Plants got a little unwieldy vegging too long. How much to top?

[Mandelbr0t]

Hey everyone, this is my first grow and I grabbed clones that were already at about ~2+ weeks old. I had to iron out some other setup issues and environmental control issues in the flower rooms that I didn't think were going to be an issue/didn't realize would be an issue until the last minute. So I've had these big babies getting fed Athena Pro @ 3.0 EC, 5.7 pH, and a .9 - 1.0 VPD for a little over 2 weeks now (so maybe vegging over a month total now) and they seem to be doing pretty good. The problem is they are all packed extremely close together now that they have grown up, and to give them more space I need to move them into another room for flower. Below is a picture of what the Ice Cream Cake's look like. They are roughly about 32" tall, and my Apple Fritter's may be closer to 3' tall. You can see how they've started kind of stretching up since they have no room to grow outwards now due to have close the plants are together now from vegging so long.

They are under Phantom PhotoBIO 640w LED's right now, at about a 700 PPFD. They will be under the same PhotoBIO's in one room, as well as Gavita DE 1000's in the other room, but the goal will obviously be to keep the PPFD the same in both flower rooms (above what it's currently at.) Since Gavita recommends a minimum of 3' from the light to the top of the canopy, I need to do some topping (I assume) to get them down to the correct height. My friend says they will at least double, if not triple, in height once flipped to flower.

The very bottom of my trays are 2' from the floor, and from the bottom of the trays to the lights is a little over 6'. My ceilings are 9'4" tall and the lights are already up as much as they can go. I'm going to be using 3 gallon fabric pots, currently they are in 1 gallons for veg, and metaphorically busting at the seams. The plants are at 32" - 36" tall already (measured from the top of the coco in the pot to the top of the plant), so how much should I be cutting off here, or what should I be doing? This wasn't something I accounted for ahead of time, since I thought it would be get the clones, let them grow a week or so, then flip them over. Unforeseen circumstances did not allow me to do that.

The strains I'm running are:

Apple Fritter
Ice Cream Cake
OG Kush
Starkiller OG
Tropicana Cherry

The OG Kush is pretty short and squat and hasn't gotten super tall like the rest, so they are probably ok. Everything else has grown up pretty good. Will it be safe to top them as much as I might need to this late in veg? If so, how long should I wait after topping before flipping into flower? I appreciate any help or guidance!

 

[Gmix]

I wouldn’t top it now I’d do some lst and tie it down that will make it more bushy

It’s looks quite bendy you should be able to tie the top down quite a bit without breaking anything.

Tie the side stalks as well to the top of the pot.

Put holes in the top of the pot so you can tie it or use heavy duty tape if you have to alought even gorilla tape can let the string or whatever you use to tie it down slip

Rotate the side she’s tied down on and let it go untied In between rotating that will strengthen the stalk up and help her bear heavy fruiting

Tied down that will be a nice productive plant

 

[Harpua88]

Hey everyone, this is my first grow and I grabbed clones that were already at about ~2+ weeks old. I had to iron out some other setup issues and environmental control issues in the flower rooms that I didn't think were going to be an issue/didn't realize would be an issue until the last minute. So I've had these big babies getting fed Athena Pro @ 3.0 EC, 5.7 pH, and a .9 - 1.0 VPD for a little over 2 weeks now (so maybe vegging over a month total now) and they seem to be doing pretty good. The problem is they are all packed extremely close together now that they have grown up, and to give them more space I need to move them into another room for flower. Below is a picture of what the Ice Cream Cake's look like. They are roughly about 32" tall, and my Apple Fritter's may be closer to 3' tall. You can see how they've started kind of stretching up since they have no room to grow outwards now due to have close the plants are together now from vegging so long.

They are under Phantom PhotoBIO 640w LED's right now, at about a 700 PPFD. They will be under the same PhotoBIO's in one room, as well as Gavita DE 1000's in the other room, but the goal will obviously be to keep the PPFD the same in both flower rooms (above what it's currently at.) Since Gavita recommends a minimum of 3' from the light to the top of the canopy, I need to do some topping (I assume) to get them down to the correct height. My friend says they will at least double, if not triple, in height once flipped to flower.

The very bottom of my trays are 2' from the floor, and from the bottom of the trays to the lights is a little over 6'. My ceilings are 9'4" tall and the lights are already up as much as they can go. I'm going to be using 3 gallon fabric pots, currently they are in 1 gallons for veg, and metaphorically busting at the seams. The plants are at 32" - 36" tall already (measured from the top of the coco in the pot to the top of the plant), so how much should I be cutting off here, or what should I be doing? This wasn't something I accounted for ahead of time, since I thought it would be get the clones, let them grow a week or so, then flip them over. Unforeseen circumstances did not allow me to do that.

