ph nightmare

[KGBudman]

Hello all, New here but not to gardening.Been a few years,but it's kinda like riding a bike(except for the memory part).
Set up a new Flow-N-Grow 12 days ago.First time with Hydroton.First F-UP,Not rinsing the hydroton well enough.
Using Botanicare Pro-Grow(organics)

Even though the Hydroton was not rinsed well enough,I can't even get my water/nutrient solution stable. It's municipal water supply. I let the water sit 24 hrs(ph 7.5,ppm110,added nutes(1.5 tsp/gal) to bring the ppm to 540,ph down to 5.25(a bit low).Mixed with pump at least an hour.Let sit 24 hrs,ph went to 5.5. Added a pump with hose to circulate in the can(water falling back into can for a good mix and O2.After 24 hrs ph is 6.2. WTF

12 days and doing 2nd res change due to CONSTANT PH RAISES!

Running just ph'd water last 12 hrs(trying to get shit outta my HYDROTON,and help my girls which are suffering from nute luck-out from the ph I believe.
I put 1.5 gals of just ph'd water in a bucket last night with a circ pump.I will be headed over to check out the ph after this post. I'm thinking that if the ph changes in that water,the problem is the water supply. If not,probably the nutes since the nute batch gained almost 1 full point just circulating in the barrel.

Oh yea,First planting day ph at 5.8,next day 6.7.SHIT ,beatdown from day 1.Continuosly adjusting down. Thats why the 2nd res change already.Some girls oookaaay,some not so much. Left my camera at the room,so I'll post some pics when I return.
Peace guys!

 

[justiceman]

Yo man the municipal tap contains i beleive either carbonates or bicarbonates of calcium, magnesium, and probably a few other elements. Those elements cause the PH of the water to be 7.5(basic). The elements in your nutrients are acidic so that way they all stay soluble when you dilute them in water. That's why the PH of your water lowers to 5.2 after adding the nutes.

Now their are a few different reasons for why the PH raises in your grow system.

*Aeration of the nutrient solution encourages microbial growth witch in turn raises PH dramatically(not necessarily a bad thing unless it's above 7)
*Healthy nutrient uptake from roots usually causes PH to rise as they lower the EC concentration of the solution.
*Carbonates/Bicarbonates raise PH and keep it their fairly well.

Try and keep that PH down with either phosphoric acid, or citric acid. I haven't used hydroton so I don't know about the merits of flushing it but I suppose it's possible that the residue is causing the PH to steadily rise.

Get some pictures up when you can as the plants health is most important and might give a few more hints.

 

[KGBudman]

Ok,here's some pics.
I put water in a barrel for 2 daysto evaporate chlorine.
ph'd it to 5.25
put about 1.5 gals in a bucket with a small pump for circ.
2 days later ph is 6.4

I'm not getting it.Unless the stuff in the city water just overides my ph down.(GH brand)

 

[woodsmaneh]

Don't sweat the changes to much, trying to keep it at say 5.8 and every time it moves you counter just makes things worse. Your plants can take a range of 5.5 to 6.7 without much issue. So slow down and try to keep it some where between the ditches 5.5 / 6.8. Now next time you clean the hydrotron use some H2o2 let soak for a day.

Your city water may use chlorine or chlorimines. Put your nose to a glass does it smell like chlorine? or just a mild smell like a pool? If it is strong you got chlorine and need to let the water sit for 48 hours to off gas properly in as large a surface as you can get. A pail is ideal. If you have chlorimines you need a carbon/charcoal filter. Britta will do.

Peace

Some good info ^^^^^^^^^justiceman

 

[mastacheeser]

u running benes?
seen alot of people having problems with hyrdozyme and ph flux
alot of pk boosters also cause a 24hr change in ph
another option is bad ph meter
if your probe is old or dried out it will give you very inaccurate and random readings
u have test strips?

 

[KGBudman]

u running benes?
seen alot of people having problems with hyrdozyme and ph flux
alot of pk boosters also cause a 24hr change in ph
another option is bad ph meter
if your probe is old or dried out it will give you very inaccurate and random readings
u have test strips?

Nothing but nutes and ph down.
New ph meter,calibrated befor use.

 

[convex]

How many containers? Container size? Rez size?
Is a Flow N Grow a production growing system or a style I am not familiar with?

