Problems in Mid to Late Flower

[hm7]

Hey everyone,

Hoping for some help here. It seems every run I do, I always run into the same issue at some point, but the more I do, the later the problems seem to start, so I suppose that's a good thing. Right now, everything has been looking excellent during Veg and early flower, but now that I'm in mid to late flower, I'm seeing some issues.

This is the first time trying CropSalt nutrients, so I'm following the manufacturer's recommend amounts (Flower nutrients - 5.1g A / 2.6g B). According to their FAQ, they suggest not adding anything else to them, including calmag, etc - so I've been trying to follow their recommended regiment. EC is sitting about 2.1, PH has been largely sitting around 6.0 (anywhere between 5.8-6.2, and I tend to leave it alone honestly). I'm using buffered coco, and right now watering 3x a day.

To my eyes, this looks like a calcium issue, and I also personally feel that the plant is showing signs of too much Nitrogen, as it looks really dark green/shiny to me, but again - first time running their nutes, I wanted to follow their suggested guide). I'm not really sure what to do at this point, nor am I really sure how to adjust their nutrients if needed.


I realize she looks pretty bad. Hopefully someone can help with some suggestions for future runs. I've got quite a few runs under my belt, but I still always end up with some kind of problem like this for some reason.

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[Grownsince95]

It sounds and looks like you are not running enough water through the coco and you are accumulating excess salts. Most coco growers (including myself) are lazy about runoff because it's a pain in the ass but it's the key to success. What's your runoff EC? I bet it's really high. It would go a long way to explaining why it's happening at the same time in multiple grows too.

You must have at least 10% runoff every day who's EC is within 200 ppm of what you put in. I would aim for under 2.0 next run because that is starting on the high side with little room for error.

 

[hm7]

It sounds and looks like you are not running enough water through the coco and you are accumulating excess salts. Most coco growers (including myself) are lazy about runoff because it's a pain in the ass but it's the key to success. What's your runoff EC? I bet it's really high. It would go a long way to explaining why it's happening at the same time in multiple grows too.

You must have at least 10% runoff every day who's EC is within 200 ppm of what you put in. I would aim for under 2.0 next run because that is starting on the high side with little room for error.

Yeah, you might be right. I'm using an automated watering system I've been slowly building, so honestly, I haven't been checking my runoff. I've read so much conflicting information on reading runoff with coco, some people seem to swear by it, others claim it's pointless as long as you know what's going in.

Unfortunately, with the bucket system I'm using, collecting runoff is not easily done at all as it all runs directly out into a tube which gets dumped along with the dehumidifier, AC, etc drain water too.


Due to it being an automated watering system, I have been watering for about 1.5 minutes with each watering, but perhaps that's just simply not enough! I would estimate there's well over 10% runoff with each watering though, but ... it very well could need more.


I think I'll try mixing up a fresh batch of nutrients here and manually running a decent amount through the bucket, then increasing my watering times even more, perhaps maybe adding an additional watering cycle too. I have read some people in coco have started doing a lot more 'mini-watering' cycles throughout the day instead of larger incremental ones, and perhaps, that would help me in my case too.


Thanks for the advice! Much appreciated!

 

[Grownsince95]

Yeah, you might be right. I'm using an automated watering system I've been slowly building, so honestly, I haven't been checking my runoff. I've read so much conflicting information on reading runoff with coco, some people seem to swear by it, others claim it's pointless as long as you know what's going in.

Unfortunately, with the bucket system I'm using, collecting runoff is not easily done at all as it all runs directly out into a tube which gets dumped along with the dehumidifier, AC, etc drain water too.


Due to it being an automated watering system, I have been watering for about 1.5 minutes with each watering, but perhaps that's just simply not enough! I would estimate there's well over 10% runoff with each watering though, but ... it very well could need more.


I think I'll try mixing up a fresh batch of nutrients here and manually running a decent amount through the bucket, then increasing my watering times even more, perhaps maybe adding an additional watering cycle too. I have read some people in coco have started doing a lot more 'mini-watering' cycles throughout the day instead of larger incremental ones, and perhaps, that would help me in my case too.


