please some electric help

[Underground]

Shit, forgot to add. Many flourescents require a grounded case in order to fire properly. So read specs carefully.

 

[Underground]

And also forgive me if I sound like a dick. I'm drunk, stoned and tired. And also that surge detector is a transient voltage surge suppressor. But they do come in receptacles similar to a gfci receptacle.

 

[lazarus718]

You guys are both touched.
A) A GFCI doesn't detect spikes. It has a current transformer on the hot and neutral. If there is a difference it opens the circuit. It does this because the only way to get a difference is if there is a short to ground. Hence the name ground fault interrupter. Yes they can trip on heavy motor starts because it is an inductive load which creates inductive reactance current.

B) Yes you can put 3 wire fuckin outlets on the load side of a GFCI. In fact, that's the only way you can. And you have to label them "No equipment ground" I don't remember where it is. 250 somewhere I'm sure, look it up.

Man, this year old thread is getting lit up tonight!!!

Okay A) There is no such thing as a "current transformer" in a GFCI. It does detect spikes like a circuit breaker detects spikes. Not talking about voltage here, I said a current "spike". The device will trip once it detects a 6 mA or higher change in current, that change can occur between here and Pluto (which is no longer a planet) it doesn't care if it shorted to ground or not, it doesn't know what the Earth is. That's what I meant by spike. It does not need the ground to perform this check as it is only concerned with the current fluctuation between the hot and neutral (a.k.a. ground-ED) line. Current should never flow on your ground-ING line (the green one) unless you just lost the neutral. Motor start-up = AGREED.

B)Article 250 is HUGE. That's the grounding and bonding article and I would love for you to narrow that one down for me. If your devices were grounded down the load side of the GFCI and the GFCI was not grounded properly, the excess current would flow back through your HEART if it didn't have a path of less resistance to follow. It takes 100 mA to put your heart into defibrilation, the typical household circuit is 15 A. That is over a thousand times more than what your body can handle under certain conditions. LESSON: Don't f*ck with your outlets if you don't know what you are doing.

NEC '08, Article 250.110: "Exposed non-current-carrying metal parts (i.e. your HID lights) of fixed equipment likely to become energized shall be (no choice here) connected to the equipment grounding conductor...(1) Where within 2.5m vetically or 1.5m horizontally of ground or grounded metal objects and subject to contact by persons (2) Where located in a wet or damp location (every grow room) and not isolated (3) Where in electrical contact with metal (every grow room)...etc.

Definition of "equipment grounding conductor":
Article 100: "The conductive path installed to connect normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both"

Definition of "grounding conductor":
Article 100: "A conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode or electrodes."

Definition of "grounding electrode":
Pay attention to this one PLEASE, "A conducting object through which a DIRECT connection to earth is established."

If you don't have that connection, you don't have a ground. I don't care if you have 2 prongs, 3 prongs, 8 prongs...it is not grounded bro. Your BODY will be its ground.

 

[Underground]

Yes there is. That's how the GFCI measures the difference in current flow between the hot and neutral. Otherwise it would trip every time you plugged something in. This isn't an arc fault or a tvss, it's a gfci.
A breaker does not detect "spikes" either. It either trips magnetically (faulted) or thermally (overloaded)

Yes you are allowed to install a gfci in order to install 3 wire receps on a 120 volt circuit. I never said it grounds them. I said that you are allowed to do it and that you must mark them "no equipment ground"

And I believe I also said that some lighting requires a grounded case in order to fire properly.

Man, this year old thread is getting lit up tonight!!!

Okay A) There is no such thing as a "current transformer" in a GFCI. It does detect spikes like a circuit breaker detects spikes. Not talking about voltage here, I said a current "spike". The device will trip once it detects a 6 mA or higher change in current, that change can occur between here and Pluto (which is no longer a planet) it doesn't care if it shorted to ground or not, it doesn't know what the Earth is. That's what I meant by spike. It does not need the ground to perform this check as it is only concerned with the current fluctuation between the hot and neutral (a.k.a. ground-ED) line. Current should never flow on your ground-ING line (the green one) unless you just lost the neutral. Motor start-up = AGREED.

