Possible lockout in living soil?

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Hey all, I have a MAC cut I found from a clone shop in Detroit that's struggling. It's in a 3x3 tent with two other plants. The other two aren't struggling as much - I have a lemon OG kush (dna genetics) that is stunted with a minor zinc and mg deficiency, and I have a purple punch plant (Detroit clone) that is showing what appears to be a zinc deficiency.

The MAC has been vegging 18/6 since early December. It's in a 5gal pot, under a 300w hps @ 20-24", Temps 65-75F, Humidity 58-65%, watered with RO until deficiencies appeared. I then began adding Recharge and Calmag @ 150ppm.

Soil mix: Roots Organic 707, promix, coco, EWC, ancient forest, seabird guano (12/11/2), Jamaican Guano (0/11/0), and BOSS potting amendment w/ calmag - 24 organic ingredients. I mixed this soil with my tap water which I later discovered was 600ppm pH 8+. I let this mix sit for 30+ days, and I've ran it successfully before but without the guano or tap water.

My best guess now is that the extra phosphorus I added with the guano was completely unnecessary and bound to the extra calcium that came with my tap water. I've since learned phosphorus will bind with calcium to form calcium phosphate - a form that is unavailable to the plant. The last watering was a 6.0 pH and the runoff was 6.5 pH.

The MAC seems especially sensitive to over watering. I prefer to water when the pot feels 20% of its wet weight.

Water Schedule:
21 days ago 1gal RO w/ Recharge
12 days 2/3 gal w/ kelp+Recharge
7 days ago 1/2 gal RO w/ camag 200ppm + Recharge.

The plant has been improving as it has dried out and as I have been limiting light intensity, but its still showing deficiencies. I've checked extensively for russet mites; the edge leaf curl seems to be a root issue (over-watering).

I'm curious what others might see in my pics and if there's any advice. My next course of action might be to start using mammoth p to break down that calcium-phosphate.

Thank you for your help!

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Did you use a scope to try to identify russets? Your plants look exactly like my first encounter with the cyclamen mite. I spent weeks chasing what I thought was a zinc deficiency that led to a magnesium and nitrate lockout.

These things will hide on the underside of leaves and in the crevices of new flowering sites. If you've never encountered them before I suggest at least a 50x scope and spend some time researching these things so you know what you are looking for.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Did you use a scope to try to identify russets? Your plants look exactly like my first encounter with the cyclamen mite. I spent weeks chasing what I thought was a zinc deficiency that led to a magnesium and nitrate lockout.

These things will hide on the underside of leaves and in the crevices of new flowering sites. If you've never encountered them before I suggest at least a 50x scope and spend some time researching these things so you know what you are looking for.

I have a handheld 60-120x microscope, and I have not been able to locate any sort of mite. I've been searching for the last two weeks underneath and above the leaves, on their petioles, and at the nodes of young and older growth. Also, the leaf curl has waxed and waned with this plant - it seems to be a stress response from over-watering or soil compaction.

I don't have personal experience identifying anything besides spider mites and fungus gnats. I haven't heard of cyclamen mite, I'll look into those. Thank you

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
I have a handheld 60-120x microscope, and I have not been able to locate any sort of mite. I've been searching for the last two weeks underneath and above the leaves, on their petioles, and at the nodes of young and older growth. I don't have personal experience identifying anything besides spider mites and fungus gnats. I haven't heard of cyclamen mite, I'll look into those. Thank you

Cyclamen/Broads/Russets are all similar, typically when viewing through a scope on the undersides of leaves, you'll see what looks like tons of tiny little hairs, and amongst these hairs you'll see these "round" white to amber abnormalities. These abnormalities tend to be their eggs which is the easiest way to identify them.

Broad mites tend to lay singular eggs and will be marked with spots.

Cyclamen mites tend to lay eggs in clusters and should be easier to identify.

I've never encountered russets, and hope I never do, haha.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Cyclamen/Broads/Russets are all similar, typically when viewing through a scope on the undersides of leaves, you'll see what looks like tons of tiny little hairs, and amongst these hairs you'll see these "round" white to amber abnormalities. These abnormalities tend to be their eggs which is the easiest way to identify them.

