PROBLEMS AGAIN

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johnnyrex

johnnyrex

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Rez change on Sunday start if week 9 ppm 330 ph 5.1 next day Monday ppm 320 but ph 4.8 added ph up to 5.7 same day Monday. Now today Tuesday just came home from work ppm 310 but ph drop to 5.3 go figure.
Air Temp 78-80F. Dehumidifier set at 40 but hydrometer reads 52% RH water temp is 61f as I lowered my temp to frost them up. The plants now are at final stage so leaves are starting to yellow up thank
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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Did you call Current Culture?? They might be able to help. I think one of the mods on this site is with CC, but I'm not positive about that. Anyways, good luck with your harvest.
 
johnnyrex

johnnyrex

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Thanks lex I indeed reached out to them they told me that just ride it out and adjust ph as I need to. But actually that was not the answer I wanted I was looking for more as to why this was happening so I can correct it or maybe it's just me wanted it to be as seamless as possible lol
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

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Thanks lex I indeed reached out to them they told me that just ride it out and adjust ph as I need to. But actually that was not the answer I wanted I was looking for more as to why this was happening so I can correct it or maybe it's just me wanted it to be as seamless as possible lol


I don't blame you, those systems and nutrients are expensive and I would want everything to be as seamless as possible too lol

Your next run you can start fresh and see what happens. IMO the only thing else that would make sense is bacterial growth, but you can find out if thats it when this run is done soon. When/if you find the issue please report back because it will help me and I'm sure others.
 
johnnyrex

johnnyrex

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No doubt I will Thursday I start my flush and harvest on Tuesday by Wed we will know lol thanks everyone for all the great info you have given me
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

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First of all remove the idea of "eating" from the way you think of nutrients - they ARE NOT FOOD. They make up the elemental needs of plants stricktly in the most base sence of chemical reactions, similar to the way people use multi vitamins.

Of those vitamins we are giving plants, 96% are provided by the atmosphere (C, H, and O). they cannot be given to plants, however we can impede the plants access to them - (which is usually the cause of nutritional imbalances. ) So N,P,K,Ca,Mg,S,Mn, etc all together make up 4% of the elemental needs of plants. (light is the plants food.)

Next, the idea that they can "drink" and not "eat" ceases to make sense. Plants do have selectable membrane at the epidermis of the rhizosphere, however the depth of the ability for them to select is probably minimal, and for our purposes serve mostly as a "clotting" agent whereby the root becomes less active or even inactive and begins to rot. This is why UC roots is so effective, it exfoliates clotted roots.

Finally, the mantra pH up, ec down = good and pH down Ec up = bad, is all well and good if your flooding and draining, but for our purposes leaves much information to be desired.

Let water consumption be your guide, plants that are not up-taking water cannot be up-taking nutrients; where-as plants using 2 gallons per day, per plant site, of very very low solution strengths can be up-taking astronomical total nutrient values.

Sorry to quote myself, but i am trying to get people to think about nurients and nutrient usage in a different way. It will really help you in many ways, but with in 1 day posts are already back to EC down pH up = good.

Thank you, however, cap and Squiggly for discussing a more nuanced understanding.
 
Growboy

Growboy

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You have my mind changed question is quantum9 dessertsqirrel just a different name?
 
Growboy

Growboy

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Rez change on Sunday start if week 9 ppm 330 ph 5.1 next day Monday ppm 320 but ph 4.8 added ph up to 5.7 same day Monday. Now today Tuesday just came home from work ppm 310 but ph drop to 5.3 go figure.
Air Temp 78-80F. Dehumidifier set at 40 but hydrometer reads 52% RH water temp is 61f as I lowered my temp to frost them up. The plants now are at final stage so leaves are starting to yellow up thank
what ppm scale are you using
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

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This name change thing has gone too far... I lost the DS password and logic doesnt seem to want to re-set it......... THATS ALL.

haha
 
squiggly

squiggly

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you guys are confusing yourselves with ppm scales, use EC.

