Questions on keeping Moms (and additional words to reach minimum title length)

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mcompton1973

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OK,
I wont get into all the details (unless you need them) but long story short I have a small commercial grow in Oklahoma. I lost my main grower and now I am doing it myself (I used to mainly do the compliance and sales side).

I have 16 moms.

I dont think the way he was handling the moms was right and I need to start from scratch I believe.
Long story short, moms look like they were not getting enough nutes (purple stems and yellow leaves)

Here is the setup.
The moms start in 1 gallon pots, go to 5 gallon.
They are under HLG 650 b spec lights....but only on about 30% for 18 hours a day
They are in Mother Earth Coco perlite (its a 70/30)
they get watered once a day or every other day if too wet
I have a 55 gallon barrel that I run RO water into and then add nutrients then a pump, hose with a wand on the end.

It appears there was very little pruning, trimming, of the moms. They all are basically tall, narrow plants that just grow straight up.
(we do not currently have any kind of trellis or netting etc...he said because if you do that, its to hard to cut clones....but the way it is, There are only a few branches they are long and skinny and dont have a lot of great clones to be taken.)

We grow everything in the grow room in the coco....but they are 3 gallon pots.
I feel like the coco is not the right medium for moms as we can not water frequently like we do the flower room (its on irrigation 5 times a day)
I assume lights are ok since I am not pushing them
I am guessing the moms are not getting enough nutrients...but maybe because of the coco holding too much salts with infrequent watering etc.

OK. SO the questions.
1. I feel like the main thing that needs changed is a move to soil for the moms since they get less frequent water
2. I assume any veg nutes will work since I am not trying to really push growth.
3. Same about the lights...They dont need really high intensity since they are not being pushed?
4. should I be doing any type of training or trimming to help maximize the number of smaller branches usable for clones?
5. anything else you see that I should be paying attention to?
 
Trixie

Trixie

366
93
No training, just keep taking the tops off the plants and don't change the soil of the Mothers you have now. If you want a new soil mix then grow the new cuttings in the mix you want. Most clones do best if they are rooted in the same substrate as their mothers because of the Mother's adaptation is passed on to the clones. IF you switch substrates you may need to use a mix of 50/50 of the coco to the new mix for the clones to adapt to the new substrate.
 
InsaneM

InsaneM

75
18
I'm no expert here but the plant that I'm growing right now is from seed and have been in 100% coco coir the whole time. No problems here except for a few pest bugs here and there.
 
Ponky

Ponky

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Do all the strains sell? Which mothers seem the most robust? And how many clones you need? And how many weeks is your rotation? And are have you had fungus on anything?
 
M

mcompton1973

3
3
No training, just keep taking the tops off the plants and don't change the soil of the Mothers you have now. If you want a new soil mix then grow the new cuttings in the mix you want. Most clones do best if they are rooted in the same substrate as their mothers because of the Mother's adaptation is passed on to the clones. IF you switch substrates you may need to use a mix of 50/50 of the coco to the new mix for the clones to adapt to the new substrate.
I was planning what you suggest....get rid of the old moms and start over....not try and change what the moms are in now. I wondered about that with moms in soil and clones in coco but wasnt sure if that was a real thing or not.

Do all the strains sell? Which mothers seem the most robust? And how many clones you need? And how many weeks is your rotation? And are have you had fungus on anything?
We have 2 rooms, we usually run 5 strains per room...so at any given time we have 10 strains in flower. Usually we clone...then veg in 1 gallon pots 1-2 weeks and then transplant to 3 gallons for 1-2 weeks and then flip to flower. Each room has about 150-210 plants (I am trying to figure out the best # of plants per table etc). so 30-42 per table (a table is 20' long and 4' wide in the flower room). We have delt with PM in the past, but we have that gone now and on an IPM schedule. Yes all the strains sell. Here in Oklahoma at least, people want new strains all the time. So we have a few that we always have moms of (AK-47 and Wedding Cake etc....just things we've had good luck with.) and then others that we rotate. The goal is to not have the same strain back to back...but be able to bring favorites back every 2nd or 3rd round.

I will have to be honest I cant say which are most robust because I have not been able to personally see them as much until just recently.
 