Broad mites tend to lay singular eggs and will be marked with spots.

Cyclamen mites tend to lay eggs in clusters and should be easier to identify.

I've never encountered russets, and hope I never do, haha.

I'm hesitant to upload microscopic photos for fear it'll distract from what I believe is a nutrient issue in the soil, but here we go...this is the closest thing I can find to what might resemble an egg. Seem like proto-trichromes to me. I'm not very familiar with plant biology, but my gut tells me these are not eggs. This was captured on the underside of the leaf near the central vein of a leaf blade.

60x

120x

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Those are eggs

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

So here's the deal....

You have a cyclamen infestation. They are the worst of the bunch. These little fuckers seem to get happy with their toxins more so than the others. These toxins are pathogenic and contain a growth retardent that suppresses a plants ABA/JA/SA pathways. These are your basic plant hormones that relate to your plants defense mechanisms.

Your plants are showing hormonal imbalances that will continue to get worse, as you can see by your plants finger regression. Until you remove the infestation your plant will continue to struggle from a hormonal standpoint and refuse to feed.

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

...and never buy shady clones from a struggling spot in Detroit, most likely the reason they are struggling and you now have cyclamens.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
...and never buy shady clones from a struggling spot in Detroit, most likely the reason they are struggling and you now have cyclamens.

I see how my words can be misinterpretted, i'll edit my original post for clarity. I meant the MAC clone is struggling, not the the clone shop. The clone shop is ran by SUBdlc and its called 313 clones..they have built a reputation in California and now in Detroit. Haven't found any complaints yet about mite infestations.

You are sure about eggs then? Did it look like this for you when you dealt with your infestation? I am still dubious, because I cannot find a single mite!

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Those are eggs

I find these on all three of my plants. I can find them on asymptomatic leafs and leafs with deficiency issues. I find it hard to believe that I can find these "eggs" everywhere and not identify a single mite. Furthermore, I've been looking at leaves with this microscope for a couple of years now, and I recognize these structures to be proto-trichromes. My plants from different residencies, tents, seeds ect. had these "eggs" but had no symptoms of a mite infestation.

detroitjoe · Jan 28, 2020

Never had those bugs, and my experience was due to uneven temps at the canapy and soil/root level.

I got rid of the mature leaves, raised the container and she recovered great.

To me, cold temps.

Bmg1982 · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
I see how my words can be misinterpretted, i'll edit my original post for clarity. I meant the MAC clone is struggling, not the the clone shop. The clone shop is ran by SUBdlc and its called 313 clones..they have built a reputation in California and now in Detroit. Haven't found any complaints yet about mite infestations.

You are sure about eggs then? Did it look like this for you when you dealt with your infestation? I am still dubious, because I cannot find a single mite!

Does not resemble any proto trichome I've ever seen, and I know a bit as I work with carnivorous plants that utilize them to feed like Sundews. I've shared my opinion, sorry if I've offended you. Hope it works out.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Bmg1982 said:
Does not resemble any proto trichome I've ever seen, and I know a bit as I work with carnivorous plants that utilize them to feed like Sundews. I've shared my opinion, sorry if I've offended you. Hope it works out.

No, sorry to come off strongly! I am not offended by your opinion. I'm just worried this thread will close with people thinking this is a mite issue. When it seems to me that these aren't even eggs. Remember too that this is a MAC cut, known to be a very resinous cultivar.

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

detroitjoe said:
Never had those bugs, and my experience was due to uneven temps at the canapy and soil/root level.

I got rid of the mature leaves, raised the container and she recovered great.

To me, cold temps.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you mean your experience with symptoms similar to my pictures? I have this tent inside a bedroom, so the temps are uniform across the canopy and medium. Measured using an IR laser gun.

Beachwalker · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
I'm hesitant to upload microscopic photos for fear it'll distract from what I believe is a nutrient issue in the soil, but here we go...this is the closest thing I can find to what might resemble an egg. Seem like proto-trichromes to me. I'm not very familiar with plant biology, but my gut tells me these are not eggs. This was captured on the underside of the leaf near the central vein of a leaf blade.