B)Article 250 is HUGE. That's the grounding and bonding article and I would love for you to narrow that one down for me. If your devices were grounded down the load side of the GFCI and the GFCI was not grounded properly, the excess current would flow back through your HEART if it didn't have a path of less resistance to follow. It takes 100 mA to put your heart into defibrilation, the typical household circuit is 15 A. That is over a thousand times more than what your body can handle under certain conditions. LESSON: Don't f*ck with your outlets if you don't know what you are doing.

NEC '08, Article 250.110: "Exposed non-current-carrying metal parts (i.e. your HID lights) of fixed equipment likely to become energized shall be (no choice here) connected to the equipment grounding conductor...(1) Where within 2.5m vetically or 1.5m horizontally of ground or grounded metal objects and subject to contact by persons (2) Where located in a wet or damp location (every grow room) and not isolated (3) Where in electrical contact with metal (every grow room)...etc.

Definition of "equipment grounding conductor":
Article 100: "The conductive path installed to connect normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both"

Definition of "grounding conductor":
Article 100: "A conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode or electrodes."

Definition of "grounding electrode":
Pay attention to this one PLEASE, "A conducting object through which a DIRECT connection to earth is established."

If you don't have that connection, you don't have a ground. I don't care if you have 2 prongs, 3 prongs, 8 prongs...it is not grounded bro. Your BODY will be its ground.

 

[Underground]

OK I'm gonna cheat. Here's a link. Article numbers won't coincide with current ones, but I'm sure you can look them up. http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_replacing_wire_ungrounded/

And as far as current transformers in GFCI devices, google it. You won't find much information, but you will find sources of the current transformers.

PS how do you suggest the device detects current differences? It would actually be pretty easy to build one if you wanted. Google voltage compare integrated circuits and find out which semi conductor you want to use. Make sure the CTs you get don't put out too much current for your IC chip.

PPS if you like playing with that sort of shit you can also make your own repeat cycle timer with a IC 555 chip, resistors, capacitor and variable resistors.

And that's about as much effort as you're gonna get out of me. Why? Because I'm right, I know I'm right, and I really don't need to convince anyone of it. (But it is fun sometimes!)

 

[Underground]

Go ahead and google GFCI current transformers. You may not find a lot of info, but you will find sources for them. You could actually build your own if you googled something like voltage compare integrated circuits and found the right semiconductor.

And click here for more proof I'm right.

You can find the current articles if it's that important to you. It's not that important to me because I'm right, I know I'm right, and I don't need to prove that to anyone. Though it is fun sometimes. LOL especially when I've been told I am wrong in front of such a large audience.

Although the incorrect information you are spreading is not likely to cause any safety issues, you should stick to shit you know. Many times misinformation can cause legitimate safety problems. In this particular case you may just have a bunch of clowns believe some horseshit because they don't know any better, but next time it may be something that burns someones house down. With or without their family in there.

 

[Underground]

Oh shit, I thought I lost that and re-typed.

 

[hiboy]

You guys are both touched.
A) A GFCI doesn't detect spikes. It has a current transformer on the hot and neutral. If there is a difference it opens the circuit. It does this because the only way to get a difference is if there is a short to ground. Hence the name ground fault interrupter. Yes they can trip on heavy motor starts because it is an inductive load which creates inductive reactance current.

B) Yes you can put 3 wire fuckin outlets on the load side of a GFCI. In fact, that's the only way you can. And you have to label them "No equipment ground" I don't remember where it is. 250 somewhere I'm sure, look it up.