Ponky

Ponky

3,941
263
I would use enough light in veg to make sure the plant stays compact. You can find a good rotation of strains here on the forum. So you could get rid of your under performers on a regular basis. I wouldn't change anything until you've gone through a grow or two other than get rid of plants you think are no good. And go to a clone to waste set up if you can. So you're tossing a few clones for everyone you actually grow to the finish. To select only the most robust cuts. But I would do a grow thread and take pics. And check out the guys here with clones and seeds. Read the reviews people leave. I'm sure you'll find what you need.
 
GreenGalaxyFarm

GreenGalaxyFarm

1,700
263
1. I feel like the main thing that needs changed is a move to soil for the moms since they get less frequent water
you are correct in your thinking, mothers in soil require much less water, especially since you can drop all other parameters when it comes to mothers
2. I assume any veg nutes will work since I am not trying to really push growth.
any?, what are you feeding currently, they should not have yellowing. you also need to sort this out before taking any additional cuttings
3. Same about the lights...They dont need really high intensity since they are not being pushed?
literally keep mine at 250ppfd(increasing in preparation of taking cuttings) 18hours light, any more and i find they grow too fast for the amount of cuttings i am taking. you will find taking cuttings regardless of consumer need but rather just to maintain canopy.
you however do need to keep up with market demand i need to find a balance and consider which cultivars sell at what rate.
4. should I be doing any type of training or trimming to help maximize the number of smaller branches usable for clones?
for sure, try to maintain an even canopy as far as possibly, easily done by topping
5. anything else you see that I should be paying attention to?
best of luck to your operation!
 
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GreenGalaxyFarm

GreenGalaxyFarm

1,700
263
No training, just keep taking the tops off the plants and don't change the soil of the Mothers you have now. If you want a new soil mix then grow the new cuttings in the mix you want. Most clones do best if they are rooted in the same substrate as their mothers because of the Mother's adaptation is passed on to the clones. IF you switch substrates you may need to use a mix of 50/50 of the coco to the new mix for the clones to adapt to the new substrate.
you can go from 100 percent coco to a balanced soil mix no issues.
 
GreenGalaxyFarm

GreenGalaxyFarm

1,700
263
We have 2 rooms, we usually run 5 strains per room...so at any given time we have 10 strains in flower.
you would do better initially by running more in lines with a monoculture crop. not saying run only one but 10 seems excessive, and for the experienced. unless you have found them to react to your parameters the same.
 
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Moshmen

Moshmen

8,218
313
No training, just keep taking the tops off the plants and don't change the soil of the Mothers you have now. If you want a new soil mix then grow the new cuttings in the mix you want. Most clones do best if they are rooted in the same substrate as their mothers because of the Mother's adaptation is passed on to the clones. IF you switch substrates you may need to use a mix of 50/50 of the coco to the new mix for the clones to adapt to the new substrate.
No true ! Clones could care less what you stick them in
 
GrilledCheeze

GrilledCheeze

183
63
No true ! Clones could care less what you stick them in
You are correct however we just watched an episode of Green Planet where they described how using the mycelium network in the soil of a forest floor, a mother tree can selectively transfer some of her excess nutrients to specifically her own offspring in order to help them get a good start. That doesn't apply here but it blew my mind none the less.
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
OK,
I wont get into all the details (unless you need them) but long story short I have a small commercial grow in Oklahoma. I lost my main grower and now I am doing it myself (I used to mainly do the compliance and sales side).

I have 16 moms.

I dont think the way he was handling the moms was right and I need to start from scratch I believe.
Long story short, moms look like they were not getting enough nutes (purple stems and yellow leaves)

Here is the setup.
The moms start in 1 gallon pots, go to 5 gallon.
They are under HLG 650 b spec lights....but only on about 30% for 18 hours a day
They are in Mother Earth Coco perlite (its a 70/30)
they get watered once a day or every other day if too wet
I have a 55 gallon barrel that I run RO water into and then add nutrients then a pump, hose with a wand on the end.

It appears there was very little pruning, trimming, of the moms. They all are basically tall, narrow plants that just grow straight up.
(we do not currently have any kind of trellis or netting etc...he said because if you do that, its to hard to cut clones....but the way it is, There are only a few branches they are long and skinny and dont have a lot of great clones to be taken.)

