Pre sexing and my odd problem any experience

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sliknuts89

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Ok so I have been doing this for some time of my life and am no expert still love advice. I'm a canna user all around, lately I've been focusing on stocks and keeping keepers n weeding out the shitters. I've never used or owned a seed of auto strains so my problem is baffling to me. I currently in my stock room have 2 elder stocks thats preflowers have gotten so bad to the point of looking like they are basically in flower and they have never been outta 24 hour light. The strains are TGa agent orange and serious warlock so I doubt it has anything w/ the genetics getting any form of auto in them . I also am a firm advisairy of auto strains no of fence to anyone just my views. Could this problem be a specific character trait of these strains or is this a problem caused by stress or growing them out for to long without cloning them sooner? Or can this be a natural pre flower particular to a certain small amount of strains? Please I need to know if I should get rid of them or just re clone? I don't wana ruin the potential of my other stocks by keeping them around. Could it be stress or something I can do about it or should I get rid of the beauty's for the greater good of my baby's? Never had this problem please someone shed. Light on my awkward situation. P.s. i'm almost positive they haven't harmed out on me thanks.
 
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sliknuts89

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Haven't Hermed out on me I meant not harmed but I'm not 100%possitive
 
KeystonerFMX

KeystonerFMX

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i think it may have something to do with the 24 hrs of light thing.. i run 18/6 in veg but a friend of mine uses 24hrs on. ive seen his plants look like they have been flowering for a couple weeks.. white hairs everywhere.. but yet no change in the 24 hr light schedule. this was a while ago, havent talked to him in awhile so i dont know what the outcome ended up being. so i guess im no help at all... buttt i have seen the issue before haha. you said you've had them for 2 yrs.. assuming they are in soil, what size containers? could they be rootbound at all?
 
baba G

baba G

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Yeah, what size containers are they in and how big are they and are they untopped or trained in anyway? Medium?
Did they experience any stress prior to onset of flowers?
 
KeystonerFMX

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No he said he has to elders he never did say how old they are and my two year old warlock mom is in a 228l tub so i guess that would be a 60 gallon i may be off a lil. But i have no trubles with my momes but i keep mine under 18/6 with no problums. slicknuts89 may need to change his lighting times as you say
you are completely right, i confused you saying yours were 2 yrs old with him saying he had 2 elders haha.. my bad flavorfinder.
 
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sliknuts89

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The containers are 1 gal because of space .. That could be the stress cus they are getting big and are toped and becoming too wide lol.. And to the photoperiod I'm Gunna switch ASAP but shout I slowly work to 18/6 or due rite away? I gotta say joining this site was a great idea I was sceptical at first but you guys honestly have given me fresh perspectives and greAt insight I didn't expect so many quality replies thanks bros ... And flavorfinder420 I am Gunna take cuttings and throw these monsters into flower but do you think the cloning will take a couple weeks longer due to the flowers present or usual time? It seems like most of you guys are in the state of cAli its my dream to live out there but until them I am so addicted to growing for the love of the plant and industry that I just wanna know wat it would be like to be growing without risks.
 
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sliknuts89

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And am I rite to be against most feminized plants and auto flowering strains please shed light if I'm wrong.
 
KeystonerFMX

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1 gallon containers are pretty small for elder mothers.. unless you get into root pruning and adding more soil etc. id say that combined with the 24 hrs of light is causing the stress.. i dont know the science behind it, someone else can chime in, but the dark period is supposed to be when the plants "sleep".. they use the dark period as their trigger to flower.. once that hits close to 12 hrs they begin flowering regardless of the length of daylight hrs. and as far as clones taking longer, thats a good possibility given their current stress level. feminized seeds=greater chance of herm but from reputable breeders there shouldnt be any issues unless you stress them. autoflower seeds=less potent and unable to clone so you will keep having to buy new seeds. the only place id ever use them is outside for an early harvest.. and that is only if they were free haha. and lastly, yes this site is secured https. hope this helps! good luck and welcome to the farm!
 
squiggly

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1 gallon containers are pretty small for elder mothers.. unless you get into root pruning and adding more soil etc. id say that combined with the 24 hrs of light is causing the stress.. i dont know the science behind it, someone else can chime in, but the dark period is supposed to be when the plants "sleep".. they use the dark period as their trigger to flower.. once that hits close to 12 hrs they begin flowering regardless of the length of daylight hrs.

