Questions on decarboxylation during smoking

[Purpz]

Most in the know are familiar with the term decarboxylation - relevant here because THCA is not psychoactive and needs to be converted, i.e. ‘decarboxylated’ into psychoactive THC. This happens spontaneously over a long time or can be catalyzed by heat. But I’ve read during the smoking process cannabinoids undergo a range of oxidative catabolic modifications and can turn into unpredictable compounds. I’m interested to understand more about this, because it seems only a fraction of CBD and THC ends up in your system when you smoke it. Or is this just hype generated by drug companies who are trying to monetize weed?

Please feel free to move if this isn't the right forum..

 

[salmon]

Vaporization of marijuana avoids the degradation of cannabinoids by pyrolysis. Also it is quite possible a vaporizer eliminates or substantially reduces the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and other combustion-generated toxins commonly found in cannabis smoke, as they form at the higher temperatures of pyrolysis.

~S

 

[bluebubble]

wtf are polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons?

 

[salmon]

Bad things. I'll let you read up on them yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycyclic_aromatic_hydrocarbon

~S

 

[Graywolf]

Most in the know are familiar with the term decarboxylation - relevant here because THCA is not psychoactive and needs to be converted, i.e. ‘decarboxylated’ into psychoactive THC. This happens spontaneously over a long time or can be catalyzed by heat. But I’ve read during the smoking process cannabinoids undergo a range of oxidative catabolic modifications and can turn into unpredictable compounds. I’m interested to understand more about this, because it seems only a fraction of CBD and THC ends up in your system when you smoke it. Or is this just hype generated by drug companies who are trying to monetize weed?

Please feel free to move if this isn't the right forum..

As S notes, when you set fire to the aromatic hydrocarbons, you don't always completely combust them, and by only burning off segments, they can be turned into other aromatic hydrocarbons, some to them carcinogenic. Vaporization avoids that issue.

There are four common ways of administering medications, orally, topically, through the lungs, and as suppositories. All work, some more efficiently than others.

They also produce different effects, because of the uptake speeds and what the liver does with the cannabinoids once they enter the bloodstream.

Inhaling is the fastest uptake, but least efficient from the standpoint of how much was administered versus how much was up taken, because that huge cloud of vapor that you exhale goes to waste.

 

[Dunge]

wtf are polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons?

many circles (rings of carbon atoms), smelly, and made from water and carbon.

 

[Abel]

Damn. I’m assuming tobacco produces the same stuff. So why is smoking weed portrayed as so much healthier than tobacco?

 

[ethnoman]

A good vaporizer can control optimum temps and prevent pyrolysis - the portion of its THC content is destroyed by pyrolysis before reaching your lungs. There’s a ton of info out there on studies looking into the actually bioavailability of THC when smoked as opposed to being ingested or vaporized at lower temps. There are varying figures, most look at blood plasma levels.

The bioavailability of smoked THC is highly variable, ranging from 2% to 56%, and is commonly reported to average around 15-20%. Heavy users appear to be more efficient, inhaling an average of 25%, compared to roughly 12% for occasional users.

Here’s the source, a bit dense but a good read.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689518/

 

[Gandalfalfa]

Drug companies developing cannabinoid based drugs will try to monetize weed simply because they are business but that doesn’t mean it’s just hype. What are your sources? My rudimentary understanding on the matter is that THCA is subject to any number of chemical modifications, but decarboxylation leads to THC. THC is then subject to various other modifications which effectively render it useless (from a psychoactive stand point). Oxidation into CBN is considerably by far the most well characterized process. Pyrolysis of THC also involves oxygen but at much higher temps.

 

[Plasma]

Low level heat exacerbates the oxidation of THC. I would like to know how much THC is autoxidized into CBN when using a volcano. Something I’ve never considered until now.

 

[Supercharge]

@Purpz, this should be of relevance to your question.

In raw, fresh plant material, THC-A represents the vast majority (80 – 99%) of total THC . (Total THC is a term frequently used on cannabis labels in the gray market, as a convenient term to describe the combination of psychoactive THC molecules and not-yet psychoactive THC-A molecules.) As cannabis decays over time or is subjected to heat, THC-A is broken down into THC by a process called decarboxylation. Accordingly, marijuana eaten raw is only mildly psychoactive. Popular methods of ingesting marijuana can also be viewed as convenient methods of decarboxylation, including smoking, cooking, and vaporization. So while usable marijuana might regularly contain between 5 and 20% THC-A, infused marijuana products are intended to contain none at all. (However, sloppy infusion processes can result in incomplete decarboxylation, “wasting” the cannabinoids that will be ingested by the consumer in relatively non-psychoactive forms.) The rate at which decarboxylation converts THC-A to THC is variable and less than 100% efficient. Even under ideal temperature conditions, the end product (THC) represents at most a 70% conversion of the original THC-A, and the remainder breaks down into a number of other insignificant byproducts.

THCA is not known to be psychoactive, except indirectly as the precursor to THC. When THCA is ingested prior to heating, it does not yield psychoactive effects until metabolic processes convert the chemical to THC; even then, rates of conversion to THC after ingestion are limited.

 

[Supercharge]

CBD and CBD-A share the same relationship as do THC and THC-A. CBD occurs at very low levels in raw cannabis, roughly ten percent of its levels in decarboxylated product. CBDA has no known psychoactive effects or interactions. CBDA does not activate CB1 or CB2 receptors and has negligible effects against multiple cancers. It has significant anti-inflammatory properties, reportedly more so than all other minor cannabinoids. CBD-A has no direct psychoactive effects; however, it has a potential for decarboxylating into CBD. The data on CBD psychoactivity is complex. It has no marked psychoactivity in and of itself, but it is purported to moderate many of the effects of THC. CBD appears to reduce anxiety associated with THC, possibly by blocking THC from binding to CB2 receptors (making it an inverse agonist). This interaction may explain an apparently lower rate of psychotic episodes for consumers using high-CBD cannabis, as well as how CBD mitigates THC’s negative effects on memory. CBD may also block the formation of 11-OH-THC (a powerful psychoactive metabolite of THC) in the liver, but there is controversy over whether CBD alters the pharmacokinetics (how the body interacts with the chemical) of THC. CBD is often regarded as the most medically promising cannabinoid. It has shown promise as a treatment for a range of disorders and diseases, including cancer, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia, addiction, and epilepsy. It has been claimed to have anti-psychotic, anti-hyperalgesic, anti-convulsant, neuroprotective, anti-ischemic, anti-emetic, anti- depressive, and anti-proliferative effects.

 

[caveman4.20]

@Supercharge do you know of a credible source for the anti-inflammatory effects. My doctor argues with me saying that pot does not have anti-inflammatory effects

 

[Supercharge]

@Supercharge do you know of a credible source for the anti-inflammatory effects. My doctor argues with me saying that pot does not have anti-inflammatory effects

Here are a few articles I found on the subject.

http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v5/n5/abs/nri1602.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcb.10291/abstract
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-004-0871-3
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168365903004152


Keep in mind that several of these studies are based on animals models, and others only indiciate the potential for use as an anti-inflammatory. Research on the subject is still more or less in its infancy. It is promising, but it's not set in stone yet.

 

[caveman4.20]

Danks!