The strains I'm running are:

Apple Fritter
Ice Cream Cake
OG Kush
Starkiller OG
Tropicana Cherry

The OG Kush is pretty short and squat and hasn't gotten super tall like the rest, so they are probably ok. Everything else has grown up pretty good. Will it be safe to top them as much as I might need to this late in veg? If so, how long should I wait after topping before flipping into flower? I appreciate any help or guidance!

If you're looking to flower soon I wouldn't top. I would tie them down/horizontal and bend/train the branches with clips. Once you do that you can lower your light down a bit closer to them, they look a little stretched for the veg cycle......but quite healthy. I assume your light is on the max setting?

If you do want to top I would then add more veg days (and still drop the light down) so they could have the time for new growrh/branches to fill in.

I dig the fact that your ceiling is so high. It can give you the verticle space to let plants get taller if that's what you want.

 

[Mandelbr0t]

If you're looking to flower soon I wouldn't top. I would tie them down/horizontal and bend/train the branches with clips. Once you do that you can lower your light down a bit closer to them, they look a little stretched for the veg cycle......but quite healthy. I assume your light is on the max setting?

If you do want to top I would then add more veg days (and still drop the light down) so they could have the time for new growrh/branches to fill in.

I dig the fact that your ceiling is so high. It can give you the verticle space to let plants get taller if that's what you want.

I wouldn’t top it now I’d do some lst and tie it down that will make it more bushy

It’s looks quite bendy you should be able to tie the top down quite a bit without breaking anything.

Tie the side stalks as well to the top of the pot.

Put holes in the top of the pot so you can tie it or use heavy duty tape if you have to alought even gorilla tape can let the string or whatever you use to tie it down slip

Rotate the side she’s tied down on and let it go untied In between rotating that will strengthen the stalk up and help her bear heavy fruiting

Tied down that will be a nice productive plant

Do you guys recommend trellising still if I do the LST?

@Harpua my lights aren't on the max setting, I have the DLI set to 700ppfd and it is staying pretty close to that range. These things are f'ing huge now because they are still in veg. I've had further technical difficulties (had to replace my StealthRO 300 with a EvolutionRO 1000) because they are using up so much water now that between pre-charging/soaking the 3 gallon pots (in flower room) and feeding the 1 gallons each day, my StealthRO was only producing 236 gallons a day and that was running it 24 hours straight. I was concerned about the stress on my old well pump, so I just upped the system so I won't have to worry about it going forward.

Are there any little LST clips you guys recommend, or do you think I would be fine manually bending and tying down? I appreciate the responses and I apologize for the delay in replying, I don't get on here every day but I will check back daily over the next few days.

 

[Harpua88]

Do you guys recommend trellising still if I do the LST?

@Harpua my lights aren't on the max setting, I have the DLI set to 700ppfd and it is staying pretty close to that range. These things are f'ing huge now because they are still in veg. I've had further technical difficulties (had to replace my StealthRO 300 with a EvolutionRO 1000) because they are using up so much water now that between pre-charging/soaking the 3 gallon pots (in flower room) and feeding the 1 gallons each day, my StealthRO was only producing 236 gallons a day and that was running it 24 hours straight. I was concerned about the stress on my old well pump, so I just upped the system so I won't have to worry about it going forward.

Are there any little LST clips you guys recommend, or do you think I would be fine manually bending and tying down? I appreciate the responses and I apologize for the delay in replying, I don't get on here every day but I will check back daily over the next few days.

I've seen nothing but good things from SOG, mostly SCROG .....great yields, efficient, uniformity, many tops per sqft.....I haven't seen as much trellising, but it comes down to how you build it, apply it, work it......I'm sure it's also a good thing to do. You'll find people here who do it.

I don't. I go whole plant, but only because I want to. I'll lst.....tie down, clip/bend. I use soil, seeds, and different varieties in the same grow. I'm not going for max yield/min time. So there are a few really great growers here that can guide you far better, all I can say is, go for it and I know you'll be happy working with people here......

As far as your light, what power setting is it on (20%?, 50%?.....) and how high is it hung above the plants? Then you can get an idea of when you want to flip to flower. You know how high your ceiling is, I don't know if your light is hung all the way at the top of the ceiling, but if you do some rough measurements, figure your plants will about double in size when finished, keeping the final tops a good 2ft from the light........then work your way backwards abd get an idea if when you're ready to start flowering. Then you can do whatever training, a little pruning, and get ready for that day.