I'll chime in here:

Here is how the flowering response occurs explained at an intermediate level (leaving out specifics).

A protein called phytochrome mediates this response. This protein can exist in two states.

The first state is called Pr, the second is called Pfr. These states differ according to what type of light they absorb.

Pr absorbs RED light and upon absorption changes states to Pfr.
Pfr absorbs FAR-RED light and upon absorption changes states to Pr.

So Pr wants red, and yields Pfr
Pfr wants far red and yields Pr.

Sunlight is very rich in red light, so throughout the day Pr will be converted to Pfr by this light.
Overnight Pfr slowly reverts to Pr (the "ground state" of the protein) without input of light.

Pr is an activator of the flowering response.

Protein kinetics often are such that before a protein becomes active, it must reach a certain concentration. If there is not a long enough dark period, the Pr never reaches a concentration that begins to activate flowering.

Nature takes care of this in a few ways. First, nights get longer as it gets closer to flowering time. Second, as it gets closer to flowering time the angle of the sun through the sky is changing such that more far-red light is produced near sun down (which increases the initial concentration of Pr before darkness sets in).

There have been experiments where plants are given say 18 hours a day of light and then blasted by far red light of a specific wavelength for a bit at the end of the light period to rapidly convert Pfr to Pr. This gives the ability to do more photosynthesis in the plant while flowering--these experiments are generally successful though there are some exceptions.

In addition to all of this, Pr/fr are thought to play a role in circadian rhythm for the plant--the theories on this are more biological in nature and as such are not really my forte. I'll leave the exploration there up to you.

Phytochrome does all this by altering gene expression in the nucleus. It is know to interact with transcription factors which are proteins responsible for jump starting DNA translation, which is a step prior to protein synthesis--nearly all cell signals result in the activation, deactivation, production, or dismantling of a protein.

It is also thought that phytochrome acts as a kinase which is a special type of protein which acts as an activator/deactivator of already existing proteins--often times a celluar response happens according to a chain of kinases activating each other in a row to create a response at the end of the chain--with many regulatory checkpoints in between. Some kinases even activate (phosphorylate) themselves! The mechanism for Pr kinase activity is unknown.


I hope this helps.

Ultimately the answer is this--it's difficult to know what's going wrong. 24 hours of light works in practice, but it is not natural--and we do not understand exactly how all of this stuff is working, even in the most studied of plants (like Arabidopsis)--let alone a very scarcely studied plant like this one. Because we don't really understand this system fully, there isn't much to be said definitively about what it will do under conditions which are not the norm (24 hours of light). We barely know anything about what it does under natural conditions if we keep this in context of the complexity of the plant.

If you're doing something unnatural to your plant, and it's kicking back at you--that's a great place to start looking. Is it possible that you are hitting it with an extreme amount of far-red light?

As someone else mentioned this could be a problem with getting root bound. If the plant senses its running out of space to expand, it may flip on certain transcription factors which are unrelated to photoperiod to get ready for flowering as quickly as possible once photoperiod allows due to the limited nutrients and space for growth available.

This is something which is observed in other plants, I see no reason why cannabis can't follow suit.

Good luck!
 
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sliknuts89

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Thanks keystoner and squiggly it totally makes sense so I guess the question is why do books written by supposed horticultural & bud gods tell you to do this to your stocks guess no one can know it all..... And with the whole root bound problem can I fix by sizing up the container size or are they fucked... Can someone also give me a how to on root pruning cus it might be helpful if I was able to keep my babes in smaller containers because of space ...... Thanks to all
 
squiggly

squiggly

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If they are root bound at the edges, you can slice off A SMALL AMOUNT (think centimeter scale 1-2 tops should do it) all around the edges and repot such that new soil is underneath and all around the transplant.
 
KeystonerFMX

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squiggly... you are precisely who i had hoped would explain it to us hahaha and you went above and beyond. thanks! good call also on rootbounding causing it to start flowering with the "running out of room" theory.. never thought of it that way!
 
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