 

[KGBudman]

looks like all my posts have to wait to be ok'd?

 

[KGBudman]

How many containers? Container size? Rez size?
Is a Flow N Grow a production growing system or a style I am not familiar with?

It is 15,4gallon buckets w/3 gal mesh pots and res is 55 gal.
It's similar to the CAP buckets
Room staying @ 72-75
res @ 66(did work up to 72 so moved the res out of room w/heater)

 

[KGBudman]

Don't sweat the changes to much, trying to keep it at say 5.8 and every time it moves you counter just makes things worse. Your plants can take a range of 5.5 to 6.7 without much issue. So slow down and try to keep it some where between the ditches 5.5 / 6.8. Now next time you clean the hydrotron use some H2o2 let soak for a day.

Your city water may use chlorine or chlorimines. Put your nose to a glass does it smell like chlorine? or just a mild smell like a pool? If it is strong you got chlorine and need to let the water sit for 48 hours to off gas properly in as large a surface as you can get. A pail is ideal. If you have chlorimines you need a carbon/charcoal filter. Britta will do.

Peace

Some good info ^^^^^^^^^justiceman

6.8 sounds a bit high to me.I ganerally shoot for 5.5-maybe 6.5
I do understand what u r saying about countering but,it is also important not to let it get out of control.
going from 5.5 one night-6.7 in 24 hours just sends me scrambling.
If I were to just go home and leave it at 6.7 ,where do you think it would be by the next night? My guess is, way to high for my girls liking.Even the 6.7 has screwed with them. I also think the Hydroton is a problem(never used it and did not know it had to be rinsed so well and soaked).I put some 5.5 ph'd water in a cup,filled 3/4 way with hydroton out of the pots. 15 minutes later it's over 6. 6.2 if I remember right.

 

[Seamaiden]

Justiceman hit you on the first go-round--you're using tap water and munis usually add carbonate/carbonaceous (not sure which term is correct, but think CaCO3/MgCO3, both are carbonates) minerals to prevent acidic erosion of pipes. What does this MEAN? It means that the water is likely very alkaline, and that is not (just) to describe pH, but its ability to resist pH shift. Water with high alkalinity can be measured and quantified, and the result is this situation is always pH drift upwards.

CO2/O2 saturation levels also affect pH, with higher CO2 levels bringing it downward. Folks who run planted aquariums use CO2 to increase plant growth and keep pH shifted downward.

Start with your water source, most of the problems will end there, in my humble opinion. I need to qualify all my answers on this subject by saying that I've never grown cannabis in a completely hydroponic manner, my experience with water comes from my experience with fish (20+ yrs in trade). If this kind of drift were happening in an aquarium, I'm pretty sure I'd be seeing a tank-ful of dead fish.

***Edit*** P.S. Woodsmaneh also gave you some good information here, though you can very easily dechlorinate/dechloraminate using sodium thiosulfate. 5lbs dry (try The Chemistry Store dot com) is a few dollars, and you use that to make a 1%-3% dilution, which you then use at a rate of approximately 5mls/gallon to do both jobs. Perfectly acceptable, IMO, and much, much cheaper than buying dechlor from a shop, or worse, Petco.

 

[KGBudman]

Justiceman hit you on the first go-round--you're using tap water and munis usually add carbonate/carbonaceous (not sure which term is correct, but think CaCO3/MgCO3, both are carbonates) minerals to prevent acidic erosion of pipes. What does this MEAN? It means that the water is likely very alkaline, and that is not (just) to describe pH, but its ability to resist pH shift. Water with high alkalinity can be measured and quantified, and the result is this situation is always pH drift upwards.

So far this in the conclusion I've come to. Especially after my test with just ph'd water in a bucket.
When at the hydro shop the other day,I inquired about RO filters. The guy led me to the Small boy and Tall boy. I go for the Tall boy. After getting it to the room and opening it all up,I se it is NOT RO. LOT"S of not very knowledgable people running these shops.

 

[KGBudman]

Now I need to figure my next move.Use the tall boy and get the upgraded filter for chloramines or return it and get the STEALTH 200 RO.What do the "GURU'S" here say?

P.S. Thanks sooo much for the replies guys.