 

[Bdubs]

The height of the light is what will cause the stretch in veg. The plant wants to reach a specific distance to the light, depending on the light intensity and type of light used. Once it reaches that spot she stops trying to grow up and will work everything else. To reduce upward growth, lower the lights closer but don’t burn or overheat them. The length of veg is going to determine the amount of stretch when you trigger flower, the stretch phase. If you want more yield and less height, because from the looks of it, that girl will get tall on you, do a Simple LST or 90 degree bend on the main stem. Thai way when you push flower, you don’t have 5-6’ plant on your hands. Also, your nodes are going to be far spread with that much veg stretch. Lower lights, 90 degree LST. Veg however long you want. Get those side stems to start popping up some good growth. Raise the lights to maintain a specific distance to assist in stacking and managing the node group distances. That will help you get some more yield and to slow that upward momentum.

 

[Bdubs]

When you LST 90 degree, she will focus on strengthening the stem. Other growth will slow a bit as it tries to counter the stem stress. This will make it stronger in the end to hold the extra weight of added yield later.

 

[Mandelbr0t]

Ok everyone, so my problem is worse than I thought. For the first time today, the other room is ready for everything to be flipped and so I started moving the plants over. Once I started getting through to the middle of the tables in veg, some of the plants are essentially all stretch and just look like shit to be honest. They were so top heavy and relying on the plants next to them to stay upright, that when we moved the first row of plants, 2 of the ones in the next row bent over and snapped at the base, complete loss. If I was moving them outside it may not be the end of the world, but due to my height constraints and the way they stretched so much, it seems to be a problem. It doesn't seem like I would have enough space on the tables if I bent them over, since they are already so big (4' + tall on many of them). Gavita DE's need 3' minimum from top of canopy to the light, and many of these plants only have a foot or less from the top of canopy to the light. I had planned on 18 sites per 4x8 table.

I realize I may have fucked everything up from having to wait so long (i.e. solving so many unexpected problems in flower room and having an almost 2 month veg period). Am I going to have to take clones and start over? Do y'all think I would still have the space to bend them over and put trellis/netting/scrog up? All the Ice Cream Cakes are monsters (in height) and are 12-16" from the lights. Some of the other strains are roughly 3' from the lights, but they are not in flower yet and would still be shooting up.

 

[Trash_2002]

It's me or every grow I see with Athena nutrients have this same characteristics of long internodal distances and lanky stretched plants?
it's just an observation, since many started using it recently i see this trend.
Will observe from now on also if everyone using it is going high density grows aswell but I remember at least some.that weren't and had this characteristics too.

 

[Trash_2002]

Btw those vegged fully under Gavitas 1000w DE's?

 

[Mandelbr0t]

It's me or every grow I see with Athena nutrients have this same characteristics of long internodal distances and lanky stretched plants?
it's just an observation, since many started using it recently i see this trend.
Will observe from now on also if everyone using it is going high density grows aswell but I remember at least some.that weren't and had this characteristics too.

The first week or two they weren't stretching so bad. As time went on though, they started getting out of control. To help visualize it better, there were (72) 1 gallon pots on a tray, and were sitting there like that in more or less perfect environmental conditions and feeding schedules for about a month and a half. The only place they had to go was straight up and here I am.

 

[Mandelbr0t]

Btw those vegged fully under Gavitas 1000w DE's?

No in veg they were under Phantom PhotoBIO MX 680's @ 65% intensity or about 675-700 PAR. Some of them will continue in there in flower, the rest go into other flower room.

 

[Trash_2002]

No in veg they were under Phantom PhotoBIO MX 680's @ 65% intensity or about 675-700 PAR. Some of them will continue in there in flower, the rest go into other flower room.

You could flower them with proper training under a net and agressive topping of the really big ones, not gonna be a perfect solution, but it is what it is for this run.
Time is money.
For next cycle you have the means for a better vegging plan for sure ;-)

 

[Mandelbr0t]

You could flower them with proper training under a net and agressive topping of the really big ones, not gonna be a perfect solution, but it is what it is for this run.
Time is money.
For next cycle you have the means for a better vegging plan for sure ;-)

How many nodes need to be left after topping to still get a decent yield? Some of the tall ones are stretched so much that there aren't a lot of bottom nodes left that are doing that good because they were almost completely shielded from the canopy above. My friend thinks I should just take clones and start over, but he also has severe baseline anxiety to begin with, so he tends to overreact sometimes. In this case he may or may not be right, I don't know to be honest.

EDIT: And yeah, I had a decent plan for veg this time, problem is I couldn't flip to flower because the other room had unexpected, numerous technical difficulties. I also had to completely switch out my StealthRO-300 for a EvolutionRO that does ~1400 gallons per day because the 300 wasn't going to be able to keep up. That took about a week to obtain the equipment, install it, etc. Before that it was just numerous other issues that won't be a problem in the future, but again here I am

 

[Trash_2002]

How many nodes need to be left after topping to still get a decent yield? Some of the tall ones are stretched so much that there aren't a lot of bottom nodes left that are doing that good because they were almost completely shielded from the canopy above. My friend thinks I should just take clones and start over, but he also has severe baseline anxiety to begin with, so he tends to overreact sometimes. In this case he may or may not be right, I don't know to be honest.

