PH or Nutes?

[Reebs]

Hello Farmers,

in the past i've been really good at diagnosing problems with my plants but i'm a little confused right now.
everything i have in veg right now is showing signs of sulfur deff. and maybe even Cal/Mg deff.

Basically i have a mixture of stuff, 2 strains i've ran before and 4 new ones, everything looks the same. all plants are rooted cuts with a good root structure before transplanting to veg. usually at this point i have no problems with the first nute load but like i said it's confusing me right now.

I used to use the dropper PH test kit with no problems for about 2 years and just recently got a hanna PH pen. i've calibrated it like 4 times in the month i've had it with 7.0 standard soulution. when i was using the dropper test kit, i would get the water to be "yellow" or 6.0 as the bottle says with about half the amount of PH down that i'm using now with the pen and PHing to 5.8-6.0.

i'll have some pictures below but my question is does this look more like a PH inbalance problem? too much nutes? nute lockout? what happens when u have PH too high? what happens when you have PH too low?

i feel a bit noobish with this but i never really run into problems anymore with my set feeding schedule that i've dialed in over 3 years. which is leading me to believe that the new pen is whats messing me up, like i don't trust this thing.

also notice the leaf curl.. i always thought this was a sign that there was NOT enough light, i moved the light a little closer and it seemed to help a little but i'm guessing this might also have something to do with whatever else is wrong.

just a quick run down of the grow,

- 2x4 flood tray
- 25 gal res
- 6-8'' pots filled with hydroton
- Botanicare PBP gro, karma, aquasheild, cal mag +, pro-tekt silica, Hygrozyme, Aqua flakes A&B and superthrive when needed

- 4x8 Tent
- 400Watt HPS to MH conversion Bulb
- Flooded 15 mins every 2 hours
- i aim for 5.8-6.0 but i've been using both the pen and the dropper test kit so ph has been anywhere from 6.3-6.7

let me know if anyone needs any other info that i left out.

thanks!

 

[Classic Remix]

nutes. ph may be a factor but it doesnt look like the problem.... unless its locking stuff out...

what are you feeding it??? and where the hell is the N... its been crying for some for a by it looks like to me....

i dont do hydro or soiless but im pretty sure you should be shooting for the 5 range not 6 as in soil..... someone may need to correct me though.

 

[Reebs]

currently feeding whats listed above, and it's half strength from my normal feed. usually in hydro 5.8-6.0 is what the Horticulture bible says and it's always been fine.

i'm starting to think its most likely the PH was too high and locking out nutes. they deff have enough N-P-K.

still looking for some more input. thanks Classic.

 

[Reebs]

oh i forgot to add that the worst of it is in the pics above and those were all cuts from an all organic soil garden. so maybe the switch to hydro is just a shock?

 

[Seamaiden]

Reebs, I always use the 2-point calibration method, I feel that's very important. This looks like a simple N- to me, so I'm curious about the rates of growth compared to previous runs.

Nutrients do get locked out when pH is too consistently too far outside parameters. You don't discuss the source water--if that's changed, that can cause problems, including lock-outs. First you need to ascertain for certain how well that new meter is operating, and IMO you should get the 4.02 solution and do the full 2-point calibration to ensure accuracy. You can double-check with your colorimetric drops, too, if they've been serving you well in the past.

Have you changed lights recently, too? I've achieved some great bleaching when putting a 600W bulb onto a mover, a bulb that had already been through one run. It took me a while to get it figured out, but in combination with insufficient food you can essentially overdrive photosynthesis beyond the point that the whole plant can keep up. So, as CR says, N would be good here. Just make certain of your numbers, accuracy.

 

[Reebs]

Reebs, I always use the 2-point calibration method, I feel that's very important. This looks like a simple N- to me, so I'm curious about the rates of growth compared to previous runs.

Nutrients do get locked out when pH is too consistently too far outside parameters. You don't discuss the source water--if that's changed, that can cause problems, including lock-outs. First you need to ascertain for certain how well that new meter is operating, and IMO you should get the 4.02 solution and do the full 2-point calibration to ensure accuracy. You can double-check with your colorimetric drops, too, if they've been serving you well in the past.