 

[KGBudman]

Just spoke with the water dept.. They use chlorine not chloramines. Their web site says they do raise the ph so I'm assuming the carbs/bicarbs for maintaing ph is my problem. Thoughts on this?

 

[justiceman]

Well It's really up to you whether you want the stealth R/O or the tallboy. The tallboy is good because it doesn't waste water and it filters out sediment along with chlorine. The R/O does that plus it cleans the water of most minerals(brings ppm down to 0-10). The problem with R/O is it does not contain calcium, or magnesium so you will have to put those back in to R/O witch costs you more then using tap with cal mag in it. R/O is more controlled though and usually preferred especially for hydroponic applications. Tap water can vary in mineral content throughout the year so that means inconsistent water quality.

I'm definitely thinking the carbonates are raising the ph. Just don't let that PH rise above 6.8. Also what is the size of your res and how much water per plant do you need? If you res isn't big the plants might be sucking up tons of nutes causing a PH shift. Bigger reservoirs usually have less PH drift over time.

It is 15,4gallon buckets w/3 gal mesh pots and res is 55 gal.
It's similar to the CAP buckets
Room staying @ 72-75

How much solution sits in each bucket? about 2 gallons? So when the solution is circulating does that mean your res is down to 25gal? or is it 55gal with 2 gal of solution in each bucket?

What kind of PH down are you using?

According to the pictures the plants don't seem to be doing anything crazy nor are they extremely deficient. I'd keep doing what your doing and see how they look in a week. In my opinion they look pretty healthy at the moment. Mind you though I don't have any hands on exp with water culture. I only know what I have read about it.

 

[KGBudman]

Well It's really up to you whether you want the stealth R/O or the tallboy. The tallboy is good because it doesn't waste water and it filters out sediment along with chlorine. The R/O does that plus it cleans the water of most minerals(brings ppm down to 0-10). The problem with R/O is it does not contain calcium, or magnesium so you will have to put those back in to R/O witch costs you more then using tap with cal mag in it. R/O is more controlled though and usually preferred especially for hydroponic applications. Tap water can vary in mineral content throughout the year so that means inconsistent water quality.

I'm definitely thinking the carbonates are raising the ph. Just don't let that PH rise above 6.8. Also what is the size of your res and how much water per plant do you need? If you res isn't big the plants might be sucking up tons of nutes causing a PH shift. Bigger reservoirs usually have less PH drift over time.

What kind of PH down are you using?

According to the pictures the plants don't seem to be doing anything crazy nor are they extremely deficient. I'd keep doing what your doing and see how they look in a week. In my opinion they look pretty healthy at the moment.

The res is 55 gals and it uses less then 1/2 to flood the 15 sites.
They're not sucking tons uf nutes YET according to my ppm meter.
Ph just moving really fast. new mix last night at 5.4,this am 5.9.
that's good to go for now but,will check again tonight.I already know what's gonna happen because nothing has changed in the "experiment" other than i'm using a different ph down than I started with. Now I'm using GH brand and that's what I used for the water in the bucket test.

The Tall boy won't remove those carbonates will it? Will the Stealth RO?
Not sure I'm seeing the same thing as you cause they don't look 100% to me.

 

[mastacheeser]

are you letting your nutes mix before your adding them to your feeding rez?
alot of nutes will react for the first 24-48 hrs
techaflora is the one ive seen alot of complaits about

 

[mastacheeser]

im no pro one this stuff, seamaiden will prob have a better answer for ya, but anything that is actually a RO filter should take everything out. i use the hydrologic stealth and love the hell outa it

 

[justiceman]

No the tallboy won't remove the carbonates. The R/O will remove them.

Well If your trying to go 100% then I would definitely get a R/O system. I have a hydrologic stealth R/O 200 and it works great for me. Cheaper systems are also to be had off of ebay.

If you get the R/O system I would make sure to get a calmag supplement along with it for the plants.

 

[KGBudman]

are you letting your nutes mix before your adding them to your feeding rez?
alot of nutes will react for the first 24-48 hrs
techaflora is the one ive seen alot of complaits about

Not really letting the solution sit before using. This time I had 40 gals pre-mixed for several days.That ph climbed about a point as well.I had to add 15 more gals of water and some nutes/ph down to fill the res.