Thanks for the advice! Much appreciated!

I run an automated drain to waste coco as well. If you want a quick check just shove 3 or 4 paper towels down into your bucket or whatever then squeeze them out into a clean container. Sometimes I just sit a fabric pot right on top of them.

People who say checking runoff numbers in coco is not important are mistaken. Just the fact that you have to "estimate" what's coming out is not a good place to start until you have your system down pat.

 

[hm7]

I run an automated drain to waste coco as well. If you want a quick check just shove 3 or 4 paper towels down into your bucket or whatever then squeeze them out into a clean container. Sometimes I just sit a fabric pot right on top of them.

People who say checking runoff numbers in coco is not important are mistaken. Just the fact that you have to "estimate" what's coming out is not a good place to start until you have your system down pat.

I'll have to give that a go and see if I can get anything out of it. I'm using some very small 1.2gal containers from 'The Bucket Company', which have a hard tube running out of them, but I can probably temporarily remove that tube and get a reading. I should probably redesign the system for the next run, maybe put a little valve in the runoff tube to specifically catch runoff just to check - that seems like a great idea and nice add-on!

Awesome you're running an automated watering system too. Can I ask how many waterings and the duration you're doing on yours throughout flower?

 

[Grownsince95]

I'll have to give that a go and see if I can get anything out of it. I'm using some very small 1.2gal containers from 'The Bucket Company', which have a hard tube running out of them, but I can probably temporarily remove that tube and get a reading. I should probably redesign the system for the next run, maybe put a little valve in the runoff tube to specifically catch runoff just to check - that seems like a great idea and nice add-on!

Awesome you're running an automated watering system too. Can I ask how many waterings and the duration you're doing on yours throughout flower?

My system is 1/2" line with hydro halo rings to 3 gal fabric pots. Timing will be different for everyone because of pump size/flow rate, fixtures etc. Going to a smaller pot makes the watering more frequent. My current run are auto flowers under a 6/2 light schedule and they get 8 seconds every 3 hours which add up to about a half a gallon per plant per day with a cup of runoff, so about a cup per watering.

This plant was in a 1 gallon pot but was watered 16 times a day for 8 seconds each time.

 

[hm7]

Very nice, I used those rings on my previous build, but switched it up this time.

Makes sense on the watering times, duration. I'm assuming you're watering only when the lights are on? I will try to catch some run off here today as I need to do a res change anyway. I think I will also be increasing my watering frequency and duration to be on the safe side, and I will try to take a large amount of fresh nutrient solution and manually pour it over the medium to try to flush it out.

 

[Grownsince95]

Very nice, I used those rings on my previous build, but switched it up this time.

Makes sense on the watering times, duration. I'm assuming you're watering only when the lights are on? I will try to catch some run off here today as I need to do a res change anyway. I think I will also be increasing my watering frequency and duration to be on the safe side, and I will try to take a large amount of fresh nutrient solution and manually pour it over the medium to try to flush it out.

And always put less than what the manufacturer recommends until you know how your plants like it. The business side of cannabis has always hyped the fertilizer too much, they need a lot less than you think. Good luck!

 

[hm7]

And always put less than what the manufacturer recommends until you know how your plants like it. The business side of cannabis has always hyped the fertilizer too much, they need a lot less than you think. Good luck!

Well, your instincts were dead on. I did check my runoff, EC is sitting at nearly 4.3, and pH is sitting down at 5.1! Not good.....

At least now that I know this, I can start to correct this! I feel like this simple, stupid mistake on my part has been the source of a lot of my problems over several runs. I will try to get this re-balanced back out, and keep a better eye on this going forward. Really appreciate your time and advice. I know it's such a simple thing, but ... I guess I took runoff for granted.

 

[Grownsince95]

Well, your instincts were dead on. I did check my runoff, EC is sitting at nearly 4.3, and pH is sitting down at 5.1! Not good.....

At least now that I know this, I can start to correct this! I feel like this simple, stupid mistake on my part has been the source of a lot of my problems over several runs. I will try to get this re-balanced back out, and keep a better eye on this going forward. Really appreciate your time and advice. I know it's such a simple thing, but ... I guess I took runoff for granted.