Hey Underground,

I'm not talkling about spikes, we are just trying to help our buddy here get a 3 prong outlet where there isnt one. wHy dont you read the previous pages, and no you cant put 3 prongers on the load. YOu are definitley mistaken but thats ok. Loook it up:harvest: SORRY a gfi doesnt create a ground for load side equipment. YOur suggesting dangerous situations for the unexperienced readers here. Definitley DONT listen to UNDGERGROUND

 

[Underground]

Hey Underground,

I'm not talkling about spikes, we are just trying to help our buddy here get a 3 prong outlet where there isnt one. wHy dont you read the previous pages, and no you cant put 3 prongers on the load. YOu are definitley mistaken but thats ok. Loook it up:harvest: SORRY a gfi doesnt create a ground for load side equipment. YOur suggesting dangerous situations for the unexperienced readers here. Definitley DONT listen to UNDGERGROUND

Where the fuck do you guys get me saying that it gives you a ground? Where am I suggesting anything dangerous? Is this from the guy who says running 2 wire 120v solenoids around water is just as safe as running 24v? LMAO
Here for those too lazy too click the link

You may run into some "resi" work that involves retrofitting an existing 2-wire system. What are your options when working with old 2-wire wiring devices?

The NEC requires you to install grounding-type receptacles on 15A and 20A branch circuits. Per Sec. 210-7, it also requires you to effectively ground the grounding contacts of those receptacles to the branch circuit equipment-grounding conductor. But, what can you do about old 2-wire nongrounding-type receptacles, where no ground exists in the outlet box?

Sec. 210-7(d)(3) permits any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire ungrounded receptacle:

(a) Replace it with another 2-wire receptacle;

(b) Replace it with a GFCI-type receptacle and mark the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground;” or

(c) Replace it with a grounding-type receptacle protected by a GFCI device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, you must mark the receptacles with the words “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground” (see sidebar below).

Let’s talk about the last two options. A GFCI-protected grounding-type receptacle without an equipment-grounding conductor is safer than a grounding-type receptacle with an equipment-grounding conductor, but without GFCI protection. This is because the GFCI protection device will clear a ground-fault when the fault current is 5mA (+ or - 1mA), which is less than the current level necessary to cause serious electric shock or electrocution.

A grounding-type receptacle without a ground is a safe installation, as long as the protection circuitry within the GFCI device has not failed from shorts or voltage transients.

When there is no GFCI protection provided, Sec. 250-130(c) allows you to replace an ungrounded-type receptacle with a grounding-type receptacle at an outlet box not containing an equipment-grounding conductor—if you bond the grounding contacts of the receptacle to any one of the following locations:

• Grounding electrode system (Sec. 250-50);

• Grounding electrode conductor;

• Panelboard equipment-grounding terminal; or

• Grounded service conductor.

Check Sec. 250-146 for the proper method of grounding receptacles and Sec. 250-148 for the proper method of terminating equipment-grounding conductors within receptacle outlet boxes.

Knob-and-tube wiring. Two-wire (nongrounding) circuits are often part of knob-and-tube wiring. Some old wiring designs of this type have shared-neutral conductors (actually a form of multiwire branch circuits) connected at unforeseeable points downstream of the receptacle. Some have loads connected through snap switches installed in the neutral conductor. This can create a troubleshooting nightmare. So how can these conditions affect GFCI operation?

Basically, a new GFCI device can appear to work normally—until someone switches on a downstream load that’s connected from a different ungrounded (hot) conductor to the neutral the GFCI is monitoring. The result: a differential neutral current that immediately nuisance trips the GFCI.

Here’s another knob-and-tube problem. Suppose you’ve correctly associated a line-side neutral with its line-side ungrounded counterpart. Although unimportant on a conventional feed-through receptacle, you have to know which is which when connecting the GFCI receptacle. Often conductor identification (if the grounded conductors were, in fact, ever identified) has long since been obliterated. So, you’ll have to actually connect and verify the operation of a small load (with only the circuit in question energized) to be sure.

By design, GFCI testers will not test a GFCI that’s protecting a 2-wire circuit. Here’s why. The GFCIs integral test button applies test current between the hot and neutral. This is not the case with GFCI testers. Instead, these testers apply the test current between the hot and equipment ground. So, if there’s no equipment ground, no test current will flow.

