Questions for the experts about F1, F2's and their crosses.

[andytoker]

hey farmers, thanks for looking :sun

so as i understand it,
crossing 2 stable strains/ibl's will give an f1 hybrid that is pretty uniform.
and making more seeds from these f1's will give f2's which will show that whole range of variation between the original 2 strains used for the f1
(correct me if i'm wrong)

but what happens if you use a 'winner' f1 and then make a cross with a totally different strain/ibl ? - does the same 'f2 variation' thing happen or does the f1 then count as a 'strain' in its own right as far as the cross is concerned? will you get as much variation as an f2?

and what about crossing 2 different f1's - does this count as an f2 and have huge variation or is it different because you use 2 different f1's?

many successful strains seem to use an f1 as half of a cross or even 2 f1's - how predictable are the results compared to crossing 2 ibl's ?

(you will realise by now i ask a lot of questions :mmm)

lastly,a more specific question, i have a decent blueberry mother plant that is very stable, no herms, but if i use this for making some seeds might it pass on the blueberry herm tendancies to its offspring as a 'recessive' strait even though it is stable itself? - bb seems to have been used in many hybrids - do these have a tendancy to herm like bb itself??
(and just to complicate matters,my excellent bb mum was from a dp feminised seed, i have read that you shouldnt use feminised seeds for breeding but i cant quite inderstand why if the seeds were produced by reversing the female - why will that create herms further down the line?? or is it inadvisable because of the reduced gene pool?

i realise that i will learn the answers through experience but i have a very small space for growing so i want to do as much research as possible first in order to try and make the right decisions!

many thanks
a.:sun

 

[CBF]

QUOTE=andytoker;128802]hey farmers, thanks for looking :sun

so as i understand it,
crossing 2 stable strains/ibl's will give an f1 hybrid that is pretty uniform.

any 2 lines crossed will give a F1, as you say usin IBls as parents will produce a stable nice lookin F1. usin other non stablized seedlines will give more variation.


and making more seeds from these f1's will give f2's which will show that whole range of variation between the original 2 strains used for the f1
(correct me if i'm wrong)your right

but what happens if you use a 'winner' f1 and then make a cross with a totally different strain/ibl ? - does the same 'f2 variation' thing happen or does the f1 then count as a 'strain' in its own right as far as the cross is concerned? will you get as much variation as an f2?

if you use a F1 seedline, with a unrealted line your variation will depend on the breeding of said lines. a F1 hybrid should show more variation in the F2, then it would if it was bred for a few generations.

and what about crossing 2 different f1's - does this count as an f2 and have huge variation or is it different because you use 2 different f1's?ok bro your gettin me confused, if you took 2 seedlines that were both F1, and crossed um you would have a F2.

many successful strains seem to use an f1 as half of a cross or even 2 f1's - how predictable are the results compared to crossing 2 ibl's ?nothings predictable, if you dont know the heritage/work done on the F1s, you cant possibly have a clue as to what will come of it.

(you will realise by now i ask a lot of questions :mmm)

lastly,a more specific question, i have a decent blueberry mother plant that is very stable, no herms, but if i use this for making some seeds might it pass on the blueberry herm tendancies to its offspring as a 'recessive' strait even though it is stable itself? - bb seems to have been used in many hybrids - do these have a tendancy to herm like bb itself??
(and just to complicate matters,my excellent bb mum was from a dp feminised seed, i have read that you shouldnt use feminised seeds for breeding but i cant quite inderstand why if the seeds were produced by reversing the female - why will that create herms further down the line?? or is it inadvisable because of the reduced gene pool?

i realise that i will learn the answers through experience but i have a very small space for growing so i want to do as much research as possible first in order to try and make the right decisions!

you dont know if your BB is stable or not, as you have never outcrossed it. just cause you dont see female flowers, thats not the only trait that makes a plant stable. when you say stable what do ya mean?

could be stable for any number of traits. run that plant under some erratic light conditions and tell me it dont bust out some male flowers. if your talkin stable as in IBL, were it breeds with certain traits carried over each time out, i dont think you can say that about Blueberry.

many thanks
a.:sun[/QUOTE]

 

[andytoker]

thanks aka! - so to recap what you say, any f1 crossed to another f1 (even 2 different f1 hybrids crossed with each other) will produce f2's .

as for the BB, what i meant 'stable' was just that it seems reliably female having grown it inside and out, no male flowers ( from what i have read this is the common problem with blueberry - hermaphrodites ) it is also vigorous and high yielding.
what i was wondering is if this stability might get passed on or if it might carry the genetic 'baggage' of the BB strain (herms) even though it does not herm itself.
from what you say the only way to find out is to outcross it!
i spose bb cant be that bad as a p1 because there are many bb crosses on the market.

what's your take on breeding from feminised seeds? bad idea or try it and see?

many thanks for your time
a.