60x
View attachment 934979

120x
View attachment 934980

Interesting thread I'm not sure what those are in the picture and I'm not in organic grower but I'm going to follow along because I want to see if those are mites, I'm tending to agree with you that they are not, but either way maybe we can find out? -good luck!

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Beachwalker said:
Interesting thread I'm not sure what those are in the picture and I'm not in organic grower but I'm going to follow along because I want to see if those are mites, I'm tending to agree with you that they are not, but either way maybe we can find out? -good luck!

Hey Beachwalker, thank you for stopping by! I'd love to draw attention this thread, so we can at the very least settle the mite issue. It wasn't what I was hoping to accomplish when I started this, but it's better than nothing.

I'm still thinking I messed up my soil mix with guano and 600ppm tap water. We'll have to wait and see if we can get any additional opinions on here.

Beachwalker · Jan 28, 2020

Docta Haze said:
Hey Beachwalker, thank you for stopping by! I'd love to draw attention this thread, so we can at the very least settle the mite issue. It wasn't what I was hoping to accomplish when I started this, but it's better than nothing.

I'm still thinking I messed up my soil mix with guano and 600ppm tap water. We'll have to wait and see if we can get any additional opinions on here.

Well I picked up a nice Greenleaf off the floor from just a couple hours ago and put my little microscope to it and I got to change my vote

not saying it is, but at this point I got to go with BMG because the little Proto trichomes i saw didn't look anything like what's in your picture, but those things do look like eggs

Not saying start spraying, let's get some input but I did what I could with my little microscope and it didn't look like your picture, hope I'm wrong! :/

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Beachwalker said:
Well I picked up a nice Greenleaf off the floor from just a couple hours ago and put my little microscope to it and I got to change my vote

not saying it is, but at this point I got to go with BMG because the little Proto trichomes i saw didn't look anything like what's in your picture, but those things do look like eggs

Not saying start spraying, let's get some input but I did what I could with my little microscope and it didn't look like your picture, hope I'm wrong! :/

Okay, thank you for sharing your observations! I've been looking at leafs from three different chemovars and notice varying levels of these structures. It could be that these are eggs, and the infestation is varying, but I am blown away that I can find hundreds of eggs and not one mite. Where are the mites?

Again the pictures above are from a MAC from clone (i.e. resinous plant, very mature in veg).

Here is a pic of a mid level green leaf from my lemon OG plant that show signs of zinc and Mg deficiency.

60x

Notice how there is even a clear or milkyness to these structures. Which, beside their round shape and ubiquity, is one of the reasons I've thought of them to be some sort of resin gland/proto-trichrome.

Beachwalker · Jan 28, 2020

I can't get a picture with my little portable microscope but the picture you just posted looks more like what I saw

but this picture doesn't..

Jeez I don't know? But I think we can find out!? Lots of top Growers on this site and lots of high-tech equipment too, Way Beyond My Little hand-held microscope

Docta Haze · Jan 28, 2020

Beachwalker said:
I can't get a picture with my little portable microscope but the picture you just posted looks more like what I saw

but this picture doesn't..
View attachment 934990

Jeez I don't know? But I think we can find out!? Lots of top Growers on this site and lots of high-tech equipment too, Way Beyond My Little hand-held microscope

I'm holding my cellphone camera to my handheld microscope right now and trying to snap pictures lol. I looked at a mid green leaf in my purple punch plant just now and found something similar. What I notice is if I look long and hard enough I can find these on every leaf, but their size, density, and opacity seem to vary suggesting a natural maturation of a resin gland...or an egg infestation? Lol I gotta take a break before I have a panic attack thinking about so many potential eggs. I still can't believe how I can't find any mites moving around anywhere.

Thank you for continuing the conversation with me Beachwalker. I'll keep my fingers crossed someone will come in here eventually and rule out mite eggs.

60x

Possible lockout in living soil?

Possible lockout in living soil?

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