Very much agree with this.

EC is a better measure of ionic strength--which is extremely important in nutrient mediums.

As Quantum9 said, the plants do not "eat" nutrients.

They absorb them selectively according to equilibrium (if absorbed through osmosis) or according to concentrations (if transported by proteins).

There is a bit more selectivity to uptake than I think you're initially letting on--much of uptake is controlled by proteins which transport one specific molecule. They will do this faster/slower depending on several factors--the most important of which is the concentration of the nutrients in the medium, which is only very slightly more important than temperature.

I slightly disagree about the 4% figure in terms of the nutrients.

Let's look at phosphate as a great example here:

So we know that cell growth proliferates by mitosis (eukaryotic cell division). In order for this to occur a full copy of the DNA of each cell must be completed before two daughter cells can be formed.

C. sativa has been estimated (after incomplete genome sequencing) to have somewhere near 400 million base pairs.

Each base pair will be flanked by 2 molecules of phosphorous on either side (as the phosphorous provides the backbone for DNA).

So thats 800 million molecules of P required for each and every new cell (and the reality is that this is much higher--because new ATP/GTP must be formed for each new cell, as well as phospholipids (and other molecules of which P is a structural element).

Let's just break this down for the DNA and forget all of that, though.

Each mole of phosphate contains 1 mole of phosphorous. 1 Mole of phosphate weighs 94.97 grams.

That amount contains 6.022x10^23 molecules of phosphorous (and 4 times as many of oxygen).

If we do the math we find that this breaks down to about 10billion cells worth of phosphorous (for DNA needs only)

A 6 foot plant is probably into the area of trillions of cells (anywhere from 5-40 trillion cells). Some might not need new DNA--but they will all need additional phosphorus inputs.

Similar arguments can be made for, at the very least, nitrogen [and sulfur, albeit less ubiquitously].

Even though its not as ubiquitous structurally, sulfur is extremely important for catalysis, structural synthesis, and enzyme function.

Nitrogen is a component of every single amino acid, and every single base pair in DNA. It is an extremely important molecule--and makes up much more than 4% of a plants needs. Literally something like 80% of the molecules in the plant contain nitrogen. Essentially all of the macromolecules (polymers) in the plant are made up of monomers which contain at least one atom of nitrogen. This includes every single protein, which make up the bulk of the plant--and represent the most important thing for us to "feed" (protein synthesis).

Now it is true, the relative amounts are lower than C, H, and O--because these make up essentially everything. While the 4% figure may be close to the mark, I think it isn't really informative in the way it should be.

It puts less emphasis on these molecules/elements when in fact they need the most attention (because CHO are so ubiquitous).
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

201
63
nice discussion squiggly! I definitely did not mean to imply that nutrients and nutrient profiles are not the most important aspect of running a UC, or essential to cellular processes, and in some cases tissue creation. Nice explanation of several cellular processes btw.

I wanted to highlight the role nutrients play with-in the larger picture, as i find that more often then not an over usage of nutrients leads to the inability of the plant to access or process (the far more important) ambient / ubiquitous elements, and that they play and even greater role in plant health and growth.
 
PrefersHam

PrefersHam

170
28
Very much agree with this.

EC is a better measure of ionic strength--which is extremely important in nutrient mediums.

As Quantum9 said, the plants do not "eat" nutrients.

They absorb them selectively according to equilibrium (if absorbed through osmosis) or according to concentrations (if transported by proteins).

There is a bit more selectivity to uptake than I think you're initially letting on--much of uptake is controlled by proteins which transport one specific molecule. They will do this faster/slower depending on several factors--the most important of which is the concentration of the nutrients in the medium, which is only very slightly more important than temperature.

I slightly disagree about the 4% figure in terms of the nutrients.

Let's look at phosphate as a great example here:

So we know that cell growth proliferates by mitosis (eukaryotic cell division). In order for this to occur a full copy of the DNA of each cell must be completed before two daughter cells can be formed.