We grow everything in the grow room in the coco....but they are 3 gallon pots.
I feel like the coco is not the right medium for moms as we can not water frequently like we do the flower room (its on irrigation 5 times a day)
I assume lights are ok since I am not pushing them
I am guessing the moms are not getting enough nutrients...but maybe because of the coco holding too much salts with infrequent watering etc.

OK. SO the questions.
1. I feel like the main thing that needs changed is a move to soil for the moms since they get less frequent water
2. I assume any veg nutes will work since I am not trying to really push growth.
3. Same about the lights...They dont need really high intensity since they are not being pushed?
4. should I be doing any type of training or trimming to help maximize the number of smaller branches usable for clones?
5. anything else you see that I should be paying attention to?

First off, I disagree with the idea of training the moms. I would pull the branches out and down to force the shoots from the branches to grow straight up. This alone allows for many more usable clone cuts. Here's an example:

Mother


Second, you can take new cuttings from the plants you currently have and grow those into your new moms. You can flip the moms to 12/12 and grow them out if you like. The new moms will take up much less room and allow you to easily switch into soil with the newly rooted clones.

The plant in the picture above produced 48 clones before I flipped and flowered her. Of those 48 clones, I kept 24 and gave 24 away.

Third, the yellowing you spoke of could be any combination of over/under watering, magnesium/calcium issues and so on. It's a sign that your previous cultivation specialist wasn't all that great at keeping the plants healthy. This doesn't mean that you can't get those moms healthy because you can. The question is ... is it worth the effort? It would take 6-8 weeks to bring a plant from seed to producing cuts like the plant in my picture above. You can clone new cuttings in about 10 days and work from there to get your cuttings healthy.
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
@MIGrampaUSA what light and humidity is she under?
"She" is history now. I flowered her and harvested her just this past weekend. Light in that picture is a pair of 240w (3500K color temp) Kingbrite Quantum boards running at about 30%. Humidity would range between 45% and 50% in the grow area all my tents are in. I never specifically measured the RH in the cabinet that the plant is in but I'm sure its close to that ... maybe 50%-55% rh where the plant is at.

She gave us her babies ... 48 clones. I gave 24 away and I have 15 in late flower and 9 in early flower. Check out my grow if you want to see more.
 
2Bad

2Bad

3,418
263
"She" is history now. I flowered her and harvested her just this past weekend. Light in that picture is a pair of 240w (3500K color temp) Kingbrite Quantum boards running at about 30%. Humidity would range between 45% and 50% in the grow area all my tents are in. I never specifically measured the RH in the cabinet that the plant is in but I'm sure its close to that ... maybe 50%-55% rh where the plant is at.

She gave us her babies ... 48 clones. I gave 24 away and I have 15 in late flower and 9 in early flower. Check out my grow if you want to see more.
Okie Ill take a look at yours! I tagged you in another post if you can take a look at it for me!
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
Okie Ill take a look at yours! I tagged you in another post if you can take a look at it for me!
I'm not sure which post that is ... I run into a number of your posts on different threads. Can you post a direct link either here or in DM?
 
RootsRuler

RootsRuler

2,389
263
I've worked both as a room lead and as a master grower in a few legal ops in California. I've seen this happen hundreds of times where the master grower bails. It sucks balls for all on the crew. I hope he/she at least gave you SOME notice so that you could prep the crew to cover most of his/her duties while you search for another master grower.

As far as your mothers you could remother with new cuts but before any of that you need to get the mothers you're going to be possibly taking cuts for new mothers off of healthy. I've seen lots of growers think they can make a sick plant do healthy things and in almost every case they've failed. Rarely have I seen a cut from a sick plant survive.

You could try and screen them and get lots of side shoots for more harvestable clone material but if they're tall and lanky I would take cuts off of each top and prune them down at the same time. This should have the same effect as topping which will promote side branching which will give you more possible clone sites once they fill in. I would try and keep them where they're at in coco and not disturb them. If you decided that you wanted to cut a new mother off the old one then you could plant the rooted cut in dirt and you wouldn't have to worry so much about media affecting your mothers as dirt is WAY more forgiving.

When I design and set up a grow op my mothers always sit in dirt/coco/perlite. I've found it to be the easiest and most forgiving of all the media.