If any exposed metal parts are connected to the receptacle grounding contact (such as a metal faceplate or a weatherproof cover), the tester will energize them. Some testers apply up to 30mA of test current; so using one of these while touching a metal cover plate could result in an uncomfortable and possibly dangerous shock.


Sidebar: Understanding GFCIs

A GFCI protection device operates on the principle of monitoring the current imbalance between the ungrounded (hot) and grounded (neutral) conductors. In a typical 2-wire circuit, the current in amperes returning to the power supply will be the same as the current leaving the power supply (except for small leakage). If the difference between the current leaving and returning through the current transformer of the GFCI protection device is 5mA (`or11mA), the solid-state circuitry activates the shunt trip feature to open the switching contacts of the GFCI, thereby de-energizing the circuit.

WARNING: Sever electric shock or death can occur if a person touches the energized (line or hot) conductor and neutral conductor at the same time, even if the circuit is GFCI protected. This is because the current transformer within the GFCI protection device doesn’t sense any imbalance between the departing and returning current. Therefore, the switching contacts remain closed.

When a GFCI protection device fails, the switching contacts remain closed and the device continues to provide power—providing no GFCI protection.

According to a study (based on data accumulated by the American Society of Home Inspectors) published in the November/December 1999 issue of the IAEI News, 21% of the 1583 GFCI circuit breakers tested failed. Also, 19% of 4585 GFCI receptacles tested failed.

These failures were primarily attributed to damage from short circuits and voltage surges (lightning and other transients) to the metal oxide varistors (MOVs) used for built-in surge suppression. In areas of high lightning activity (such as Southwest Florida), the failure rate for GFCI circuit breakers was more than 57%.

 

[Underground]

Hey Underground,

I'm not talkling about spikes,Well no shit, that was addressed to the other guy. Or could you not pick that up from the conversations we were having on here? we are just trying to help our buddy here get a 3 prong outlet where there isnt one. wHy dont you read the previous pages, and no you cant put 3 prongers on the load. YOu are definitley mistaken but thats ok. Loook it up I already spoon fed you that one. Try to stop drooling for a minute and hold on to it this time.:harvest: SORRY a gfi doesnt create a ground for load side equipment. YOur suggesting dangerous situations for the unexperienced readers here.No. I am halting the spread of incorrect information. You said you can not install 3 wire receptacles on the load side of a gfci in a 2 wire circuit. The NFPA 70 says you can. Definitley DONT listen to UNDGERGROUND

Sorry bud. This isn't just a hobby for me.

 

[Mr. McGregor]

I think pimpin' is still running an ungrounded receptacle. Why can't he pound in a ground rod (assuming he's in a house or similar situation) and run a wire directly to it? Cheap, fast and effective. At least he has one grounded receptacle and the capacity to ground more.

Regards,
MM

 

[Underground]

I think pimpin' is still running an ungrounded receptacle. Why can't he pound in a ground rod (assuming he's in a house or similar situation) and run a wire directly to it? Cheap, fast and effective. At least he has one grounded receptacle and the capacity to ground more.

Regards,
MM

Legally or theoretically? It would be a violation of the NEC, but would obviously be safer. Ground rods are mostly supplemental though. He'd be better off tying into an existing grounding electrode system. If it's got city water in metal and copper piping, that is the best possible ground you can usually find.

In most cases the ground is there so that if an energized conductor comes into contact with metal surfaces it will cause the breaker/fuse to blow. In some cases the devices rely on it. Such as some lighting and control transformers.

 

[Mr. McGregor]

Ground rods are mostly supplemental though. He'd be better off tying into an existing grounding electrode system.

:worried

If it's got city water in metal and copper piping, that is the best possible ground you can usually find.

I'd hate to have a short to ground while I'm in the shower, huh?

 

[lazarus718]

I think pimpin' is still running an ungrounded receptacle. Why can't he pound in a ground rod (assuming he's in a house or similar situation) and run a wire directly to it? Cheap, fast and effective. At least he has one grounded receptacle and the capacity to ground more.