Have you changed lights recently, too? I've achieved some great bleaching when putting a 600W bulb onto a mover, a bulb that had already been through one run. It took me a while to get it figured out, but in combination with insufficient food you can essentially overdrive photosynthesis beyond the point that the whole plant can keep up. So, as CR says, N would be good here. Just make certain of your numbers, accuracy.

first off, thank you dude!

second, the water situation has always been low ppm well water here, for the new cuts i'm not sure but i'm assuming tap water from the city which is also low ppm.

the light is the same one i've been using for maybe 6-7 months, its just a 400watt HPS to MH conversion bulb.

i've been thinking myself that it sure does look like they need more N or more nutes in general, but at the same time i'm affraid to over do it on the nutes and set me back even more. i'm starting to lean more towards the PH being out of whack. i've since recalibrated following the directions that came with it to the T and i've been PHing to 5.8-5.9. my cherynobly and other in house stuff seems to be looking better so far but my new stuff might be getting better or maybe nothing, i'm not sure, i sure do feel like the leafs should be sticking up more or at least more straight rather than curled and almost wilting like it seems they are, those pics are from this morning so they pretty much look the same.

in anyones honest suggestion, what should i do here? flush with balanced water with the dropper set for a few days and then continue regular nutes? add more base nutes for the N and balance out water? just balance the current water and leave it until i see signs of improvement?

thanks again guys!

 

[Reebs]

oh and i forgot to mention the rates of growth compared to previous runs... honestly in my tray i have 5 bohdi tester seeds that are doing great and have explosive growth, the 5 cherynobly's that seem to be growing %50 from previous, the new ones have only been in the tray since thursday so hard to say. in general i would say growth has somewhat slowed up for everything EXCEPT the bohdi testers which just have explosive growth

 

[squiggly]

Nitrogen, almost no question there.

Do a soil pH test please and post the results here.

 

[Seamaiden]

Squigs, how do you do a soil pH test with hydroton?

Reebs, it's sis to you! I would check the source water, especially if it's municipal. Water quality parameters can change all the time and can cause issues where none existed previously. Then, I would give them more N.

What you're asking about leaf position, etc, I typically associate with vapor pressure deficit being out of good ranges. Usually that means bringing RH up, but you're saying it's getting as high as 70% and IME they love RH in that range.

 

[woodsmaneh]

I'm with squiggly N is my opinion.

Nitrogen Deficiencies
Plants will exhibit lack of vigor, slow growth and will be weak and stunted. Quality and yield will be significantly reduced. Older leaves become yellow (chlorotic) from lack of chlorophyll. Deficient plants will exhibit uniform light green to yellow on older leaves, these leaves may die and drop. Leaf margins will not curled up noticeably. Chlorosis will eventually spread throughout the plant. Stems, petioles and lower leaf surfaces may turn purple.

 

[Reebs]

Awesome, sorry seamaiden.

I added More PBP grow and some superthrive yesterday so hopefully that helped a little and now I'm gonna run to the house and change that res with my normal nutes. Thanks again and that chart is baller!

 

[Seamaiden]

Drop the Superthrive.

 

[Reebs]

Drop the Superthrive.

whys that? i actually just bought this little $7 bottle of superthrive because i've seen it straight up bring some troubled plants back to life. i was honestly going to use it only for like a situation like this where i want to try and minimize any stress or setbacks this far that will only put me even further behind.

i just got to the house and everything is looking better, everything is reaching for the light except 2 smaller ones. i'd say the PH being out of whack was causing nute lock out, i was at one point getting almost every symptom on that chart, but now everything is getting green again and showing new growth. hopefully i've got everything back in check. i hate it when i have problems like this, makes me feel like a noob

thanks again guys, and Gal!

 

[Seamaiden]

I feel it can add to stress, have never seen Superthrive itself bring plants back. I have seen mycos/beneficials bring plants back. But, that's just my opinion, not a *fact*. If it works well in your regimen, then continue to use it.

 

[squiggly]

Squigs, how do you do a soil pH test with hydroton?

Reebs, it's sis to you! I would check the source water, especially if it's municipal. Water quality parameters can change all the time and can cause issues where none existed previously. Then, I would give them more N.

What you're asking about leaf position, etc, I typically associate with vapor pressure deficit being out of good ranges. Usually that means bringing RH up, but you're saying it's getting as high as 70% and IME they love RH in that range.

I didn't see it was in hydroton, my bad.

Perhaps a runoff test? Definitely looks like some lockout going on.

 

[Reebs]

ya i think i've managed to get everything back under control, the PH swing was my problem i think, causing lock out.

 

[dirtlavert]

DId you end up going back to the test strips for ph? I am curious because I have been having the same problem and also use a hanna meter. One of my friends told me he used to use one but no longer does because they aren't accurate

 

[Reebs]

i ended up spending the $5 on the 4.0 test solution and did the 2 point test like mentioned above by Seamaiden. i came to the conclusion that with the dropper test kit i was probably getting the water to 6.3ish and usually my plants didn't mind, but now that i'm all calibrated up, i've had noticeable signs of improvement.

 

[Seamaiden]

Excellent to read, Reebs. :)

 

[dirtlavert]

Got a bluelab guardian and turns out my hanna pen was off by on ph and ec...my ec was .4 higher than what it really is and my ph was reading 5.5 and was really at 4.7. Weird thing is when i put the hanna in both the 4.01 and 7 its spot on but when in the undercurrent its off. No wonder everything slowed to a crawl this week.