Glad I could help, stick around here and you'll be a pro in no time! It worked for me.

 

[hm7]

Glad I could help, stick around here and you'll be a pro in no time! It worked for me.

ha! Given how long I've been at this, and how many problems I've continuously run into, I doubt that, but I appreciate the kind words of encouragement lol. I've yet to have a run go smoothly without issues regardless of what medium I've opted to try, but ... hopefully this will help.


I think my biggest issue now is, how to go about flushing/re-balancing my coco? I'm assuming this isn't going to be as simple as just increasing my watering times and letting it continue to roll. I am thinking I probably need to just a a 1gal container out, and manually pour over the coco here? I'm a bit worried to cause an 'over damp' situation though.

 

[Grownsince95]

ha! Given how long I've been at this, and how many problems I've continuously run into, I doubt that, but I appreciate the kind words of encouragement lol. I've yet to have a run go smoothly without issues regardless of what medium I've opted to try, but ... hopefully this will help.


I think my biggest issue now is, how to go about flushing/re-balancing my coco? I'm assuming this isn't going to be as simple as just increasing my watering times and letting it continue to roll. I am thinking I probably need to just a a 1gal container out, and manually pour over the coco here? I'm a bit worried to cause an 'over damp' situation though.

You can get a "sledgehammer" like product which is designed specifically for flushing or you could just run a shit ton of water through it. If you have an efficient system to dispose of the runoff it's no problem. A plant safe surfactant like castile soap or yucca extract added to the reservoir works wonders here for thick established root balls.

There's no need to worry about over watering if your coco has enough perlite and you haven't compacted it while you planted. It naturally "traps" enough air to never be a problem. My plants spend their entire life from 95 to 100% saturated.

 

[Grownsince95]

ha! Given how long I've been at this, and how many problems I've continuously run into, I doubt that, but I appreciate the kind words of encouragement lol. I've yet to have a run go smoothly without issues regardless of what medium I've opted to try, but ... hopefully this will help.


I think my biggest issue now is, how to go about flushing/re-balancing my coco? I'm assuming this isn't going to be as simple as just increasing my watering times and letting it continue to roll. I am thinking I probably need to just a a 1gal container out, and manually pour over the coco here? I'm a bit worried to cause an 'over damp' situation though.

If you're continuously running into problems and changing growing mediums and systems, try taking a step back and doing less. Laser focus on temp/humidity/vpd and feed the minimum, not the optimum. Be more of an observer and only intervene when necessary. Sometimes we need to get out of their way and just let them do their thing.

Twice as many plants are killed by love than by neglect.

 

[hm7]

If you're continuously running into problems and changing growing mediums and systems, try taking a step back and doing less. Laser focus on temp/humidity/vpd and feed the minimum, not the optimum. Be more of an observer and only intervene when necessary. Sometimes we need to get out of their way and just let them do their thing.

Twice as many plants are killed by love than by neglect.

Yeah, I'm talking trying several different methods over several years and runs here.

My first interest was DWC, but I just live where it's too warm and don't have a nice basement for it, plain and simple - loved the idea, but couldn't ever successfully combat against root rot for whatever reason, no matter if I ran bennies or sterile.

I ran cocoa next just to try it out, and while I liked it, I wanted to try soil just to see what all the 'buzz' was about with organics (which worked great, but I got tired of all the damn fungus gnat issues which made me swear off soil), and I've finally settled back on automated cocoa being the least hands on and easiest/best for me.

My temps, humidity, lighting, VPD, etc are all dialed in nearly perfect. I think this is just a 'me trying to dial in this custom built automated watering system problem' right now, which I think I'm getting close to doing. I think my biggest problem right now is just simply not running enough nutrient solution through with each watering. Hopefully, next run will be better. I'm looking forward to the day when I can complete a run without any major issues. So many people seem to have perfect runs without these problems, many even on their first attempts, and here I sit and struggle for years lol.