C. sativa has been estimated (after incomplete genome sequencing) to have somewhere near 400 million base pairs.

Each base pair will be flanked by 2 molecules of phosphorous on either side (as the phosphorous provides the backbone for DNA).

So thats 800 million molecules of P required for each and every new cell (and the reality is that this is much higher--because new ATP/GTP must be formed for each new cell, as well as phospholipids (and other molecules of which P is a structural element).

Let's just break this down for the DNA and forget all of that, though.

Each mole of phosphate contains 1 mole of phosphorous. 1 Mole of phosphate weighs 94.97 grams.

That amount contains 6.022x10^23 molecules of phosphorous (and 4 times as many of oxygen).

If we do the math we find that this breaks down to about 10billion cells worth of phosphorous (for DNA needs only)

A 6 foot plant is probably into the area of trillions of cells (anywhere from 5-40 trillion cells). Some might not need new DNA--but they will all need additional phosphorus inputs.

Similar arguments can be made for, at the very least, nitrogen [and sulfur, albeit less ubiquitously].

Even though its not as ubiquitous structurally, sulfur is extremely important for catalysis, structural synthesis, and enzyme function.

Nitrogen is a component of every single amino acid, and every single base pair in DNA. It is an extremely important molecule--and makes up much more than 4% of a plants needs. Literally something like 80% of the molecules in the plant contain nitrogen. Essentially all of the macromolecules (polymers) in the plant are made up of monomers which contain at least one atom of nitrogen. This includes every single protein, which make up the bulk of the plant--and represent the most important thing for us to "feed" (protein synthesis).

Now it is true, the relative amounts are lower than C, H, and O--because these make up essentially everything. While the 4% figure may be close to the mark, I think it isn't really informative in the way it should be.

It puts less emphasis on these molecules/elements when in fact they need the most attention (because CHO are so ubiquitous).


Wow havent seen Avogadros number in a long time. Thanks for the refresher squiggly.

Peace,


Ham
 
W

Worm254

29
3
Rez change on Sunday start if week 9 ppm 330 ph 5.1 next day Monday ppm 320 but ph 4.8 added ph up to 5.7 same day Monday. Now today Tuesday just came home from work ppm 310 but ph drop to 5.3 go figure.
Air Temp 78-80F. Dehumidifier set at 40 but hydrometer reads 52% RH water temp is 61f as I lowered my temp to frost them up. The plants now are at final stage so leaves are starting to yellow up thank
In my (limited) experience i have found that as the plants use up the CS base nutes the ph raises. But as they use up the CS Booster the ph drops(Water consumption stays the same regardless of ph changing up or down). these results so far have been consistent over multiple res changes and many add backs. Something to possibly pay attention to or keep in the back of your mind on your next run and see if you find the same correlation. Also in my experience the base nutes where "used" first/quicker than the booster was.
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

201
63
Not to be flippant, but why do all of my text books have this (or a similar) chart then?

IMGP0751
IMGP0752
IMGP0753
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

2,972
263
total uptake, or tissue - basically the same thing.


Wouldn't cannabis be different because of the buds?? Basically, the total uptake during flower would not be similar to a leaf sample because the buds require different amounts of nutrients then leaves, right??
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

201
63
That is "plants," which is a common way to approach any plant in the AG industry.

This idea that we have some special cultivair with special needs, is, from an Agricultural standpoint - ridiculous.
 
LexLuthor

LexLuthor

2,972
263
That is "plants," which is a common way to approach any plant in the AG industry.

This idea that we have some special cultivair with special needs, is, from an Agricultural standpoint - ridiculous.


Well some plants don't have a flowering/fruiting process, but yeah, I am referring specifically to cannabis because that is what I grow, you can get nutrients specifically for orchids at lowes, or veggies, like tomatoes.

So my question wasn't about the special needs of cannabis, just if the total uptake/tissue sample would be inaccurate during the flowering process because the buds would need different nutrients.

I think during the veg process it would be fairly accurate.
 

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