Depends on the density you have to flower, but 6-12 tops should be enough in most cases.

It's a thing of time and money, are you ok to throw in the garbage 2 months veg worth of light and maintenance?

If yes you could clone them and make a good planned veg with proper density.

Me I would flower what I got while I veg what I need ;-), this way you cut some.of.the losses tho

 

[Trash_2002]

But another thing is, you want/need to veg them for two months? In that density isn't possible as you already experienced, you could control better veg speed with much lower watts and lower temperature if you need to veg for two months and they don't finish veg as giant monsters that will not fit your flower room after stretch.

 

[Mandelbr0t]

But another thing is, you want/need to veg them for two months? In that density isn't possible as you already experienced, you could control better veg speed with much lower watts and lower temperature if you need to veg for two months and they don't finish veg as giant monsters that will not fit your flower room after stretch.

Oh no, I absolutely did not want or need to veg them for 2 months. I thought everything was ready to go in my flower room, so I bought the clones and started, but it was just one setback after another and I only finally got it all ironed out. I didn't want to veg longer than 3 weeks to a month

 

[Trash_2002]

I would Transplant, train under the net, top the tallest needed ones, 1 week more of veg is plenty to recover than flip to flower.

 

[Harpua88]

Ok everyone, so my problem is worse than I thought. For the first time today, the other room is ready for everything to be flipped and so I started moving the plants over. Once I started getting through to the middle of the tables in veg, some of the plants are essentially all stretch and just look like shit to be honest. They were so top heavy and relying on the plants next to them to stay upright, that when we moved the first row of plants, 2 of the ones in the next row bent over and snapped at the base, complete loss. If I was moving them outside it may not be the end of the world, but due to my height constraints and the way they stretched so much, it seems to be a problem. It doesn't seem like I would have enough space on the tables if I bent them over, since they are already so big (4' + tall on many of them). Gavita DE's need 3' minimum from top of canopy to the light, and many of these plants only have a foot or less from the top of canopy to the light. I had planned on 18 sites per 4x8 table.

I realize I may have fucked everything up from having to wait so long (i.e. solving so many unexpected problems in flower room and having an almost 2 month veg period). Am I going to have to take clones and start over? Do y'all think I would still have the space to bend them over and put trellis/netting/scrog up? All the Ice Cream Cakes are monsters (in height) and are 12-16" from the lights. Some of the other strains are roughly 3' from the lights, but they are not in flower yet and would still be shooting up.

You have a light(s)/coverage issue. This whole room, whatever the square fottage is, but (what looks like) one small light way up there. However you try to salvage a harvest out of this, you need to readdress your space so that you have a light or bank of lights right over a canopy, delivering the kind of straight down light power the plants in that space require. As a result you have plants that are lanky, reaching, growing weak, easily breakable stems. You'll probably spend more time and effort and electricity than the benefits of any potential very small harvest.

There's nothing "bad" or "wrong" about anything, there's just what's working or not working. And when somethung isn't working it's an opportunity to hit the reset button and get to what will work. I would get a notebook and pen, and while working on cleaning up and emptying and prepping your space, start redesigning from scratch a really good grow room. And that means starting with "I have an A' x B' room, and will need this kind of light(s)".

We can all help you get there, but it has to be your vision of what you want. And before you rock 2 rooms, get 1 room done right, your main room. Then........once you have everything in order, then room #2. What's great is that it looks like you're an excellent builder......far better than I am. You built a fantastic space, you have skills, I can see that in your pictures. A lot of your attention went towards tables, and your watering system. Ultimately you can get as technical/complicated as you want. But you can lose the basics in the complicated.......basic doesn't mean lower end results.......after all, what we're doing is giving our plants exactly what they needed to thrive 20yrs ago, 100 yrs ago, and 1000 yrs ago. That hasn't changed. Space, a good environment, good soil or whatever will give the plants what they need from the stem down just as much as from the stem up.......good, strong light delivered efficiently and effectively, delivering energy to your full space......good water, and nutrients (fundamental before supplemental). Check all the basic boxes. Other than strong, modern-day full spectrum light(s), the rest is as old and low tech as can be.

 

[Xhale]

Depends on the density you have to flower, but 6-12 tops should be enough in most cases.
...
If yes you could clone them and make a good planned veg with proper density.
Me I would flower what I got while I veg what I need ;-), this way you cut some.of.the losses tho

I wholly agree with all points quoted here. +1