I get the whole wanting to have a variety of product for retail but there needs to be a balance. Too many cultivars going off at the same time is a recipe for disaster. I would try and limit my flavors to around 6 at any one time. Not sure of your room configuration or the rotation schedule you need to follow or the commitments you've made to your distributor so your situation may be able to juggle more flavors but in most of the larger grow ops I've worked in they've all tended to specialize in a few particular cultivars by optimizing both yield and bag appeal. When I was at Jungle Boys they had warehouses where they would grow 5 or 6 strains only. I got to work at their main grow where they were growing their newest cultivars. When I was there it was all about wedding cake and all the other cake iterations the botanist had crossed. I also worked briefly for another west coast op that set up one of the largest indoor grow facilities on the west coast. They were in the process of getting all their licenses approved so at the time we only had about 130,000 plants going on in the rooms that had been approved. They have a capacity for 250,000 plants when all the rooms are up and running.

Not 100% on Oklahoma weed law but I'm sure it's very similar to Californias where they have to have licenses for EVERY phase of your grow from seed to store? You obviously have a cultivation license but are you allowed to harvest or transport your product? When Cali was trying to formulate their set of laws I worked at one legal grow where they couldn't cut down the girls because their license only allowed them to grow the plants not harvest them. We had a company that would come in and cut down the plants, transport them to their facility, trim them and package them. From there they would be transported to the distributor and on to retail.
 
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MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
I've worked both as a room lead and as a master grower in a few legal ops in California. I've seen this happen hundreds of times where the master grower bails. It sucks balls for all on the crew. I hope he/she at least gave you SOME notice so that you could prep the crew to cover most of his/her duties while you search for another master grower.

As far as your mothers you could remother with new cuts but before any of that you need to get the mothers you're going to be possibly taking cuts for new mothers off of healthy. I've seen lots of growers think they can make a sick plant do healthy things and in almost every case they've failed. Rarely have I seen a cut from a sick plant survive.

You could try and screen them and get lots of side shoots for more harvestable clone material but if they're tall and lanky I would take cuts off of each top and prune them down at the same time. This should have the same effect as topping which will promote side branching which will give you more possible clone sites once they fill in. I would try and keep them where they're at in coco and not disturb them. If you decided that you wanted to cut a new mother off the old one then you could plant the rooted cut in dirt and you wouldn't have to worry so much about media affecting your mothers as dirt is WAY more forgiving.

When I design and set up a grow op my mothers always sit in dirt/coco/perlite. I've found it to be the easiest and most forgiving of all the media.

I get the whole wanting to have a variety of product for retail but there needs to be a balance. Too many cultivars going off at the same time is a recipe for disaster. I would try and limit my flavors to around 6 at any one time. Not sure of your room configuration or the rotation schedule you need to follow or the commitments you've made to your distributor so your situation may be able to juggle more flavors but in most of the larger grow ops I've worked in they've all tended to specialize in a few particular cultivars by optimizing both yield and bag appeal. When I was at Jungle Boys they had warehouses where they would grow 5 or 6 strains only. I got to work at their main grow where they were growing their newest cultivars. When I was there it was all about wedding cake and all the other cake iterations the botanist had crossed. I also worked briefly for another west coast op that set up one of the largest indoor grow facilities on the west coast. They were in the process of getting all their licenses approved so at the time we only had about 130,000 plants going on in the rooms that had been approved. They have a capacity for 250,000 plants when all the rooms are up and running.

Not 100% on Oklahoma weed law but I'm sure it's very similar to Californias where they have to have licenses for EVERY phase of your grow from seed to store? You obviously have a cultivation license but are you allowed to harvest or transport your product? When Cali was trying to formulate their set of laws I worked at one legal grow where they couldn't cut down the girls because their license only allowed them to grow the plants not harvest them. We had a company that would come in and cut down the plants, transport them to their facility, trim them and package them. From there they would be transported to the distributor and on to retail.

It's hard to say anything about the OP's situation without pictures of the plants in question. They could be a lost cause, but they also might not be. Hopefully the OP will respond with pictures/more information.
 
MIGrampaUSA

MIGrampaUSA

3,732
263
Agreed although I have to assume that if he is a licensed grow op he had to have someone in there that was at least somewhat competent.

I also agree for the most part. However, at least here in Michigan things are changing. You can get an advanced cultivation certificate by taking an online course ... and never having ever touched a live cannabis plant. They have the education to navigate the legal grow environment with zero actual skills or even hands on experience growing it.
 
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