If he wants the ground, best thing to do would be to run a new line from the breaker panel or just the ground from a nearby grounded circuit.

To Underground: know you've been getting hounded on this one, sorry buddy. I don't think the original poster of this thread cares about the internal workings of the GFCI, he just wants a 3 pronged outlet. He didn't even know what the third prong was for originally bro. The little transformer to sense current fluctuations inside the device, I'll give you that bro. I don't think anybody cares if there is one there or there isn't, it is just important to know that it will "trip" if there is a current fluctuation (which you CAN define as a spike or a dip) of 5-6 mA. That's all that really matters isn't it?

Good info on the 2-wire installation of the GFCI, my point was to make sure that the guy popping one in realized that he still didn't have a magical ground appear by doing that. You are completely relying on that little outlet to work properly everytime, and if you have already needed to reset it a few times you are taking a risk of it not working the next time. Having a proper ground alongside your GFCI device is the safest option and that is what I recommend.

 

[Mr. McGregor]

If he wants the ground, best thing to do would be to run a new line from the breaker panel or just the ground from a nearby grounded circuit.

Couldn't agree more Lazarus. I inferred from pimpin's post that it might be a little intimidating for his skill set. Didn't want proper to get in the way of better.

Regards,
MM

 

[pimpin]

i cant believe you guys brought this thread out the wood works.all i was looking for is ttransfer to a three prong because i dont trust those liitle plastic converters running heavy equipment.what we ended up doing just running a ground from the b box thanx fellas

 

[Underground]

:worried




I'd hate to have a short to ground while I'm in the shower, huh?

Actually it wouldn't do anything to you at all. You would have to be a parallel connection to earth. You would have the same potential as the piping so even if someone came and ripped out the main water line nothing would happen. Like a bird on a wire.

If he wants the ground, best thing to do would be to run a new line from the breaker panel or just the ground from a nearby grounded circuit.

To Underground: know you've been getting hounded on this one, sorry buddy. I don't think the original poster of this thread cares about the internal workings of the GFCI, he just wants a 3 pronged outlet. He didn't even know what the third prong was for originally bro. The little transformer to sense current fluctuations inside the device, I'll give you that bro. I don't think anybody cares if there is one there or there isn't, it is just important to know that it will "trip" if there is a current fluctuation (which you CAN define as a spike or a dip) of 5-6 mA. That's all that really matters isn't it?

Good info on the 2-wire installation of the GFCI, my point was to make sure that the guy popping one in realized that he still didn't have a magical ground appear by doing that. You are completely relying on that little outlet to work properly everytime, and if you have already needed to reset it a few times you are taking a risk of it not working the next time. Having a proper ground alongside your GFCI device is the safest option and that is what I recommend.

I agree that no one gives a shit. There's no reason I should give a shit either. LOL I'm just really anal about everything. Which is why if it were mine, I'd do exactly as you suggested and run a new circuit.

PS They don't work properly every time. I don't have much confidence in them. One time when I was an apprentice I grabbed a ground and a hot from a circuit that was on a GFCI breaker and held on for at least a second, probably more, to see if it would really trip and it didn't. LOL the foreman told me I just had to hang on longer!

PPS You're right not to trust mechanical devices to do their job. Many times breakers don't trip. The safest option is always a fuse. Fuses are associated with unsafe shit only because you only ever see them with the old wiring. 1000 years from now a fuse will still melt and break the circuit. A breaker on the other hand will most likely be stuck in whatever position it was in. Plus a breaker can't respond as quickly. A breaker has to sense the fault or over current condition and then react.

 

[lazarus718]

i cant believe you guys brought this thread out the wood works.all i was looking for is ttransfer to a three prong because i dont trust those liitle plastic converters running heavy equipment.what we ended up doing just running a ground from the b box thanx fellas

That's freaking funny man, see what happens when you ask a bunch of stoners!!!