon

132
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these plants are 5 months old now, in 7 gallons, and i havent once flushed my medium at all

just feed to no runoff every day

however 3 days before i cut em up i will drench each plant with tap water for a hour or so, just rinse out any other insoluble nutriens
 
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DrFeelGood

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Hey all! Newbie here...had one crop. Was pretty good, but can be much better. Just doing Sour D and first stint at Colorado Cough. Using Coco as the soil. Using Old Age as the Nuts. They are doing well, however, I am getting some burning on all edges of the older leaves in the veg stage. Whats going on there? I have also just been watering with about one gallon of nut solution to the five gallon pots and have not been getting any runoff. I am seeing that you all like to see some runoff. What do you do with that? Let it sit or suck it out?


I have been desperately seeking a cut of the Colorado Cough from Fort Collins can you locate one per chance? I'm willing to pay or trade a cut of anything that I have to get it back...

Thanks,

Dr FG
 
los0420

los0420

102
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I am flushing in coco. My PH going in is 5.9-6.0. EC is .4-.45. When I checked what was draining out I was getting a PH of 7.2-7.4, and an EC of 2.5-2.8.

I know that the EC is draining, and going down(why it was so high I'm not sure..EC was never over 1.75, and I did a low level(ec of .4-.6 w/ ro water phed at 6.0) flush once every 2 weeks. With drip clean every other watering/feeding.), but I am conffusing about the PH levels. Should I be more concerned about it going in or coming out? Should I adjust the water/flush so that the PH levels coming out are in the 5.8-6.2 range(by lowering the ph to about 5.0. which has the draining water coming out at around 6.5-6.7)) or is it better to have the ph water going in being in the 6.0 range, and not dealing with the draining water's PH levels?
I have never checked my run off no point if they look healthy dont worry about it
 
los0420

los0420

102
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I don't use drip clean or barely any run off .I use canna coco and perlite I feed every time using Botanicare products and I have never had a problem over two years now ,you can find my medicine sitting top shelf at local dispensary s.Only worry about what your putting in to your plants. Most of the info on these forums come from people who read a lot, but don't grow a lot .
 
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