 

[bicycle racer]

i cant see how 2 f-1s of distinctly different lineage or genes could produce f-2 variables in the first batch of seeds grown out as the dna is very different. the results would be a four way cross all showing uniform shares of traits from the 4 contributers to the genes of the new seeds produced. the second run of seeds after crossing the f-1's of this 4 way cross would show the normal random charecteristics of an f-2 the same as any f-2 that contained only 2 breeding strains.

 

[CBF]

thanks aka! - so to recap what you say, any f1 crossed to another f1 (even 2 different f1 hybrids crossed with each other) will produce f2's . yes bro thats correct.

as for the BB, what i meant 'stable' was just that it seems reliably female having grown it inside and out, no male flowers ( from what i have read this is the common problem with blueberry - hermaphrodites ) it is also vigorous and high yielding.
what i was wondering is if this stability might get passed on or if it might carry the genetic 'baggage' of the BB strain (herms) even though it does not herm itself.
from what you say the only way to find out is to outcross it!
i spose bb cant be that bad as a p1 because there are many bb crosses on the market.

what's your take on breeding from feminised seeds? bad idea or try it and see?havent grown Blueberry, but plenty of friends have, and its always some love it some dont. i messed with feminizin awhile back, never thought much of it, but didnt do alot of it. plenty of growers have had great luck with um.

i think if ya have good strong genetics, and know how to fem/reverse plants well, you should do fine. i dont think reversin a plant increases the hermie tendency, its there or its not.

when ya make your cross, just have another plant to hit with that BB plant, dont matter what it is, ya just wanna see what the plant throughs with 2 different plants. then ya can see what your BB will toss in most outcrosses.

many thanks for your time
a.

your welcome bro anytime
aka

 

[andytoker]

i cant see how 2 f-1s of distinctly different lineage or genes could produce f-2 variables in the first batch of seeds grown out as the dna is very different. the results would be a four way cross all showing uniform shares of traits from the 4 contributers to the genes of the new seeds produced. the second run of seeds after crossing the f-1's of this 4 way cross would show the normal random charecteristics of an f-2 the same as any f-2 that contained only 2 breeding strains.

this is what i was wondering about - so many strains seem to be an f1 crossed with an ibl or another f1 - if the seeds then behaved like f2's then surely there would be too much variation to make them popular?

anyone else want to weigh in on this?

i just wonder if i should be looking mainly to ibl's for my parent plants or is i should also be considering good phenos of f1's :sun

 

[Rural_GrowOp]

The way I understand it is the initial cross of two parents(P1) produce F1's. If you further cross two of the same F1's then you get F2's. If you cross an F1 to another non related strain then that will give you a new line of F1's. If the P1 is a hybrid or polyhibrid then your F1 will show more variation. Hermies are a genetic trait that are passed on from parents that have the hermie gene.

Also the F1 generation will show you the dominant genes in the cross while the F2+ generations will start to show the more recessive traits.

Hope that doesn't complicate things further. There is a good thread in the breeders lab on Mendelian Dynamics that explains this very well.

 

[bicycle racer]

what rural typed is how i understand it would work. to genetically different sets of f-1s crossed would create a new 4 way cross that were f-1s as well.

 

[greenthumbdanny]

Very informative post.. Thank you everybody..

GTD

 

[andytoker]

The way I understand it is the initial cross of two parents(P1) produce F1's. If you further cross two of the same F1's then you get F2's. If you cross an F1 to another non related strain then that will give you a new line of F1's. If the P1 is a hybrid or polyhibrid then your F1 will show more variation. Hermies are a genetic trait that are passed on from parents that have the hermie gene.

Also the F1 generation will show you the dominant genes in the cross while the F2+ generations will start to show the more recessive traits.

Hope that doesn't complicate things further. There is a good thread in the breeders lab on Mendelian Dynamics that explains this very well.

thanks R_G
that really helps - ive read the mendell thing a while ago but it's about time i read it again!:star

 

[ReelBusy1]

Very informative post.. Thank you everybody..

GTD

ditto