I used to have tremendous problems during seedlings and veg, and now, I've got them down pat. It's always a flowering issue for me now. Last run it was early flowering issues, this time, it's now shifted mid to late flower where the issues are cropping up, so ... I guess I'm just a slow learner lol.

 

[hm7]

I spaced out 3 separate, 3gal flushes today. The final one for the night had my EC down to about 2.58, and pH at about 5.4.

EC is still a bit high, and the pH is still low for sure compared to what's going in, but this is a huge improvement over what it was when I first checked runoff earlier today. Hopefully this helps! I'm going to do another similar flush over the course of tomorrow.

From what you were saying Grownsince95, I should expect my runoff EC to always be a little higher than what's going in? Would it be expected my runoff pH be slightly lower than what's going in too, or do you suspect I still have residual salt build up that's still working its way out?

​

 

[carlosescobar]

I did the same thing in coco , twice, treated it like soil and didnt flush enough and it always happens right at the end. i never got my 4 plants to recover, ..first time it happened i thought it was the light that was too close so i moved the light up and gave it another feed . lol. i moved to soil since then and have a much easier time growing

 

[Grownsince95]

I spaced out 3 separate, 3gal flushes today. The final one for the night had my EC down to about 2.58, and pH at about 5.4.

EC is still a bit high, and the pH is still low for sure compared to what's going in, but this is a huge improvement over what it was when I first checked runoff earlier today. Hopefully this helps! I'm going to do another similar flush over the course of tomorrow.

From what you were saying Grownsince95, I should expect my runoff EC to always be a little higher than what's going in? Would it be expected my runoff pH be slightly lower than what's going in too, or do you suspect I still have residual salt build up that's still working its way out?

​

Yes, expect the EC to be higher and PH doesn't matter as much unless it's drastically different one way or another. The plant is only going to allow the minerals it needs through the root membrane, with the exception of nitrogen, calcium and boron, while transpiration/vpd dictates how much water is moving through the plant. This causes the root zone/runoff EC to climb because the plant naturally leaves behind a more concentrated solution.

N, Ca and B "ride the wave" with transpiration and get into the plant really easily, which might be why you're seeing the tip burn and funky green color. Also, excess Na can be mistaken for K by the plant and absorbed instead. What's your temp and humidity like?

 

[LoveGrowingIt]

What's your temp and humidity like?

^ Always near the top of the list of things to consider when trying to solve a problem and closely related to VPD. We usually think of leaf curl, or "canoeing", as being caused by high light intensity, but there may be other causes. High humidity (or low VPD) is one of those.

N, Ca and B "ride the wave" with transpiration and get into the plant really easily

I don't think you meant Boron (B). It's immobile and not a common deficiency.

 

[Grownsince95]

^ Always near the top of the list of things to consider when trying to solve a problem and closely related to VPD. We usually think of leaf curl, or "canoeing", as being caused by high light intensity, but there may be other causes. High humidity (or low VPD) is one of those.


I don't think you meant Boron (B). It's immobile and not a common deficiency.

I did mean Boron and yes you are correct it is extremely uncommon. I mentioned it because it moves through the root zone with the water like Ca does, which is also immobile. Along with N and Na they are the easiest to overdose. All the others P, K, Mg, etc have to be actively absorbed by the plant. If the plant doesn't need them, they stay behind in the root zone and build up.

 

[hm7]

Yes, expect the EC to be higher and PH doesn't matter as much unless it's drastically different one way or another. The plant is only going to allow the minerals it needs through the root membrane, with the exception of nitrogen, calcium and boron, while transpiration/vpd dictates how much water is moving through the plant. This causes the root zone/runoff EC to climb because the plant naturally leaves behind a more concentrated solution.

N, Ca and B "ride the wave" with transpiration and get into the plant really easily, which might be why you're seeing the tip burn and funky green color. Also, excess Na can be mistaken for K by the plant and absorbed instead. What's your temp and humidity like?

Thanks for the confirmation on the pH. I'll keep an eye on the runoff here.

Temps are 76-78f, humidity sitting around 42-45% - so roughly 1.7vpd or thereabout. I'm coming up on the tail end up week 6 of flower here I think.